AMD 5800X3D, the new King for flight simulators?

[Digitalvole]

3 hours ago, Hiob said:

And my suggestion isn’t necessarily to save money, but to go for 5900x or 5950x instead.

I’ve got a 5900X already so the pub will probably get that money

[Hiob]

22 minutes ago, Digitalvole said:

I’ve got a 5900X already so the pub will probably get that money

If you have a 5900x, than it would 100% positively be a waste of money!

[VirusAM]

21 hours ago, Hiob said:

If you have a 5900x, than it would 100% positively be a waste of money!

This is probably true, but who have a 5900x and an AM4 motherboard has no upgrade path.

So if the 5800x3d is so good for VR Flight Sims like DCS, where a ms less can be the difference between full FPS vs Reprojection I don't see it too much a waste of money.

 

Edited August 1, 2022 by VirusAM

[Hiob]

10 minutes ago, VirusAM said:

This is probably true, but who have a 5900x and an AM4 motherboard has no upgrade path.

So if the 5800x3d is so good for VR Flight Sims like DCS, where a ms less can be the difference between full FPS vs Reprojection I don't see to much a waste of money.

 

Yes, that is why I stated multiple times, that a X3D may be a good choice IF your only concern is flight simming. But there are downsides and for most other applications, people will be better off with a 5900X/5950X. You know, some people don't use there PC exclusively for VR/Flight-sims.

[VirusAM]

1 hour ago, Hiob said:

Yes, that is why I stated multiple times, that a X3D may be a good choice IF your only concern is flight simming. But there are downsides and for most other applications, people will be better off with a 5900X/5950X. You know, some people don't use there PC exclusively for VR/Flight-sims.

Yeah I perfectly understand and agree with you. This is why I specified Flight Simming and especially VR.

We also need to see what Multicore and Vulkan will change in this regard. In that scenario the 5900x/5950x cores count could give us an upper hand.

[Hiob]

7 minutes ago, VirusAM said:

Yeah I perfectly understand and agree with you. This is why I specified Flight Simming and especially VR.

We also need to see what Multicore and Vulkan will change in this regard. In that scenario the 5900x/5950x cores count could give us an upper hand.

If the 5800X3D were more reasonable priced, it could be a less controversial option, but as of now, I consider it as a tech-demo for absolute enthusiasts (which has yet to prove its longevity btw.).
 

[nikoel]

34 minutes ago, VirusAM said:

Yeah I perfectly understand and agree with you. This is why I specified Flight Simming and especially VR.

We also need to see what Multicore and Vulkan will change in this regard. In that scenario the 5900x/5950x cores count could give us an upper hand.

lol. No it won't -

There are hardly any games out there that utilise more than 6 cores/12 threads, even 5800X3D is overkill in it's measly 8 core count - at least for now. Except for synthetic benchmarks and productivity there is no scenario where 5900X/5950X will outdo a 5800X3D in any game/sim

There are very few people out there with 8+ core processors. So game developers will be continuing optimising their games accordingly 

By the time this changes, 5800X3D will be obsolete and all of us would have moved on - don't get me wrong 5900/5950X are amazing processors and upgrading from them to a 5800X3D is likely not worth it for most. However, for someone purchasing a new processor the same argument can be reversed back on them. I don't miss the 4 cores that I lost in the transition; whilst video exporting is taking a little longer (I think?), the playback and decoding is about the same and DCS makes me a lot more happy than it did before

The next generation will come with costs of a new Motherboard and DDR5 Ram

Edited August 1, 2022 by nikoel

[VirusAM]

7 minutes ago, nikoel said:

lol. No it won't -

There are hardly any games out there that utilise more than 6 cores/12 threads, even 5800X3D is overkill in it's measly 8 core count - at least for now. Except for synthetic benchmarks and productivity there is no scenario where 5900X/5950X will outdo a 5800X3D in any game/sim

There are very few people out there with 8+ core processors. So game developers will be continuing optimising their games accordingly 

By the time this changes, 5800X3D will be obsolete and all of us would have moved on - don't get me wrong 5900/5950X are amazing processors and upgrading from them to a 5800X3D is likely not worth it for most. However, for someone purchasing a new processor the same argument can be reversed back on them. I don't miss the 4 cores that I lost in the transition; whilst video exporting is taking a little longer (I think?), the playback and decoding is about the same and DCS makes me a lot more happy than it did before

The next generation will come with costs of a new Motherboard and DDR5 Ram

 

Yeah, that's exactly why I am (vaguely) considering this "upgrade", and that's because I talked of upgrade path.

In the end, this PC was not meant to be used for flight sims only, but at the moment it is...anyway it is my main free time occupation...so it could be worth it.

[Hiob]

1 minute ago, nikoel said:

lol. No it won't -

There are hardly any games out there that utilise more than 6 cores/12 threads, even 5800X3D is overkill in it's measly 8 core count - at least for now. Except for synthetic benchmarks and productivity there is no scenario where 5900X/5950X will outdo a 5800X3D in any game/sim

There are very few people out there with 8+ core processors. So game developers will be continuing optimising their games accordingly 

By the time this changes, 5800X3D will be obsolete and all of us would have moved on - don't get me wrong 5900/5950X are amazing processors and upgrading from them to a 5800X3D is likely not worth it for most. However, for someone purchasing a new processor the same argument can be reversed back on them. I don't miss the 4 cores that I lost in the transition; whilst video exporting is taking a little longer (I think?), the playback and decoding is about the same and DCS makes me a lot more happy than it did before

The next generation will come with costs of a new Motherboard and DDR5 Ram

 

It's not only the core-count that sets the X3D back against the 5900X e.g. You are right, core-count above eight won't help much probably (don't forget though, that there is running windows with several processes and also TrackIR, Discord, Tac-View e.g. that can use cores on top of the game), but one main disadvantage of the X3D is it's poor clock speed, that may or may not be compensated by it's larger cache - depending on the application.

[VirusAM]

1 minute ago, Hiob said:

It's not only the core-count that sets the X3D back against the 5900X e.g. You are right, core-count above eight won't help much probably (don't forget though, that there is running windows with several processes and also TrackIR, Discord, Tac-View e.g. that can use cores on top of the game), but one main disadvantage of the X3D is it's poor clock speed, that may or may not be compensated by it's larger cache - depending on the application.

How much slower?I didn't follow too much the 5800X3D specs, I am starting to be interested now that I upgraded to an 6900xt

[Hiob]

1 minute ago, VirusAM said:

Yeah, that's exactly why I am (vaguely) considering this "upgrade", and that's because I talked of upgrade path.

In the end, this PC was not meant to be used for flight sims only, but at the moment it is...anyway it is my main free time occupation...so it could be worth it.

Well, if you have DCS-VR in mind, it may indeed be a meaningful upgrade. From my testings the 5800X3D gave 20-25% improvement in CPU-Frametimes. Nevertheless - with my Valve Index and settings, I was still GPU bound most of the time and so, GPU-Frametimes improved only negligible. But that depends strongly of your settings for post-processing, I assume.

[Hiob]

5 minutes ago, VirusAM said:

How much slower?I didn't follow too much the 5800X3D specs, I am starting to be interested now that I upgraded to an 6900xt

about 300 MHz below a 5900X.

[VirusAM]

2 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Well, if you have DCS-VR in mind, it may indeed be a meaningful upgrade. From my testings the 5800X3D gave 20-25% improvement in CPU-Frametimes. Nevertheless - with my Valve Index and settings, I was still GPU bound most of the time and so, GPU-Frametimes improved only negligible. But that depends strongly of your settings for post-processing, I assume.

Yeah, I have not a gaming capable monitor (I have a 27" that I use when I am sitting at the desk, but it is just a normal hdmi full-hd monitor)..So my use case is DCS-VR.

As you can see in my signature I have 5900x/6900xt/64gigs of ram and the Valve Index.

As I don't want to change mobo/ram for now (this year at least) the only possible upgrade is the 5800X3D, but I would do that only if it is an upgrade, and of course I will sell my 5900x in that case)

[some1]

All your typical background programs during gaming session are not enough to make even one modern CPU core sweat. 

In terms of games, 5800X3D very rarely lags behind faster clocked CPUs, and usually the larger cache is enough to stay on top, even in popular titles. With productivity tasks, it varies from program to program. Quite often in real life applications the difference is insignificant. For example going from 5900X to 5800X3D, compilation times in Visual Studio are slightly longer for me (10-20%), but that's something I can accept as I get better performance in simulators. 

 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2022 by some1

[Hiob]

5 minutes ago, VirusAM said:

Yeah, I have not a gaming capable monitor (I have a 27" that I use when I am sitting at the desk, but it is just a normal hdmi full-hd monitor)..So my use case is DCS-VR.

As you can see in my signature I have 5900x/6900xt/64gigs of ram and the Valve Index.

As I don't want to change mobo/ram for now (this year at least) the only possible upgrade is the 5800X3D, but I would do that only if it is an upgrade, and of course I will sell my 5900x in that case)

In this case, it comes down to the question if you feel that your CPU-frametimes are holding you back. If not - save your money for a future bigger upgrade. I only bought the 5800X3D, cause I had to build a new PC anyway and was able to choose which CPU I would run in my private rig. I chose to keep the 5900X in the end. But I'm not so much into VR!

Edited August 1, 2022 by Hiob

[some1]

BTW there are rumours of more X3D processors coming to AM4, and also AM5 is right around the corner. At this time of year, it's best just to sit and wait for Intel and AMD to show their new product lineups. 

[VirusAM]

2 hours ago, some1 said:

BTW there are rumours of more X3D processors coming to AM4, and also AM5 is right around the corner. At this time of year, it's best just to sit and wait for Intel and AMD to show their new product lineups. 

My feeling was that the 5800X3D would have been just a demonstrator for future technologies and that would have been the final AM4 CPU.

If that is wrong I will then wait to see if a 5900X3D or 5950X3D with higher clocks and the same 3d cache benefit will be released. AM5 CPU or Intel CPU is a no-go for now because I don't want to change all the platform, and an X3D CPU can be a good upgrade path for AM4 users

[Hiob]

15 minutes ago, VirusAM said:

My feeling was that the 5800X3D would have been just a demonstrator for future technologies and that would have been the final AM4 CPU.

If that is wrong I will then wait to see if a 5900X3D or 5950X3D with higher clocks and the same 3d cache benefit will be released. AM5 CPU or Intel CPU is a no-go for now because I don't want to change all the platform, and an X3D CPU can be a good upgrade path for AM4 users

The lower clock is a necessity with the stacked cache. See, the higher amount of cache is nice, but the way they implemented it (stacked it on top of the existing silicone, hence the term 3D) is a nightmare from a heat dispersion perspective. Not to mention the interface between the layers.

The X3D is cutting edge technology. But cutting edges could very well mean cutting corners as well. We will see how the 3D will be seen in retrospective. For now, I would only choose it, if I had a very distinct advantage in mind, that is more than marketing and theoretical. 

Don’t forget, that I see it from a non-VR, but 4K point of view. In 4K the theoretical advantage in games vanishes completely, and the additional money would be better spent in the next tier GPU. (or a RAM-upgrade).

 

Edit : Some people seem to think, that I'm advocating againdt the 5800X3D. But that is not true. I'm just advocating against the Hype-Train and for a reasonable due diligence in the decision making process. The reason is, that this case is not as straight forward, as e.g. the decision between a 5600X and 5800X or a 12700K and 12900K. This equation has more variables than simply "more money = more power".

 

Edited August 1, 2022 by Hiob

[nikoel]

14 hours ago, VirusAM said:

My feeling was that the 5800X3D would have been just a demonstrator for future technologies and that would have been the final AM4 CPU.

If that is wrong I will then wait to see if a 5900X3D or 5950X3D with higher clocks and the same 3d cache benefit will be released. AM5 CPU or Intel CPU is a no-go for now because I don't want to change all the platform, and an X3D CPU can be a good upgrade path for AM4 users

Virus, if you have ended up with a 'DCS PC' then 5800X3D will be an upgrade under ~$100.00USD for you once you sell your 5900X on the secondary market. This makes it a no-brainer

I don't know about you, but I've spent more on dinner last night, and additionally looking at the specs of the computer that you can afford - I am going to go out on a limb and say that you have spent more than that with 'your time' debating this side-grade than what this would have cost with real world money 

The 5800X3D is a failed/cut down/binned (whatever you want to call it) AMD EPYC 7003X Milan-X Data Centre CPU

It's not an "experiment" as AMD would not be guinea pig testing on their most valuable datacenter customers who fork out of the nose for those processors

The CPU is [somewhat] locked - and for those who managed to overclock the bastard ended up with measly FPS increases that in the overall grand scheme did not matter. The bottleneck in Sim types games are the draw calls which cache is able to mitigate by providing a consistent flow to the processor. This is why the processor is so much better than competition in say FS2020/Corsa - multicore/vulcan are not going to change this

Edited August 2, 2022 by nikoel

[VirusAM]

7 hours ago, nikoel said:

Virus, if you have ended up with a 'DCS PC' then 5800X3D will be an upgrade under ~$100.00USD for you once you sell your 5900X on the secondary market. This makes it a no-brainer

I don't know about you, but I've spent more on dinner last night, and additionally looking at the specs of the computer that you can afford - I am going to go out on a limb and say that you have spent more than that with 'your time' debating this side-grade than what this would have cost with real world money 

The 5800X3D is a failed/cut down/binned (whatever you want to call it) AMD EPYC 7003X Milan-X Data Centre CPU

It's not an "experiment" as AMD would not be guinea pig testing on their most valuable datacenter customers who fork out of the nose for those processors

The CPU is [somewhat] locked - and for those who managed to overclock the bastard ended up with measly FPS increases that in the overall grand scheme did not matter. The bottleneck in Sim types games are the draw calls which cache is able to mitigate by providing a consistent flow to the processor. This is why the processor is so much better than competition in say FS2020/Corsa - multicore/vulcan are not going to change this

 

Thanks, I will really consider this, as the CPU will show-up on local amazon store.

I think I can re-sell the 5900x at a fair price.

[Digitalvole]

On 8/1/2022 at 12:08 PM, some1 said:

BTW there are rumours of more X3D processors coming to AM4, and also AM5 is right around the corner. At this time of year, it's best just to sit and wait for Intel and AMD to show their new product lineups. 

If I was to ask you about this, as I’m about to build a new PC but I already have a cpu & gpu, would that be considered hijacking the thread?

[some1]

AM5 is rumoured to debut Sept. 15th https://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Zen-4-Ryzen-7000-to-launch-on-September-15-at-US-799-for-Ryzen-9-7950X-Ryzen-7-7800X3D-and-Ryzen-9-7950X3D-purported-3D-V-Cache-versions.637813.0.html

Also rumours about more AM4 x3d cpus https://www.techpowerup.com/296392/amd-readies-more-ryzen-5000x3d-processors?cp=5#comments

Intel also has new cpus coming this fall. So if you aim for high end machine and can postpone a month or two, its better to wait. If you need something now or don't want to spend much, the current cpus are not a bad choice.

Edited August 2, 2022 by some1

[Dentedend10]

So I did the jump from 5800x to the x3d. Unfortunately I can’t say there is a noticeable difference. Flying over the carrier in the F14 in the Caucasus, I still get stuttering. CPU frametimes seem a little better, and I seem to get a bit more stable FPS, but visually not much of a difference. The stuttering still breaks immersion  (this is without OpenXR and I explained in another post why OpenXR is not an option for my setup)

I have yet to test MSFS20, however that sim was smoother to begin with. 

[M1Combat]

The carrier is quite heavy.  I'm sure you're getting a reasonable improvement pretty well everywhere else.

[Dentedend10]

Just did the dogfight instant action in the F14 against Su27. It was a bit smoother experience and seemed like it kept it at around 45 FPS. I guess I have to set my expectations lower for those case I recoveries