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Long range bombers and support


OldIronsides

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1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

The AC-130 could only be employed against an enemy without any air defenses. But a game against a defenseless enemy just isn’t very interesting. 

Tell that to the SEAD flight that made that operation possible.

Seriously, at that point, what's the difference between a BUFF being the strike package, and a pair of Hogs? The Escorts, and the SEAD guys have to make sure the strike package gets through, and it's just as much of a challenge. The one big advantage now is that if a bomber has someone flying it, then maybe they'll be listening to the radio and will go "Well, we better hold at our IP, it sounds like they aren't ready for us just yet", and then once things have been cleared, fly the attack profile. With the AI it'll just go "oh look at all the pretty explosions" as SAMs and AAMs are exploding around them because things took longer with the fighter sweep or SEAD strike than expected.

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50 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

Tell that to the SEAD flight that made that operation possible.

Yeah but in DCS MP by the time the SEAD was able to do this job the mission would be over. 

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1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Sure. For SP or Co-Op that’s an option. I don’t see the B-52 or AC-130 being able to participate in general multiplayer because

…as you have demonstrated in every thread you've trolled, you have no idea how MP works, you have no idea how mission design works, and ultimately have no idea how any part or component of DCS works. Your lack of insight, imagination, and experience does not mean something is impossible — it just means you haven't thought about it because you don't have the prerequisite knowledge and comprehension of the topic to do so.

Any aircraft is able to participate in “general multiplayer” for the simple reason that you design the mission to make that possible. Based on what you have described every time you try to keep DCS from improving, your experience with the game and its MP components in particular is some catastrophically poorly designed and incoherent mishmash of units just being thrown together without any forethought or actual design behind it — just a bunch of them dumped into the mission editor to have them fight each other. Basically, the mission designer version of shaking an ant farm and giggling like a simpleton because he couldn't think of something more constructive.

As such, you apparently cannot conceive of a well-designed, well-balanced, thought-out, and actually constructed mission that uses its unit composition for a purpose, with a specific goal in mind.

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

So these modules would be costly to develop and yet have a limited way in which you could use them. 

No more limited than any other module in the game. They all require the same thing to make them useful.

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Don’t forget the fact that these need multiple crew members to operate realistically. Getting more than two players in an aircraft is probably a lost cause.

That is your hallucination backed by nothing but wilful ignorance and incredulity — something wholly separate from “fact”, in other words.

The fact is that we already have aircraft that can fit more than two players in them. The fact is that we already have multicrew aircraft that operate realistically without the other crew positions filled. Just because you don't know these things doesn't suddenly make your reality-defying assumptions factual.

  

4 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Yeah but in DCS MP by the time the SEAD was able to do this job the mission would be over. 

Nope. Because you'd design it not to be. This is a very simple concept that you have yet to understand.

 


Edited by Tippis
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1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

Yeah but in DCS MP by the time the SEAD was able to do this job the mission would be over. 

SEAD is supposed to be first, last out, so their job isn't over until the strike package is out. If you're talking DEAD, then what the heck are they doing that's taking so flipping long to get the job done?

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52 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

Seriously, at that point, what's the difference between a BUFF being the strike package, and a pair of Hogs?

The BUFF is a strategic level aircraft and DCS is basically a tactical level game. The type and size of targets here aren’t really suitable for a strategic bomber. This is a more suitable game for an A-10. The Hogs are more flexible and still capable of destroying all the targets that it’s possible to put in a DCS game. This game can’t simulate the large troop concentrations etc that would justify using a B-52. 

Just now, Tank50us said:

SEAD is supposed to be first, last out, so their job isn't over until the strike package is out. If you're talking DEAD, then what the heck are they doing that's taking so flipping long to get the job done?

I’m using MP as an example because a multi-player plane pretty much begs to be used online. If you play on the dynamic war servers you’ll see they are just thick with SAM sites that would make using a big heavy bomber just impractical. It probably takes days of gameplay to clear out these target areas. 

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14 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The BUFF is a strategic level aircraft and DCS is basically a tactical level game. The type and size of targets here aren’t really suitable for a strategic bomber.

You mean factories, logistics centres, depots, large military installations… cities… Those things that the DCS maps are just littered with?

Have you considered actually starting the game and looking at the map every once in a while? 😄

14 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

This game can’t simulate the large troop concentrations etc that would justify using a B-52. 

Good news: while DCS can indeed simulate the large troop concentrations that you probably wouldn't use a B-52 against anyway, the Buff has plenty of targets where its use is justified and which are present in large quantities in the game by default, or which can be added in the mission editor.

14 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I’m using MP as an example because a multi-player plane pretty much begs to be used online.

…and that doesn't really answer the question, now does it.

Oh, and your first ridiculous notion was that by the time SEAD was done (which would be the last thing that happened, after the B-52 did its job and was on its way back to base), the mission would be over (but then, the B-52 would also be done so that doesn't matter, now does it). Now you're trying to amend this by pointing to dynamic war scenarios where, by very definition, the mission is never over, so there would be plenty of room for the Buff to do its thing. You really are just utterly incapable of not stumbling all over yourself and proving yourself wrong aren't you?


Edited by Tippis
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1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

This game can’t simulate the large troop concentrations etc that would justify using a B-52. 

Who the heck uses a BUFF to pound that? There's still plenty of rail yards, ports, factories, and airfields that the BUFF can easily lay waste to. And on top of that, the B-52 can carry the Harpoon, so if there's a concentration of ships that need to be turned into artificial reefs, the BUFF can do it just as well as a Hornet or Viggen can.

Again, this is going to turn into a case of you going "I don't want bombers", and looking for any straw to support that argument claiming it's what the majority wants. But so far every single argument you've made for why bombers shouldn't be in DCS, has been proven wrong. During Vietnam, B-52s took off from bases in Laos, the equivalent to flying from Anapa to Tiblisi in Caucuses. During the Gulf War they flew from bases in Saudi Arabia hitting targets deep inside Iraq.

It's perfectly possible to have bombers forward deployed to trouble spots. It's a massive show-of-force that shows the opponent that we're not playing around, and bad things are going to happen if they don't come to the peace talks now.

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8 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

During the Gulf War they flew from bases in Saudi Arabia hitting targets deep inside Iraq.

Under a condition of air superiority that you would wouldn’t be able to reproduce in MP. Who’s going to keep playing the enemy after their air force is wiped out? 

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On 4/22/2022 at 10:06 PM, Mike Force Team said:

Where is the AC-130 mod found? What is the URL?

MFT

Same mod as the C-130J Super Hercules. 

Don't get too excited though, the gunship variant  is  not terribly realistic. Maybe it's improved since then, but when I last looked at it, the guns were fixed... you couldn't aim them like on a gimbal or turret  like real life. Nor would the sight calculate the ballistics  like lead computing, slant range ballistics calculations and such.  So not really like even the earliest Specters... but I  can't  really complain,  it's a free mod, and Ive no idea how to code anything, much less  code an improvement to the  AC130 !!!

The newest AC's have additional capabilities too, with glide bombs using GPS and laser designation, laser Hellfires  and  such.

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12 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

There's still plenty of rail yards, ports, factories, and airfields that the BUFF can easily lay waste to.

Those targets can be attacked by precision weapons carried by the multi-role aircraft in DCS. Frankly air forces don’t “lay waste” to tagets anymore. 

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13 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Under a condition of air superiority that you would wouldn’t be able to reproduce in MP.

Yes you would. Stop assuming airquake as the only available mission setup.

10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Those targets can be attacked by precision weapons carried by the multi-role aircraft in DCS.

Not with the same amount of firepower, no. That's kind of the whole point of a heavy bomber, after all…

  

10 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Frankly air forces don’t “lay waste” to tagets anymore. 

You haven't been keeping up with current events, have you? Jfc that's just insulting levels of not paying attention. :doh:


Edited by Tippis
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Imagine trying to SP these things with 4-5 other “Jester” AIs. Having just one of these to deal with is a bit of a chore. I don’t know how you’d handle 4 or 5 of them some of which probably need to communicate with each other and not just the pilot. Again having more than two players in an aircraft is problematic. An AC-130 has 14 crew members. 


Edited by SharpeXB

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41 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Those targets can be attacked by precision weapons carried by the multi-role aircraft in DCS. Frankly air forces don’t “lay waste” to tagets anymore. 

DCS isn't limited to today, so "anymore" shouldn't have much to do with it. Ignoring that though, you need to send many attack aircraft to bring the same firepower as a bomber and this might be a necessity even if you're not trying to carpet bomb. The oil refinery in Bandar Abbas is a good DCS target for a heavy bomber.

The bombers can also deal with threats and don't need completely sanitized airspace. ECM and escorts are enough.

The following would be pretty applicable to DCS:

 

  

5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Imagine trying to SP these things with 4-5 other “Jester” AIs. Having just one of these to deal with is a bit of a chore. I don’t know how you’d handle 4 or 5 of them some of which probably need to communicate with each other and not just the pilot. Again having more than two players in an aircraft is problematic. An AC-130 has 14 crew members. 

 

It's not really anything new. You already need to manage up to 3 AI if you lead a flight. Possibly more with mission F10 custom radio options. There is also the possibility of giving the AI simplified systems to work with, or just simulating the non player crew as one general AI (ie like ships). There are plenty of options here.


Edited by Exorcet
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Awaiting: DCS F-15C

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23 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Imagine trying to SP these things with 4-5 other “Jester” AIs.

Ok. I imagine it wouldn't be 4-5 of them, but just one that did everything. Any need for them to talk to “each other” would be black-boxed and you wouldn't even see it. Quite simple, especially compared to having to wrangle a full set of wingmen who refuse to do anything you tell them to.

What matters is the set of functions and actions that can or need to be offloaded to other stations, and that set is pretty much the same no matter the aircraft. It can be a crew of 2 or 5 or 15 and still be four or five distinct functions: navigation, comms, weapons setup and delivery, maybe ewar — just because there are more people manning them doesn't mean the set of actions is also increased.


Edited by Tippis
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40 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

There is also the possibility of giving the AI simplified systems to work with, or just simulating the non player crew as one general AI (ie like ships).

I’m sure someone will have a total meltdown if every knob and switch isn’t modeled. Trying to do something like a B-52 to DCS full fidelity standards doesn’t seem feasible. 

42 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

The bombers can also deal with threats and don't need completely sanitized airspace. ECM and escorts are enough

Depends on the era. I don’t know how you’d expect to fly a big bomber anywhere near a modern SAM system. 

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1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

I’m sure someone will have a total meltdown if every knob and switch isn’t modeled. Trying to do something like a B-52 to DCS full fidelity standards doesn’t seem feasible. 

Every knob and switch would be modeled. It's the AI that would be simplified, not the module. Example, if the AI is in control of weapons it might use the targeting code used by non player aircraft, bypassing the need for TGP's, or precise GPD coordinates, etc. If the player hopped into this station, full functionality would be present.

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

Depends on the era. I don’t know how you’d expect to fly a big bomber anywhere near a modern SAM system. 

We can setup any kind of situation in the ME. Modern bomber force vs poorly funded enemy with old tech, it's not a problem.

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Awaiting: DCS F-15C

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3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I’m sure someone will have a total meltdown if every knob and switch isn’t modeled.

So what?

They wouldn't even be playing DCS if they were that fragile since none of the modules, past, present or future, would live up to their standards.

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Depends on the era.

Good news: DCS is not limited to a single era.

In fact, the way it is set up at the moment, it cannot even be a single era since that's not supported by the collection of units available.

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❧ ❧ Inside you are two wolves. One cannot land; the other shoots friendlies. You are a Goon. ❧ ❧

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This is a wishlist item .. why keep debating with people that can't understand the concept? .. better to wait until he makes a wish and then troll his thread 😃

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16 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

If the player hopped into this station, full functionality would be present.

But apparently nobody wants to even play the RIO in the F-14. So why would they want to be the Navigator or EW officer in the bomber? Sitting in the bowels of the plane looking at a screen the whole flight. Everyone seems to want to just be the pilot.

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3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Sure. For SP or Co-Op that’s an option.

And MP...

There's a grand total of nothing stopping mission designers from making a MP mission as described.

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

I don’t see the B-52 or AC-130 being able to participate in general multiplayer because, for whatever reason, those missions are set up with a heavy level of air defense that’s very difficult to suppress.

Again, entirely a mission editing problem.

You could make a similar argument for absolutely every module in DCS.

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

So these modules would be costly to develop and yet have a limited way in which you could use them.

"have a limited way in which could use them"?

You realise DCS is a sandbox right? How you use them is completely up to you. There's no limitation whatsoever in regards to what missions you can put these aircraft in - it is solely a mission design problem.

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Don’t forget the fact that these need multiple crew members to operate realistically.

And?

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Getting more than two players in an aircraft is probably a lost cause.

Based on?


Edited by Northstar98
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35 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

There's a grand total of nothing stopping mission designers from making a MP mission as described.

But such a mission would only be suitable for the B-52 itself as any lightly defended objectives will just get stolen by the attack planes. It’s not that missions can’t be made,  it’s that the Buff doesn’t fit into general MP and so it would have limited use and appeal. 

38 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Based on?

What Nick Grey himself said in the video. Why design a full fidelity module where not enough players will want to use all the crew positions? And DCS only does full fidelity. 

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1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

But such a mission would only be suitable for the B-52 itself as any lightly defended objectives will just get stolen by the attack planes.

Then make sure players only attack their objectives, this sounds like it's only a problem exclusively in free-for-all servers where everyone just does whatever.

Hardly the only possible way to play DCS.

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Modules I own: F-14A/B, Mi-24P, AV-8B N/A, AJS 37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk.

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12 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

Then make sure players only attack their objectives, this sounds like it's only a problem exclusively in free-for-all servers where everyone just does whatever.

Hardly the only possible way to play DCS.

Good luck controlling people online. 😜

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9 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Good luck controlling people online. 😜

Yes, I am such a harsh authoritarian.

"Hey you, can you hit xxxx and not hit yyyy?"

And something something, private servers.

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Modules I own: F-14A/B, Mi-24P, AV-8B N/A, AJS 37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, F-16CM, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, Mi-8MTV2, UH-1H, Mirage 2000C, FC3, MiG-15bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), P-47D, P-51D, C-101, Yak-52, WWII Assets, CA, NS430, Hawk.

Terrains I own: South Atlantic, Syria, The Channel, SoH/PG, Marianas.

System:

GIGABYTE B650 AORUS ELITE AX, AMD Ryzen 5 7600, Corsair Vengeance DDR5-5200 32 GB, Western Digital Black SN850X 1 TB (DCS dedicated) & 2 TB NVMe SSDs, Corsair RM850X 850 W, NZXT H7 Flow, MSI G274CV.

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On multiple threads on this forum, it has been said that a >2 engines full fidelity module is currently not possible within DCS.
 
(But perhaps this used to be the case and things changed . I'm happily corrected by someone with actual programming knowledge )
Okay, seems to have changed.
In the Lancaster thread to dev says that he believes that EFM is capable of 20 engines, and SFM only two.
So "6 turners og 4 burners" shouldn't be an issue any longer.

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