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Make all skins available and not tied to a faction/country


ustio

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1 hour ago, ustio said:

I know there is a workaround for this but i rather have everything default and make all skins available regardless of the country.

 

Like Mig-21 from M3

 

Seems you have never edited a mission, it is a pain to wade through super long skin lists ... having only the skins that belong to the unit country is so much easier.


Edited by Rudel_chw
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yeah I don't know if I would call it a workaround. Its more of a very clever way to give users more control over the factions and their equipment. You can't really ask for something you already have.

But what we could use is more skins that would better represent captured equipment, or deception missions.

It would be nice if when you select combined joint task force, it would come with additional skins to make it look more like a captured vehicle. Like American markings on a Panther tank for example, or the British troops manning the Bofors would be switch out for German troops when assigned to TR, or a skin that would make the Panther look like an M10.  

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1 hour ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

Seems you have never edited a mission, it is a pain to wade through super long skin lists ... having only the skins that belong to the unit country is so much easier.

 

...and that isn't even taking into account how, especially on the older modules, a lot of the skins for various countries are actually called the same, so you'd have to go through the list one by one as well.

As a quick example, the Su-25T has quite a few skins that are all called 'af standard'.

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2 hours ago, Mike_Romeo said:


Set country to combined joint taskforce red/blue. This will unlock all skins as well

That doesn't work when playing multiplayer on a server. Most server does not use that faction

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2 hours ago, ustio said:

That doesn't work when playing multiplayer on a server. Most server does not use that faction

But there's nothing stopping server owners from using it.

Personally, I'm with Rudel on this one, it just clutters up the list, especially in the case of the MiG-21bis.

And personally, what's the point of even having countries in the first place if they don't show stuff specific to said country?

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I mentioned this in another thread, I think the solution to liveries is a livery manager. Right now ED can't give us too many because that increases DCS install size massively. However they can't give us too little because then we don't have variety and we also lose realism (ie if we had one skin for a plane in service with multiple nations, that obviously leads to problem, especially if these nations happen to be fighting each other).

We should be able to choose what skins are downloaded and where they are available. If someone needs to save space and deletes most skins then they'll just see the default skin replace whatever they removed. On the other hand someone will lots of space and a desire for many liveries could download as many as ED want to make available.

 

6 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

And personally, what's the point of even having countries in the first place if they don't show stuff specific to said country?

For the most part, sure, but there are always edge cases. What if your mission features a defection/capture? Ideally you would want the defecting or captured plane to be on the friendly coalition side, but have enemy markings, etc. And correct me if I'm wrong but didn't some Russian MiG-15's fly with Korean markings in the Korean War, or did they just provide pilots? Unlocking liveries for countries also won't remove things like country specific triggers.

In general I think hard coded restrictions are actually bad for the sim. Instead, I feel like we should be provided information and/or tools that help us replicate reality (ie check box for "show only liveries for this country") instead of being completely prevented from using any combination we want. Fictional scenarios are as appropriate in DCS as historical cases are.

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On 4/16/2022 at 9:52 PM, Exorcet said:

For the most part, sure, but there are always edge cases. What if your mission features a defection/capture?

Hadn't really considered that.

Though the solution to that is to rethink how coalitions are handled.

As far as this is concerned, I wish countries were just used as an optional filter for units, instead of being assigned to one side only. There should also be an option to select no country, in which case everything is listed with every livery listed.

This way every single unit from whatever country would be available to every side (with the only optional restriction being historical mode controlling which countries are present in the list - such as the USSR and its successor states).

All there would need to be as far as unit selection goes is something like a drop down menu to control which side the unit belongs to. It would also be beneficial to have side assignments be controllable via triggers - allowing you to faciliate units defecting and being captured.

This would however make some countries redundant; namely the United Nations (which should really be its own independent side) and the Combined Joint Forces (which are served by not having a country/selecting a 'None' country which lists everything).

 

As for Soviet pilots flying in North Korean marked MiGs, again, an improved coalition system could handle that.

Instead of our current system, where we're limited to just 2 combative coalitions and 1 non-combative neutral, allow mission editors to add/edit/rename/remove sides at will, and allow them to set their posture with respect to other sides. That way I could define a side, call it "USSR' and add whatever I wanted to it.

If I wanted to add a Soviet aircraft with a fictional/non-USSR livery, I would simply select the aircraft from the 'none' country which lists everything, or a country that operates the same aircraft with my desired livery.

It's perhaps a teeny bit more long-winded, but this way offers maximum flexibility and caters for both sides of the aisle without compromising on anything.

 

Of course, we'd probably need to update how the icons work to be more realistic; at least as far as NATO symbology goes - right now icon colour is side specific but how it should work is that blue icons should denote friendly units and red icons should denote hostile units (with yellow being unknown and green being neutral), the icons should also be shaped differently depending on affilation (see this).

 

See this.

 

But personally, countries should only contain units which they either use or have a livery for, and the liveries themselves should be apprpriate to said country. If I'm selecting a Russian Su-24M, the default livery selected shouldn't be Iranian, like it is currently.


Edited by Northstar98
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7 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Hadn't really considered that.

Though what I will say is that I wish we had a rethink to how coalitions are handled. As far as this is concerned, I wish countries weren't assigned to a particular coalition and were only used as an optional filter for units.

 

Yeah I remember your proposals for revamped coalitions. That's certainly another option and your ideas are well thought out, though in general I still want to be careful with hard limits built into the sim. Even if they're useful or preferred 95% of the time, they can cause unforeseen problems in niche cases.

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As a non-default unlock option — i.e. everything works as normal unless you check an unlock box in a group's unit setup tab — I could see the use where you want to split similar-looking planes across three coalitions and thus three countries. You can sort of do it already between the CJTF Blue / Red, UN, and USAF Aggressors but you get into some oddities related to how countries work that way since there are a few details such as ATC language and what counts as “native” instrument units that are tied to the exact country fielding the unit. All four of those go for English / Imperial, and if you want some other mix, you'd be restricted as well.

So yeah, as an optional override, there are a few edge cases where it would be handy. For just generic MP where countries don't actually matter, it can be dealt with well enough with the four all-unit “countries” already. Of course, there, as always, the trick is to have a conversation with the mission maker what you want out of the whole thing and in particular, what you want to be able to offer to the clients. This would hold true with the all-unit countries just as well as it would with a skin override toggle.


Edited by Tippis
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57 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

For the most part, sure, but there are always edge cases. What if your mission features a defection/capture? Ideally you would want the defecting or captured plane to be on the friendly coalition side, but have enemy markings, etc. And correct me if I'm wrong but didn't some Russian MiG-15's fly with Korean markings in the Korean War, or did they just provide pilots? Unlocking liveries for countries also won't remove things like country specific triggers.

In general I think hard coded restrictions are actually bad for the sim. Instead, I feel like we should be provided information and/or tools that help us replicate reality (ie check box for "show only liveries for this country") instead of being completely prevented from using any combination we want. Fictional scenarios are as appropriate in DCS as historical cases are.

I think that's slightly beside the point. If you are making your own missions with scenarios like that in mind, using something like a 'joint coalition' country within the faction is a perfectly walkable way, I'd say. After all, flying the mission you don't see what 'the official country' in DCS really is.

The 'Korean' MiG-15s being flown by Russians is true, though, but again, seen from the outside they were pretty much North Korean; at least that's what they were supposed to be. The pilots, if I remember correctly, were actually under strict orders not to speak too much as they knew the Americans could eavesdrop on the radios - orders that were quickly void when in combat.

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24 minutes ago, Tippis said:

but you get into some oddities related to how countries work that way since there are a few details such as ATC language and what counts as “native” instrument units that are tied to the exact country fielding the unit. All four of those go for English / Imperial, and if you want some other mix, you'd be restricted as well.

Hmm, in that case, using the system proposed above, I think it would be better for the ATC language to be tied to specific airbases, depending on what side the airbase belongs to, and just have the mission editor select a language for each side.

As for units and even perhaps cockpit languages, it should default to whatever is appropriate for whatever country, with the option to override it.

16 minutes ago, Kang said:

I think that's slightly beside the point. If you are making your own missions with scenarios like that in mind, using something like a 'joint coalition' country within the faction is a perfectly walkable way, I'd say. After all, flying the mission you don't see what 'the official country' in DCS really is.

Exactly, without the infobar showing you the flag of the country the unit belongs to, you wouldn't be able to tell - aside from maybe whatever the native units of measurement are and the ATC language.

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5 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

But there's nothing stopping server owners from using it.

Personally, I'm with Rudel on this one, it just clutters up the list, especially in the case of the MiG-21bis.

And personally, what's the point of even having countries in the first place if they don't show stuff specific to said country?

Curious, which aircraft gives you trouble sorting out skin because there are to many?

 

Also combined force doesnt work when the same aircraft are on the opposing faction. So you cant use the skin from the opposing side.

 

I think the point is, if i buy a 70 dollar module, I shouldn't be limited on what skin I can use regardless in MP or SP

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There’s a simple text field in the skin’s lua you can change that will allow you to use the skin for any nationality you like. Not a big deal. 

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5 hours ago, ustio said:

I think the point is, if i buy a 70 dollar module, I shouldn't be limited on what skin I can use regardless in MP or SP

But you surely can in all of your own missions. If the skin you want is used on the other side, here's a hot take: instead of Blue Joint Force just use Red Joint Force. The fact that the mission designer doesn't let you use whatever skin you want in a MP mission is actually preferable, as country markings and roundels are actually a thing then.

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20 minutes ago, Kang said:

 The fact that the mission designer doesn't let you use whatever skin you want in a MP mission is actually preferable, as country markings and roundels are actually a thing then.

No. Idk if you ever play MP, most modern server does not rely on skin to IFF since they can intterogate with their IFF. if this is the case, then they should just outright banned and put the work around method on the inteegritty check.

 

And on cold war and ww2 server, both faction use different plane anyway so we never use skin to IFF

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

There’s a simple text field in the skin’s lua you can change that will allow you to use the skin for any nationality you like. Not a big deal. 

Here's the thing, if its not such a big deal then why not make it official anyway. Seems that will most people happy


Edited by ustio
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11 hours ago, ustio said:

Curious, which aircraft gives you trouble sorting out skin because there are to many?

The biggest one is the MiG-21bis.

It's not that its difficult to find the one I want, it's just that it's far more cluttered than it needs to be.

But in the case of aircraft which have the exact same name for multiple countries, it's a pain.

 

And having everything available for every country IMO pretty much defeats the point of even having said countries in the first place.

 

Again, I'd much rather use a system similar to C:MO:

Firstly, have sides be something that mission editors can add/rename and remove at will, as well as set their posture with respect to other sides. This would allow for much more flexibility in mission creation (and it's already damn near essential in conflicts such as Syria, where there's significantly more than 2 belligerents). If the mood took you, you could set up a side for each individual country, or each individual service branch.

Secondly, instead of having countries that get assigned exclusively to a particular side, have them just be a method of filtering units. So if a particular country is selected, only equipment and liveries said country actually operates is present.

If no country is selected, all units and liveries should be available, which would facilitate everything, including fictional liveries.

All we would need is a something like a drop down menu, allowing us to select which side the placed unit/group belongs to, completely decoupled from the country selection (as a bonus, this should be able to be set via a trigger e.g. 'set group/unit allegiance').

 

This way everybody is facilitated without any compromise. Those that wish to filter units and liveries by their respective countries can do so, and people who want to have everything available can also do so.

11 hours ago, ustio said:

Also combined force doesnt work when the same aircraft are on the opposing faction. So you cant use the skin from the opposing side.

You can use the same livery on 2 opposing sides.

Use CJTF blue for BLUFOR and CJTF red for REDFOR - all units and all liveries are available for both.

Or are you saying that if a livery is selected on one side, it shouldn't be visible for the other? Only that conflicts with your very next sentence, and kinda your OP.

11 hours ago, ustio said:

I think the point is, if i buy a 70 dollar module, I shouldn't be limited on what skin I can use regardless in MP or SP

You aren't, you already have a solution that doesn't involve editing .lua files, you just have to make sure you set the country appropriately.


Edited by Northstar98
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16 minutes ago, ustio said:

No. Idk if you ever play MP, most modern server does not rely on skin to IFF since they can intterogate with their IFF.

Well, this is doctrine dependent.

If IFF was actually simulated properly, and if we had civilians or multiple sides, you may have to rely on VID more often to avoid friendly fire.

16 minutes ago, ustio said:

And on cold war and ww2 server, both faction use different plane anyway so we never use skin to IFF

But in the case of captured aircraft, it isn't that simple - and in such a case you're better off VIDing your target.

Fortunately, WWII engagement ranges makes that pretty easy.

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1 hour ago, Northstar98 said:

The biggest one is the MiG-21bis.

It's not that its difficult to find the one I want, it's just that it's far more cluttered than it needs to be.

But in the case of aircraft which have the exact same name for multiple countries, it's a pain.

 

And having everything available for every country IMO pretty much defeats the point of even having said countries in the first place.

 

Again, I'd much rather use a system similar to C:MO:

Firstly, have sides be something that mission editors can add/rename and remove at will, as well as set their posture with respect to other sides. This would allow for much more flexibility in mission creation (and it's already damn near essential in conflicts such as Syria, where there's significantly more than 2 belligerents). If the mood took you, could set up a side for each individual country, or each individual service branch.

Secondly, instead of having countries that get assigned exclusively to a particular side, have them just be a method of filtering units. So if a particular country is selected, only equipment and liveries said country actually operates is present.

If no country is selected, all units and liveries should be available, which would facilitate everything, including fictional liveries.

All we would need is a something like a drop down menu, allowing us to select which side the placed unit/group belongs to, completely decoupled from the country selection (as a bonus, this should be able to be set via a trigger e.g. 'set group/unit allegiance').

This way everybody is facilitated without any compromise. Those that wish to filter units and liveries by their respective countries can do so, and people who want to have everything available can also do so.

You can use the same livery on 2 opposing sides.

Use CJTF blue for BLUFOR and CJTF red for REDFOR - all units and all liveries are available for both.

Or are you saying that if a livery is selected on one side, it shouldn't be visible for the other? Only that conflicts with your very next sentence, and kinda your OP.

You aren't, you already have a solution that doesn't involve editing .lua files, you just have to make sure you set the country appropriately.

 

Seems like your problem with the mission editor for crearting a mission. While im down for a filter system that filter skins to a specific faction to make skin selection less clutered. But thats not what this thread about

 

What I'm trying to say is when you join a MP server and spawn on the ramp and open the rearmament menu, you should be able to choose all the skins that are available regardles what faction. Most people rarelly roleplays and follow the mission scenario anyway in terms of skin on MP server and just choose the skins that they want to fly. And its not like I can just ask the public server owner to open the MIZ file and ask them to change every single aircraft client slot to change it to jtf.

 

1 hour ago, Northstar98 said:

Well, this is doctrine dependent.

If IFF was actually simulated properly, and if we had civilians or multiple sides, you may have to rely on VID more often to avoid friendly fire.

.

Well this is DCS MP, IDK if you play MP but WVR engagement rarelly happen in the most popullar modern server. Even if it does happen IFFing from a skin is not the primary way to IFF in MP.

 

1 hour ago, Northstar98 said:

 

But in the case of captured aircraft, it isn't that simple - and in such a case you're better off VIDing your target.

Fortunately, WWII engagement ranges makes that pretty easy.

I've never encountered this scenario in any MP public CW server. And by the looks of it, this scenario would be unpopullar. So i dont think this will be a problem.

 

And the fact is there are 5000 users that download the mod to unlock all the skins this doesn't include the one that manually edit the .lua. so again a lot of people would be happy if this is a thing.

 

 

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On 4/17/2022 at 11:14 AM, ustio said:

Seems like your problem with the mission editor for crearting a mission.

It applies to both. The list is just as cluttered in the rearming and refuelling menu, while being inaccurate, as it is in the mission editor.

And again, what's the point of even selecting a country in the first place, if the only bearing it's going to have is a flag in the infobar?

On 4/17/2022 at 11:14 AM, ustio said:

While im down for a filter system that filter skins to a specific faction to make skin selection less clutered. But thats not what this thread about

I brought it up because I would only be in favour of the request, if there was a filter and if that filter was enforceable.

The livery selection is just as cluttered on the rearming menu, and while you're already facilitated with the CJTF "countries", I on the other hand am not when it comes to aircraft where the liveries are available to everything, making selecting that country in the first place pretty pointless.

On 4/17/2022 at 11:14 AM, ustio said:

What I'm trying to say is when you join a MP server and spawn on the ramp and open the rearmament menu, you should be able to choose all the skins that are available regardles what faction.

It applies to both equally.

Again, what's the point of selecting a country in the first place if it doesn't change anything?

And again, you're already catered for - as far as the current system goes, this is a mission editing problem.

On 4/17/2022 at 11:14 AM, ustio said:

Most people rarelly roleplays and follow the mission scenario anyway in terms of skin on MP server and just choose the skins that they want to fly.

Then mission editors should make sure they select the appropriate country for their clients.

Just like they should make sure they select appropriate aircraft for their clients.

Again, you're already catered for.

On 4/17/2022 at 11:14 AM, ustio said:

And its not like I can just ask the public server owner to open the MIZ file and ask them to change every single aircraft client slot to change it to jtf.

Why not?

On 4/17/2022 at 11:14 AM, ustio said:

Well this is DCS MP, IDK if you play MP but WVR engagement rarelly happen in the most popullar modern server. Even if it does happen IFFing from a skin is not the primary way to IFF in MP.

As I said previously, a lot of that is due to how IFF is currently magic, and there's only 2 combative sides, meaning doctrine and ROE are essentially moot concepts.

And VIDing an aircraft doesn't have to be the primary way, so long as it is a valid way of doing it (which it clearly is).

If it wasn't so simple, then VID may become more important with ambiguous targets.

On 4/17/2022 at 11:14 AM, ustio said:

I've never encountered this scenario in any MP public CW server.

And?

That doesn't mean that it's invalid as a concept, it is an edge case but it's a perfectly valid one.

And the exact same thing applies for scenarios which may be more likely:

Let's say you've set up a US vs Iran mission and you get into a furball with several US and Iranian F-5Es.

How do you tell which is which?

To GCI and AEW&C aircraft, you'll appear as merged, so they probably won't be much help (even if they can magically identify who is who, owing to magic IFF implementation); neither sides' F-5Es have IFF interrogators, so that's out of the question too.

My only option is to VID my targets before commiting to an engagement.

If I want to mitigate the possibility of friendly fire, it would be better for the liveries to be restricted to only be those appropriate for whichever side. If they're completely wide open it would be possible for players to pick liveries that are more ambiguous, or even those from the opposing side - which invites more chance for friendly fire which is undesireable. I'm okay with them changing liveries or even using custom liveries - so I don't necessarily want to lock them out of changing them - just so long as the livery has whatever country's markings.

Of course if I don't care about this (and there are situations where I don't), I could just set BLUFOR to be CJTF blue and REDFOR to be CJTF red, and not worry about the liveries, leaving them completely open. In the above system I suggested, I would select the unit without filtering for country, which should have everything available, I could then reserve the country for naming of the side.

 

With the current system whereby liveries are restricted to appropriate countries (or at least should be), both possibilities are catered for: if I want liveries to be restricted to mitigate friendly fire (or even just for the sake of accuracy in this regard) I can do so (usually). If I want liveries to be completely open, I can do so - both are facilitated and so both sides of the aisle are happy basically without compromise.

With your system, I lose that ability, I would have to lock people out of changing their liveries outright, which while desireable in maybe strictly historical missions, wouldn't be completely necessary in others.

If people however want to mod their installs to have custom liveries, I'm in favour of it - but if a client doesn't have said livery, it should appear as the default for the country selected.

On 4/17/2022 at 11:14 AM, ustio said:

And by the looks of it, this scenario would be unpopullar. So i dont think this will be a problem.

Based on?

On 4/17/2022 at 11:14 AM, ustio said:

And the fact is there are 5000 users that download the mod to unlock all the skins this doesn't include the one that manually edit the .lua. so again a lot of people would be happy if this is a thing.

So not only can you already do this using stuff already available to without any mods, there's also a mod that does it too. So long as said mod doesn't break the IC (which I don't think it should as I think liveries are off limits), what's the issue?


Edited by Northstar98

Modules I own: F-14A/B, Mi-24P, AV-8B N/A, AJS 37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk.

Terrains I own: South Atlantic, Syria, The Channel, SoH/PG, Marianas.

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Peripherals: VKB Gunfighter Mk.II w. MCG Pro, MFG Crosswind V3 Graphite, Logitech Extreme 3D Pro.

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9 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Again, what's the point of selecting a country in the first place if it doesn't change anything?

While the general sentiment is fine, I just want to reiterate a crucial point here: it does change things.

❧ ❧ Inside you are two wolves. One cannot land; the other shoots friendlies. You are a Goon. ❧ ❧

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4 minutes ago, Tippis said:

While the general sentiment is fine, I just want to reiterate a crucial point here: it does change things.

I meant more with regard to liveries themselves.

Other than, is it not just units of measurement and default ATC languages, and of course the flag that appears on the infobar?

If so, then like I said, these settings should probably be something mission editors can override if desired (and for units it of course depends on what the users own settings are set to).


Edited by Northstar98

Modules I own: F-14A/B, Mi-24P, AV-8B N/A, AJS 37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk.

Terrains I own: South Atlantic, Syria, The Channel, SoH/PG, Marianas.

System:

GIGABYTE B650 AORUS ELITE AX, AMD Ryzen 5 7600, Corsair Vengeance DDR5-5200 32 GB, Western Digital Black SN850X 1 TB (DCS dedicated) & 2 TB NVMe SSDs, Corsair RM850X 850 W, NZXT H7 Flow, MSI G274CV.

Peripherals: VKB Gunfighter Mk.II w. MCG Pro, MFG Crosswind V3 Graphite, Logitech Extreme 3D Pro.

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