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DCS takes the simulations too literally to be fun or practical.


gotit

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28 minutes ago, rcjonessnp175 said:

Don’t like realism go somewhere else and find entertainment.  For allot of us growing up as kids first discovering those flight sims and just deep diving into them and the realism it lit a fire in us,  did for me.  Dcs is exactly that, now as a old fart post career it’s great to have a realistic combat flight sim in life again.  Enjoy the struggle and enjoy the hard work it pays off,  this is something the modern society has lost touched with in my opinion, that’s a deep rabbit hole….  Grumpy rant complete 

Look at all the YouTubers for example, you have the hardcore realism folks with virtual units and then you have groups of friends just screwing around having fun in dcs.  It’s all in the sim already you just have to find it and exploit it.

 

I agree with this, as I just fly around plink targets for now. I mean I'm learning, or relearning the A-10C and so on. I may graduate to other modules but for now I'm fine with doing what I want to do, and that's have some fun doing it. If it means learning the plane so be it as I'm not put off with the clickey cockpit and so on. It's just a learning thing and learning something new is always good.

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It's worth remembering that DCS does have a "game" mode.

Nothing wrong with a person using DCS in that way, after all, that's what the mode is for.

Just because a good deal of the community (and in particular those enthusiastic enough to come to the forums) are typically a big more "hard core" in their approach, doesn't preclude from wishing to chill a bit more.

It's worth remembering that the "more chilled" players are also funding what is the best sim around (in my opinion), so if anything we should be a LOT more welcoming to them as the more there are, the higher the funding levels will be for both new modules and core game updates.

 

As for achieving a "real" experience, just consider DCS as another expensive hobby.  Just as some are happy to spend LOTS on fast cars, Swiss watches, esoteric hi-fi kit and model railways, it's very easy to fall down the rabbit hole in DCS and go out to add those elements to enhance immersion.  Typical examples include VR, seats that "wobble" to reflect G forces, motion rigs and HOTAS/rudder/button boxes that emulate the style of the real thing.

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In the forums of almost every game or simulation there are people who are whining that the learning curve is too high, that the game is unbalanced, that the opponents are too strong, and so on.
But in most cases, the problem is not the game or simulation, but the players themselves. They simply don't have the time, patience, situational awareness, responsiveness, or talent to master it. Instead of accepting that it's not the right one for them, they say there's something wrong with it.

Related to DCS: If it's too strong, you're too weak 😉

 

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@gotit My judgement is that DCS is among the worlds top drawer of flight simulators and this brings with it a level of complexity which is itself, the draw, the attraction. With that sentence, I set out my stall.

Your post title is provocative and I did read your OP text twice to ensure I didn't mis-understand.  Your opening line is one I adamantly disagree with and my reading of the remainer of your post does little to convince me otherwise. Your position is well noted and given you shared it on this public forum, I'll share my particular view and experiences by way of countering yours and hopefully, develop the discussion for all reading it.  

I'm one of those who has gotten drawn in a little. I purchased a good solid HOTAS flight control solution (joystick, throttle and rudder pedals) and I've built a USB button box for additonal physical controls at my finger tips. I quickly realised the limitation of using a keyboard though, I do use the mouse in cockpit.  I've even DIY'd my seating position and controls to mimic a generic plane cockpit (throttle on my left by my leg, joystick between my knees, button box to my right). This has absolutely not made me a better sim pilot / dog-fighter. It does allow me to fly for longer at a time, avoid fatigue and afford me an overall more enjoyable playing experience. I've recently further enhanced my experiece with VR and I am very thankful for the tremendous attention to detail offered in the DCS. It's make the critical difference.

Regarding joystick setup, curve setup and the overall adjustments and tuning for flight accessories, this can be something of a frustration for sure and very often is an iterative process of, change a little, test, adjust more, re-test and so on. The end result is subjective also which adds a complication but it's possible, in the main, to find a result that works well. It's also a fact that not every joystick is equal.  There are folks on these very forums who will offer to assist if reached out to them. Many have.

Regarding your notes concerning the goals of ED with their DCS modules .... I believe, within the bounds of reason, they do provide a very decent historical reference document and again, within those same limitations, they also provide a remarkable reference of what it may have been like to fly these aircraft. One of these limitations is listed in your OP text and I've quoted below. It, I contest, is rendered irrelevant in this discussion. True in absolute fact though, it indeed is!

Now this is dangerous territory. The vexed among our community may be quick to point out how ridiculous that last part reads. For them the case is closed shut. They announce that there is no way, any sim can offer any idea, of what it's like to fly the real thing. There'll be little road to travel on that discussion. That's OK.

There are others who allow a little more room for explanation/description and can appreciate, perhaps with some skepticism, that there's more to this topic than meets the eye, maybe! 

Of course, there are no G-forces or inertia at play, the smell, the taste and the full senses impact cannot be there. On face value, it's a monitor on a table in a room in a house. You can see the wall and window behind the computer. It's so blatently a PC your using!  And this is what it is. However, whether it be DCS or a TV movie, you'll surely note how quickly, when engrossed in the movie or the game/simulator, you no longer notice the window or that picture hanging in the wall beside the monitor.  Indeed, you may well to register even the monitor or TV borders.

Your notes about guitar playing come into the discussion here. Allow me a little time and space to play out my point.

I've flown WWII fighters with a like minded group for a number of years now. 

I recall the early days when I was new to the genre and the idea of flying my sim-plane in formation with another on screen was daunting. The grip on my old joystick was crippling and the initial experiecne, far from satisfying. It was a challenge and it took all my mental capacity. 

Ever been there with, early on during your first guitar playing experience, trying to learn a cord?

Over time, my skills improved to a point where the flying activity (my physical exertion) drifted into the background and all became quite natural. My mental capacity was not all used up trying to hold position.  By now, the picture beside my monitor was easily blanked out of my conscious view as I was engrossed with what I was seeing and experiencing on the monitor. At some point in time, your guitar playing became more second nature and the fingers fell on the frets almost automatically.  

I went from viewing the flight sim as a piece of software/a game/a simulator, to not viewing it as those things at all. In fact, that's the most accurately I can put it. For moments at a time, I was not mentally acknowledging I was using a sim at all, such was my level of engagement. The sim was 'realistic' enough to allow me, for periods of activity, to mentally put aside the fact that I was using a computer. It afforded me the 'illusiuon' if I was willing the accept it that I was in a cockpit, doing what I was simulating, instead of simulating what I was fantasing about doing ... almost !  (This is where I needed your patience to go with me a little) 

Then came DCS, for me a next level simulator. With it, a level of detail that furthered my experience. The ease with which I could 'slip the bound of the reality 
( sitting at a computer) and remain in the illusion of flying a spitfire was incredible. The sounds, the views and the fact that the modelling was so well done made this all the more entralling. With my friends in formation, talking on SRS with radio sounds that mimic'd VHF,  flying across the white cliffs of Normandy was thorougly delightful and joyous. A repeated refrain from one of my flying buddies was 'this is impossible' and I understood keenly what he was saying. He lives in a different country, comes from a different background, has an entirely different live experience yet here we are, together with folks from Australia, America, Europe, all lining up for a coordinated formation landing, canopies open, landing checks completed and with the virtual wind blowing across our open cockpits.  All delivered due to the incredible degree of detail and literal switch clicking realism from the models which DCS delivers.

It's akin to getting lost in a favourite piece of music which you have practiced and tuned fully into, as you effortlessly play the strings. It's beyond the physical act of strumming the cords, it's still a guitar in your hands of course, yet it's so much more.

Long to short, I cannot hold to your point that the "entire notion of simulating aircraft flight with this level of hyper-literalsim is a false promise". It's only limitiation is the user.

Speaking for myself, as an adult, quite capable of living and working in the real world and providing for my family, this attention to detail, this sought after level of realism by the developers, this almost replication of a real world plane, for all it's limitiations, is the means by which I can remain in my illusion and enjoy a cooperative experience with my like minded friends for an hour or two or more on a weekend.  Your mileage may vary.

I've waxed lyrical I know, yet I am confident I'm not alone.

You pointed out ..."No matter how technically accurate the simulation, the very notion of simulating the experience of these planes will never be the same as flying the plane."  I genuinely suggest that it is both absolutely correct and equally irrelevant. It's the comment of those vexed among us for whom the case is closed shut!

I think they are missing out personally but that is what it is.

 

S!

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by JokerMan
spelling and tidy up
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6 hours ago, gotit said:

"DCS allows me - within the restrictions of the platform - to simulate flying combat aircraft I could never even afford to climb aboard in real life."

I agree. I feel the same way.

My premise is that the company's devotion to hyperliteralism results a massive and unnecessary barrier of entry into the the fact that we're playing a video game for fun.

I guess for me, it's just too much work. It doesn't have to be this damned difficult.

There are some cases where I agree, like trigger covers. However, it's no different than any learning curve in any other genre. Simulators always present a challenge and require you to learn. It's no different than picking up on the nuances of a boomer shooter's physics or sussing out what units are your best in a strategy game.

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Reformers hate him! This one weird trick found by a bush pilot will make gunfighter obsessed old farts angry at your multi-role carrier deck line up!

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9 hours ago, gotit said:

DCS is taking the simulation approach too literally to be fun or practical.

The hyper realism is the fun. I'm here because DCS provides it. Other games don't, and they are the ones that get boring or frustrate me because they conflate simplicity and a lack of depth with entertainment.

Games don't have to appeal to everyone. In my opinion DCS has a winning formula when it comes to fun. Much, much better than your typical arcade game.

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Awaiting: DCS F-15C

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Normally I would extend an olive branch and offer a struggling DCS pilot an invitation to come get some great training from the guys in our squadron (several of us, including myself, have years of experience with these modules, and hardware). However, after reading your reasoning and logic as to why you think DCS is "too realistic" to be fun, I can simply offer this advice: I think you're better suited for something like Ace Combat, IL-2 (which is a great game), or War Thunder. There is nothing wrong with not wanting to invest the time and effort into an ultra realistic sim. But I think your error lies with coming into the forums and trying to justify to us your flawed logic.

"The pilots were not flying these planes with a computer keyboard. If they were, probably none of them would have survived."

Really? Come on...

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8 hours ago, chromium said:

this. 

But, also, remember that you can use it in game mode also! That might help a lot in finding the sweet spot you're looking for between sim and game.

 

Amen! :drinks_cheers:

 

I own a bunch of planes and choppers, and even the ones I fly a lot I don't use 100%. It's simply beyond what I consider fun. But I have found the sweet spot, as you put it, where it's a bit of a challenge, but still enjoyable. And as time goes by that sweet spot moves just a bit more and more towards full sim and away from game. 

 

And therein is my long term satisfaction with DCS; it's all about my choice. My flight, the way I want it to be.

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Some of the planes, but all of the maps!

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Yep. 

TBH, I'm an "as much as realistic as possible" fun. I even built my own AH64 collective to have some tactile feedback extend. But I also perfectly understand those that does not need full realism... as long as they don't come trying to make their way of thing as "the right one". I saw people having fun with realistic procedures using FC3 aicrafts, and I also see people using F-18s to make dogfight competitions: I don't think one or the other is wrong... cause DCS is such a free envinonment that you can have what you need without limiting anyone else. It's all up to you (and the mission designer also).


Edited by chromium
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The thing is, helicopters are different from planes. An airplane by it's nature wants to fly, and if not interfered with too strongly by unusual events or by a deliberately incompetent pilot, it will fly. A helicopter does not want to fly. It is maintained in the air by a variety of forces in opposition to each other, and if there is any disturbance in this delicate balance the helicopter stops flying; immediately and disastrously.

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I was torn on whether to make a joke or be serious - so I'll do both...

"I was on FIFA the other day and there's just too much football/soccer. Since I'm not actively kicking the ball myself, what's the point. And why can't I play baseball in it."

When I was a kid I played a game from Dynamix called A-10 Tank Killer. I'm sure I had it on full arcade mode probably with unlimited health and ammo and I enjoyed the hell out of it. When I first came across DCS maybe five or six years ago I thought, "Oh hey, an A-10 game, those used to be fun." There must have been a trial on steam or something, because I tested it a for a few hours, couldn't figure out how to turn the plane on, and decided "This isn't for me". Less than a year ago, something clicked - I honestly can't remember why, but I bought a couple modules and became "invested".  

DCS scratches an itch that I didn't know I had. 10 months after my first purchase, I've built myself a sim pit, read thousands of pages of manuals, watched hundreds of hours of videos. For the vast bulk of the people in the world that would warrant a WTF. Here I'm probably one of the more moderate members of the community! The simulation part is literally the reason I'm here. As far as practicality goes - with a very few exceptions - no game accurate depicts how the thing happens in real life. 

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4 hours ago, JokerMan said:

You pointed out ..."No matter how technically accurate the simulation, the very notion of simulating the experience of these planes will never be the same as flying the plane."  I genuinely suggest that it is both absolutely correct and equally irrelevant.

Excellent post, and the quote above pretty much nails it!  Well spoken!


Edited by Home Fries
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6 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Play nice people. 

Everyone has an opinion, its ok to have one. 

DCS is a sandbox to do with as you wish.  

Agreed Sir. I think however that the problem here is that while many of us very much enjoy the sandbox, someone felt the urge to urinate in our lovely sandbox out of what seems childish contempt for not being able to learn how to build a sandcastle. When that person could have simply asked likely anyone here for help, in learning to build sandcastles. Instead, they've pissed in it. 

I did debate making counterarguments, etc. But after having written one up, it dawned on me that this really is just someone pissing in the sandbox. Well then, I'm going back to my sandbox, and I'm taking my toys with me. Anyone who doesn't want to urinate in my sandbox is welcome to join... 

Seriously, it's just trolling or childish lasing out from someone who didn't get what they wanted. It'd be best to just shut the thread down. 

I.E., moderator, please lock this thread. California needs no more stereotype ("I don't like it, change for me!") reinforcement. 

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Hi Gotit,

It is why the rest of us are here.

This tiny little virtual corner of planet earth is where people like me congregate and enjoy our Hyper real combat simulation.

There is nowhere else for us to go.

 

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The very fact that the original author of this thread is actually seriously complaining about the realism of DCS World, is the greatest possible advertisment ED wished for. 😄

At least on these forums. 😄


Edited by Kenan
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Don’t flame me, but this post also did hit home to me.
 

DCS is really hard to even do simple things.  I’ve found myself spending much more time on IL2 the past several months BECAUSE it is more “arcady “. I can jump in, start flying in VR (with way less hassles and more fidelity than DCS) and be having. “fun” ( in my opinion) while I’d still be waiting for the INS to calibrate in DCS. 

The sheer complexity of each aircraft is also a challenge. There is little “hopping into something you flew a months ago” and having any hope of remembering all the intricacies of that plane

I get to each his own and that’s great, I just personally wish ED would spend a bit more time on the core engine and VR experience than implementing some switch that is buried in the cockpit or some new complex radar mode

To grow the community ED needs to appeal to more than the 1% hardcore enthusiasts. 

just my humble take. 


 

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2 minutes ago, plane_crazy242 said:

DCS is really hard to even do simple things.  I’ve found myself spending much more time on IL2 the past several months BECAUSE it is more “arcady “. I can jump in, start flying in VR (with way less hassles and more fidelity than DCS) and be having. “fun” ( in my opinion) while I’d still be waiting for the INS to calibrate in DCS. 

The sheer complexity of each aircraft is also a challenge. There is little “hopping into something you flew a months ago” and having any hope of remembering all the intricacies of that plane


 

Everyone has their own opinion, but posts like this can be strange to read. You mentioned INS calibrating, when it's not something you even need to learn to enjoy DCS. There are about half a dozen ways to skip it.

DCS is focused on hard core simulation, but it does not at all exclude those people who don't want to learn how to operate a plane inside and out. Some modules are more complex than others of course, but if you just want to jump into a plane and immediately get into a dogfight, DCS lets you do that.

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Awaiting: DCS F-15C

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I have to chime in on this one. I dont think you realize the people that play this sim. I run into fuckin aeronautical engineers and prior pilots on the flight line. I mean this ain't for gamers. Labor of love. 

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11 hours ago, Boomtap said:

I have to chime in on this one. I dont think you realize the people that play this sim. I run into fuckin aeronautical engineers and prior pilots on the flight line. I mean this ain't for gamers. Labor of love. 

Saw this, 1000% agree. We aren’t, generally, the Call of Duty-type gamers. I’d wager most people are more of the Arma-type people (in keeping with the fps analogy). If DCS wasn’t a “study” sim, I’d have been gone over a decade ago when this was just Lock-On in 2005. These days most games are too simple and boring due to dumbing down. I’m glad ED doesn’t subscribe to that paradigm in regards to development of features and modules. Keep up the great work ED!

ps - still in awe of the clouds in 2.7 and the F16 flight model updates!


Edited by Swoleymoley
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DCS is more of a hobby than a game. As a long time flight sim enthusiast, it was for decades a dream to have simulators that not only simulate well, but also look great. Graphics used to take a back seat to the actual simulation, it was kind of a given. Today, after decades of both software and hardware development, we seem to be in a golden age of simming, with access to stuff we've desired for years and years, the level of immersion obtainable is insane. Now me, I'm never going to be able to fly a real jet or helicopter, especially military, but I've grown up seeing and wondering at the engineering and operation of aircraft going back to the 70's. I've also been a bit of a WW2 buff and have watch countless documentaries on aircraft development through the ages, something about this stuff has captivated and fascinated me my whole life. When I was younger, aviation was a bit of an enigma to me, and over the years, I've learned more and more about it to the point where I can hold my own pretty well in a hardcore sim like DCS World and several others. That gives me a great sense of accomplishment and satisfaction, while also providing for hours upon hours of entertainment, wonder and comradery with community members. Sims like DCS World are a bit of a commitment, but flight simming was something I was semi-committed to anyways, so having such high fidelity, to really learn and get a sense of what it takes to cold start an F-14 Tomcat, taxi and launch it off the carrier, successfully perform my mission and then bring it on home and execute a perfect landing back on the carrier while chatting and laughing it up with friends, well, it's what I call fun. Having a sim pit helps, and like music theory, you can take that as far as your imagination (and wallet) warrants. You can get away with a decent desktop setup however but it really helps having experience people to help you with ideas and walk you through the process of getting things set up the best for you. A head tracker is a must. Against the advice of many, I wouldn't suggest starting out in VR it will just complicate things and possibly add another level of frustration. A good HOTAS is pretty critical, I wouldn't recommend anything less than at least a CH Fighterstick, X52 Throttle or similar and some decent rudder pedals like a set of Logitechs. If it something you're going to stick with, go ahead and get a Winwing, Warthog or Virpil setup, you won't regret it. The Gladiator stuff is good too. While a full motion simulator is more of the end game for many people, you can get a sim shaker setup like a Buttkicker or make your own, with the right software it will give you tactile vibration feedback like feeling the bumps when rolling down the runway, turbulence and aircraft shutter when you're getting too far outside of the planes flight envelope. Hardcore sims aren't for everyone, with what we have today, you can get as hardcore as you'd like but you can still take a more casual/practical approach, especially when you're getting started, and then grow into a full blown hardcore sim freak from there.


Edited by rfxcasey
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3 hours ago, Dscross said:

 

Agreed Sir. I think however that the problem here is that while many of us very much enjoy the sandbox, someone felt the urge to urinate in our lovely sandbox out of what seems childish contempt for not being able to learn how to build a sandcastle. When that person could have simply asked likely anyone here for help, in learning to build sandcastles. Instead, they've pissed in it. 

I did debate making counterarguments, etc. But after having written one up, it dawned on me that this really is just someone pissing in the sandbox. Well then, I'm going back to my sandbox, and I'm taking my toys with me. Anyone who doesn't want to urinate in my sandbox is welcome to join... 

Seriously, it's just trolling or childish lasing out from someone who didn't get what they wanted. It'd be best to just shut the thread down. 

I.E., moderator, please lock this thread. California needs no more stereotype ("I don't like it, change for me!") reinforcement. 

Doesn't bother me at all, people like different stuff, nothing to get offended or upset about.

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1 hour ago, plane_crazy242 said:

Don’t flame me, but this post also did hit home to me.
 

DCS is really hard to even do simple things.  I’ve found myself spending much more time on IL2 the past several months BECAUSE it is more “arcady “. I can jump in, start flying in VR (with way less hassles and more fidelity than DCS) and be having. “fun” ( in my opinion) while I’d still be waiting for the INS to calibrate in DCS. 

The sheer complexity of each aircraft is also a challenge. There is little “hopping into something you flew a months ago” and having any hope of remembering all the intricacies of that plane

I get to each his own and that’s great, I just personally wish ED would spend a bit more time on the core engine and VR experience than implementing some switch that is buried in the cockpit or some new complex radar mode

To grow the community ED needs to appeal to more than the 1% hardcore enthusiasts. 

just my humble take. 


 

Not flaming, I just think your 1% assessment is far far too low. You might be the 1% in this community and THATS OK! Thankfully, DCS has game mode for you. We all can be happy!

 

edit: I also primarily play in VR. Msg me if you need some help setting it up in DCS. I will say my rig is almost brand new and that is what it requires to use VR. Yes, there could be some optimization for VR in DCS (hello shuddering frames when you don’t load properly and have to reload the mission), but I find DCS more than playable with a Reverb 2. Cloud surfing is simply amazing in VR.


Edited by Swoleymoley
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I'm very glad you're playing simulators :)...

 

Sounds like you should start building a cockpit...  😉

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