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Setting an SPI


EricJ
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I'm a bit confused on how to set an SPI. What HOTAS command do you use to get the Maverick to automagically move to it as I'm trying to improve my use of the TGP/Maverick combo.

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On 4/16/2022 at 5:40 PM, EricJ said:

I'm a bit confused on how to set an SPI. What HOTAS command do you use to get the Maverick to automagically move to it as I'm trying to improve my use of the TGP/Maverick combo.

First of all, the "Make SPI" HOTAS command actually designates a sensor to generate the SPI. Check the lower left corner of the HUD; it'll tell you what the SPI or SPI Generator currently is. It defaults to "STPT" aka "steerpoint".

With the TGP as Sensor of Interest, use the "Make SPI" HOTAS command (TMS Forward Long) and double check that the HUD now reads "TGP" instead of "STPT".

From this point onward, where ever you slew the TGP is going to be your SPI. Note that the SPI will automatically revert to "STPT" when the TGP looks above the horizon or is no longer able to generate a valid SPI for any reason.

Next, make sure that a Maverick is selected as the active weapon profile and that it's up on one of the MFCDs and of course confirm that its EO timer has gone through the 3-minute startup period. Now, "Slave all to SPI" (China Hat Forward Long) and observe that the Mav seeker is now looking at the same spot that your TGP is looking at.

Make the Mav SOI. Next, get the Maverick to track the object in the middle of the crosshair. You can either slew the Mav around until it tracks, but that's a bit finicky and it tends to lock other objects in the vicinity (yes I'm looking at you, damn lamp poles 🤣), or hit TMS Forward Short as often as it takes for the Mav to track. Once it does, Rifle. 👍

Does that help? If you're struggling, a track or a video might help us to point you more precisely in the right direction.


Edited by Yurgon
Updated "where ever the TGP looks" to "where ever you slew the TGP"
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No both of you answered the question to my satisfaction, I appreciate it.

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1 hour ago, EricJ said:

No both of you answered the question to my satisfaction, I appreciate it.

Awesome! 🙂

For the fun of it, you could also do the same procedure the other way around: Make Mav SOI, set it as SPI, set up TGP on the other screen, slave all to SPI, and then slew the Mav around. This time the TGP should follow the Mav. Granted, there's not much practical use for this particular scenario, but it shows how the Mav can be used as a poor man's TGP, and more importantly it shows that the system is fairly universal and not just tied to the TGP alone. 😉

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12 minutes ago, Yurgon said:

Awesome! 🙂

For the fun of it, you could also do the same procedure the other way around: Make Mav SOI, set it as SPI, set up TGP on the other screen, slave all to SPI, and then slew the Mav around. This time the TGP should follow the Mav. Granted, there's not much practical use for this particular scenario, but it shows how the Mav can be used as a poor man's TGP, and more importantly it shows that the system is fairly universal and not just tied to the TGP alone. 😉

Nah I'd rather use the TGP first as the small window I have with the Mav itself doesn't really help much, unless I use it with the TGP. I need to make good shots at long range so I'll lead with the TGP though...

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14 hours ago, EricJ said:

Nah I'd rather use the TGP first as the small window I have with the Mav itself doesn't really help much, unless I use it with the TGP. I need to make good shots at long range so I'll lead with the TGP though...

Yeah of course, that's the practical approach and it makes all the sense in the world.

Slaving the TGP to Mav is kind of an esoteric example. It's possible, but it doesn't make much sense outside of an academic context. Still, I'd recommend doing it during a boring route leg just to get the flow going and gain a deeper understanding of the switchology, and experience first hand how the SOI and slaving-concepts are not tied to just one sensor/combo.


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18 minutes ago, Yurgon said:

Yeah of course, that's the practical approach and it makes all the sense in the world.

Slaving the TGP to Mav is kind of an esoteric example. It's possible, but it doesn't make much sense outside of an academic context. Still, I'd recommend doing it during a boring route leg just to get the flow going and gain a deeper understanding of the switchology, and experience first hand how the SOI and slaving-concepts are not tied to just one sensor/combo.

 

Okay I'll see what I can do though. It's been awhile so it'll take some time getting a handle on all of this.

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On 4/16/2022 at 3:13 PM, Yurgon said:

First of all, the "Make SPI" HOTAS command actually designates a sensor to generate the SPI.

 


Not quite.  
It's actually an entry that defines a point in space. When SPI is being created by say the TGP or Maverick, the entry will be continuously updated when slewing the sensor.

As per USAF:
"The SPI is defined as the point in three-dimensional space that the system uses as a unique reference for other functions, such as weapons delivery, off-board transmission, and sensor slaving."

This entry is stored in Aircraft Position and Target Designation (APTD)

The SPI entry contains:
SPI Entity ID Serial Number (EISN) and Originator URN/Call Sign
SPI Coordinates (Lat/Long or MGRS)
SPI elevation (MSL/HAE)

 

So what "Make SPI" actually does, when say TGP is SOI, is  sends the command to store the point in the center of the TGP as the SPI entry.The fact that the TGP can be slewed is irrelevant, as the SOI information is not stored, but slewing the TGP will update the SPI position, until a new sensor creates a new  SPI,  or you hook a different   SPI, or even make a Mark point SPI! 

 

This becomes  more important when Flight Member SPI, and  Donor (non flight member)   SPI's are broadcast.  The SOI used to create the SPI is ignored and only the SPI entry itself is copied over.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Dagger71 said:

Not quite. [...]

If you manage to find a more convoluted description than this recent one, be sure to let us know.

Until then, for all intents and purposes, "Make SPI" assigns a sensor to generate the SPI.

For anyone who likes to likes to read 150 million times that the SPI is a point in 3D space, go right ahead. You have been warned. No need to add another 150 million mentions now.

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13 minutes ago, Yurgon said:

If you manage to find a more convoluted description than this recent one, be sure to let us know.

Until then, for all intents and purposes, "Make SPI" assigns a sensor to generate the SPI.

For anyone who likes to likes to read 150 million times that the SPI is a point in 3D space, go right ahead. You have been warned. No need to add another 150 million mentions now.

Sorry not following you, not sure what convoluted by my statement.     But it does not work as you say.  

 

"Make SPI"   actually   does not interact with the sensor or give it any commands. It  simply  copies the value in the SPI entry to be used in the future until it is overwritten.

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vor 8 Stunden schrieb Dagger71:

"Make SPI"   actually   does not interact with the sensor or give it any commands. It  simply  copies the value in the SPI entry to be used in the future until it is overwritten.

... which it is constantly, as you just made a sensor the SPI-generator and it now updates the "point in the database" everytime it's slewed, either manually (thumbstick, or per "all to steerpoint" HOTAS command).

Ever wondered, why you can watch the SPI following the TGP around or going back to the steerpoint, without you having to "Make SPI"? As it still, years later, doesn't "make A SPI", but "makes the SOI the SPI-generator". Why is that little difference important? Because the weapons are mostly dropped onto the SPI and if you make the TGP the SPI-generator and move it away, from the intended target, even without another press of the TMS to "make SPI" it will drop where the TGP looks and NOT on the supposed "point" where you "made SPI last"! Especially for people coming from the Hornet, this is problematic, as in the Targeting Pod Implementation of the F/A-18C you can designate a target point, then slew the TPOD elsewhere and the JDAM still goes for the target point.

In the A-10C the JDAM goes where the SPI is looking!

Edit: even if you never touch the TMS there is a SPI, it's on the current SteerPoint, by default and if you select a different SteerPoint you notice the SPI moving to the selected SteerPoint.

"Make SPI" does not "make a point entry", it "makes" the current SOI the source of the SPI and that SPI is constantly updating the point in 3D-space whenever the sensor moves or another Sensor is made SPI.


Edited by shagrat
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Shagrat

 

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vor 12 Stunden schrieb Dagger71:

As per USAF:
"The SPI is defined as the point in three-dimensional space that the system uses as a unique reference for other functions, such as weapons delivery, off-board transmission, and sensor slaving."

That is correct, but does only describe what the SPI is, not what the "Make SPI" command does.

vor 12 Stunden schrieb Dagger71:

or you hook a different   SPI

Just think about what you said there... "Hook a different Sensor Point of Interest". Which one would that be?

The one stored in the APTD, or the one stored in the APTD?

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Shagrat

 

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It probably comes down to symantics, but the point I was trying to make is when you make the TGP point SPI, there will be a SPI  entry for that middle point,  if you move it, it will change,  that I agree with .   Same with Steerpoint SPI.  BUT it's two completely different entries, one is the steerpoint and the other is the SPI.   Same with markpoints, you can make the markpoint SPI, change the markpoint and two entries will change, the markpoint and the new SPI location.

You can call it a SPI generator, but it's not referred to that by the AF, because they are two different entries, even though they will  have the same info (coordinates, and alt). But only the SPI entry can  get passed through to other units, whether in your flight or not.

Hooking a new SPI is just that. Hooking a SPI from a different source, regardless of what sensor they used to  create the SPI.    

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...but there can be only a single SPI at a time. And that one SPI moves with the sensor "made SPI-generator".

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb Dagger71:

It probably comes down to symantics, but the point I was trying to make is when you make the TGP point SPI, there will be a SPI  entry for that middle point,  if you move it, it will change,  that I agree with .   Same with Steerpoint SPI.  BUT it's two completely different entries, one is the steerpoint and the other is the SPI.   Same with markpoints, you can make the markpoint SPI, change the markpoint and two entries will change, the markpoint and the new SPI location.

You can call it a SPI generator, but it's not referred to that by the AF, because they are two different entries, even though they will  have the same info (coordinates, and alt). But only the SPI entry can  get passed through to other units, whether in your flight or not.

Hooking a new SPI is just that. Hooking a SPI from a different source, regardless of what sensor they used to  create the SPI.    

The point is: the "Make SPI“ action, does not "make a point" it selects a sensor to be the source for constantly(!) updating the SPI. You do not need to "create/store a point" because it is always there. By default the APTP info contains the steerpoint as SPI. When you do the "Make SPI" HOTAS action it will update(!) that information constantly, with the point from that sensor, whichever was SOI at that moment. 

I elaborated why this "semantics" is an important difference as other aircraft do not(!) update the designation, unless the pilot actively does so.

Shagrat

 

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vor 15 Stunden schrieb Dagger71:

This becomes  more important when Flight Member SPI, and  Donor (non flight member)   SPI's are broadcast.  The SOI used to create the SPI is ignored and only the SPI entry itself is copied over.

That's not what's happening. Your(!) TAD is the current SOI, you hook the buddy SPI symbol (donor SPI) on your(!) TAD, "make that SPI" and the coordinates from your TAD/MC is used to update the APTD database entry now.

The buddy can actually slew his SPI around and your SPI and sensors (if commanded "All to SPI" China hat fwd long) will even follow it in realtime.

Which also implies if you drop a JDAM and he moved his sensor to the friendly Humvee, your JDAM will now hit the friendly... 

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SPI is like a parking spot. The pilot doesn't make the spot, he chooses which car gets to park there. SPI is like a hand puppet. The pilot doesn't move the puppet, he chooses which hand goes in. SPI is like an elected representative. The pilot doesn't control anything except he chooses the representative.

A large quantity of people have been known to have a  poor understanding of SPI conceptually. "Make a SPI" is a wrong notion in itself, there's never a SPI, only the SPI. With rare exception there is always one SPI, neither created nor destroyed, like a king of a kingdom. It's a privileged position. Also the sensor has 100% control over the location of SPI. The next second the sensor could decided SPI is on the Moon or in the lands of Mordor. The pilot must have trust and understanding that his only power is choosing the sensor and that the sensor, often continuously, changes the location of SPI according to its whims. Creating a SPI as a concept sounds a lot like creating a bookmark in space which is both wrong and a common misconception.

Any phase like "make a SPI with" is, deliberately or not, contributing to the misinformation of others and disrupting their understanding of the concept. A positive information statement like "make TGP the SPI generator" is good. A neutral information statement like "make TGP SPI" neither helps nor hampers understanding. "Make a SPI with TGP" is bad.

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On 4/16/2022 at 12:22 PM, DN308 said:

First TMS UP LONG

Then Chian Hat Fwd long

Then MAV SOI

TMS up short

Shoot

Okay I've been looking at the bindings and I don't see a TMS up short or long. Which key bindings are they for TMS UP?

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I know that part, I mean which keybind is TMS UP

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28 minutes ago, EricJ said:

I know that part, I mean which keybind is TMS UP

You'll find it in Controls -> A-10C II Sim -> HOTAS -> TMS Forward

I don't know which key it's bound to by default and I'm not at my gaming PC, so can't look it up for you, but you should be able to find it quickly. 😉

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1 minute ago, Yurgon said:

You'll find it in Controls -> A-10C II Sim -> HOTAS -> TMS Forward

I don't know which key it's bound to by default and I'm not at my gaming PC, so can't look it up for you, but you should be able to find it quickly. 😉

Thanks I'll mess with it and hopefully get things squared away. But this is for the original A-10C, not the A-10C II (I'm on the fence with that right now), but I'm assuming it doesn't make a difference as they're pretty much the same?


Edited by EricJ

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5 minutes ago, EricJ said:

But this is for the original A-10C, not the A-10C II (I'm on the fence with that right now), but I'm assuming it doesn't make a difference as they're pretty much the same?

Correct, at least in this regard. 🙂

You should definitely learn the tables for the Stick and Throttle HOTAS commands and commit them to memory, either from the manual or I guess Chuck's guide probably has them as well. 

There are a few differences between the A-10C and the A-10C II modules, but TMS Forward has the exact same function in both of them.

Edit: Just for clarification, the official terminology for the Target Management Switch is Forward, Right, Aft and Left, but players often refer to Forward as Up and Aft as Down because that's what it feels like on the Stick. In the official documentation you'll find the "correct" terms, and when you read "Up" or "Down" you'll have to translate it. 😉
(I'm sure I used the wrong terminology myself lots of times)


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58 minutes ago, Yurgon said:

Correct, at least in this regard. 🙂

You should definitely learn the tables for the Stick and Throttle HOTAS commands and commit them to memory, either from the manual or I guess Chuck's guide probably has them as well. 

There are a few differences between the A-10C and the A-10C II modules, but TMS Forward has the exact same function in both of them.

Edit: Just for clarification, the official terminology for the Target Management Switch is Forward, Right, Aft and Left, but players often refer to Forward as Up and Aft as Down because that's what it feels like on the Stick. In the official documentation you'll find the "correct" terms, and when you read "Up" or "Down" you'll have to translate it. 😉
(I'm sure I used the wrong terminology myself lots of times)

 

Gotcha, I'll keep that in mind but good news that it worked like a charm and it had issues locking on the target (I finally messed with it on my custom mission) with the seeker but regardless the sequence worked good.


Edited by EricJ
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