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FLIR is bad, just me, realistic, or will be improved?


truebrit

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Zoomed in it looks like 1990's graphics, and searching for anything a few kilometres away is near impossible I tweaked the contrast to give a better image but at distance just as hard to find targets.

My graphics settings are pretty much all maxed.

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To an extent, realistic. 

Most FLIR systems have both OPTICAL zoom, and DIGITAL zoom.

The optical zoom actually zooms in and views a narrower area with the sensor, allowing it to see greater detail.  Typically thermal sights only have fairly low optical zoom available (like 3-4x)  The digital zoom just takes the image and makes it look bigger- but the actual data (the pixels) are not increased, it's just making it look larger on your screen.  Most cell phone cameras do the same thing when you "zoom in".  The image doesn't actually gain any detail, it just enlarges part of the image.

Most 1980s-mid 1990s FLIR systems (and even a lot of very modern ones) don't even actually take a rectangular picture; what they do is rapidly scan a "strip" of pixels, and use a reflector array to sequentially scan that line across the imaged area.  The strip is usually only 200-300 pixels resolution.  So what we usually get in the game is better than many real-world systems anyhow.

That said, I don't know the actual optical resolution for the TADS thermal sensor on the real-world AH-64D


Edited by OutOnTheOP
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Hi Truebrit,

I'm unsure what you meant to say by "1990's graphics" but the real deal is less than 1000x1000 pixels of resolution... I would say DCS TEDAC implementation is reasonable accurate (I have never used or seen one in real life but I have used high end gimballed mid wave IR cameras like the MTADS). 
The main issue with DCS is that we are seeing textures and polygons rendered in our PC screen with a limited rendering power not so much how the MTADS / TEDAC is being simulated.

Isaac

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I used military tech (vehicle mounted) IR from around 2005 and i can tell that with this (cooled, 2. gen) it was still hard finding targets 5+ klicks away (mast hight around 3 to 3,5 meters AGL). Everything more then 8km is luck or a lot of heat differnece between target and sourrounding.

There is so much heat deflection by ground surface, weather has effects.

Found some producer info on that IR we used: ^^

Zitat

Detector with 96 x 4 elements with CCD-TDI and CMOS-multiplexer

K

 

edit:

i think the newly and fresh implemented new FLIR system is still WiP (again: we play an EA module in a beta version of a game!)..... thy


Edited by Kharrn
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2 hours ago, JOEM423 said:

It seems as though targets should be highlighted much better given that metal objects give off more heat! It should be easier to pick out targets on the FLIR!!!

Metal doesn't "give off" heat exactly, it conducts heat. If there is a heat being generated by a metal vehicle, such as a running engine or weapons being fired, that heat will be fairly readily conducted to the surface of the vehicle and cause it to appear hot on a FLIR camera. Metal skinned vehicles can also heat up quite well in the sun. But if the engine is off, no weapons are being fired, and if it's not in the sun or it's night time, metal vehicles can pretty quickly match the ambient temperature. The same quality that causes metal vehicles to conduct heat from the inside to the outside works in reverse too.

The temperature of the surrounding environment plays a role too, as to see a vehicle easily on FLIR there needs to be a high temperature contrast between the vehicle and the background. In a desert sun-baked sand can get quite hot, and even a running tank may not be a significantly different temperature than the sand it's sitting on. The visible light TV versions of the Maverick missile were developed specifically because of difficulties in finding tank on hot sand in Iraq using IIR sensors. Conversely a tank with a running engine on a cold day should be picked up by FLIR very easily. Atmospheric conditions play a role too, humidity significantly impacts FLIR clarity, and IR can't see through clouds at all.

 

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6 hours ago, truebrit said:

Zoomed in it looks like 1990's graphics, and searching for anything a few kilometres away is near impossible I tweaked the contrast to give a better image but at distance just as hard to find targets.

My graphics settings are pretty much all maxed.

Digital Combat Simulator  Black Shark Screenshot 2022.04.20 - 17.30.15.47.png

 

 

FLIR is not bad, it is in fact as realistic as we can have on game. The question is: were the targets with engine on and moving? Were they still? If they are still for some time, or set like that in the Mission Editor, it will be very difficult to spot them due to the lack of difference between their temperature and the surrounding terrain, If you test it during the day you will se the vehicles temperature different of that of the ground. Or at night, if you set the vehicles to move around, you will spot them more easily.

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This is an amazing sim! 'Nuff said!:pilotfly:

 

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Something that hasn't really been mentioned is that the OP seems to be referring to the FLIR image as seen through the IHADSS projection, rather than the centre screen - surely that is the reason for the low pixel count, not an issue with FLIR?

Personally I always use the screen if CPG. It makes sense that it would have better detail than the IHADSS... I can't see 20 to 25 year old monocles having the technology for much better displays than that!

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Considering the real deal has resolution not unlike a 1024x768 display from the 1990s, I'd say that it's spot-on. 🙂 And besides, in mid-2000s display technology wasn't that great, either. A 2005 game will tend to look somewhat pixelated on a modern display, as anyone who plays oldies will know. 

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My biggest complain is distance washout, where it looks like your just looking at black and white waves.  Then you fumble playing with gain and level buttons, when suddenly AAA appears from nowhere and drops you like a rock.

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i was looking at the mission i mentioned in the other post referenced above.

image.png

also scouring the internet i did find one real picture of an image using an AN/VSG-2 (pre-1980 developed) tank sight. this is what TTS really looks like.

image.png

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Better than RL…as someone posted, the resolution is not great….loss of detail is normal.  Breaking out tires on vehicle…not so much.

 

Detail better the closer you are…but never great.

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16 hours ago, dobs said:

Better than RL…as someone posted, the resolution is not great….loss of detail is normal.  Breaking out tires on vehicle…not so much.

 

Detail better the closer you are…but never great.

At least you can tell something is there. It seems like in DCS everything is just ambient temperature.

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On 4/26/2022 at 1:05 PM, FalcoGer said:

At least you can tell something is there. It seems like in DCS everything is just ambient temperature.

Yeah, there's definitely something odd with the IR portion of FLIR. Water is hot for some reason and zoomed out, there's this weird background heat that's washing everything out despite it being nighttime. 

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I just tested something and found out that flir will pick up units that are firing or has fired recently or have traveled. Which is realistic but it doesn't count idle on units as producing heat. Like a tank that's not moving but has its engine on. So yeah. Pretty realistic for idle off units to be basically impossible to pick up until you're about 2 miles from them. But as of now there doesn't seem to be a way to make units idle on, which would make their engine compartments hot enough to pick up on FLIR.

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Am 25.4.2022 um 23:55 schrieb silverdevil:

also scouring the internet i did find one real picture of an image using an AN/VSG-2 (pre-1980 developed) tank sight. this is what TTS really looks like.

image.png

yeah tank looks pretty hot, so i guess (from my experience) it was driving around/beeing operational for some time. But in comparison, it even says in the description of the sight "Recognition range 2300M for vehicle targets"... that is not much compared to the TADS we have in DCS 😉

 

Am 26.4.2022 um 20:05 schrieb FalcoGer:

At least you can tell something is there. It seems like in DCS everything is just ambient temperature.

As long as vehicles are not moving/shooting/beeing operated, it depends a whole lot on the outside weather/temp/humidity and on the inherit vehicle systems. Remember that the enemy will also try to mask IR signature in RL (as well as silhouette etc, but i think we wont see dug in stuff or camo nettings ingame soon xD). But as stated already, the new FLIR system is WiP so i guess we will see some tuning in that. 🙂

let the AI drive around some time and you will see the vehicles are building up quite some heat. though for mission design it would be nice to give them some kind of "inertial heat" when they spawn, especially for stationary vehicles.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb WelshZeCorgi:

I just tested something and found out that flir will pick up units that are firing or has fired recently or have traveled. Which is realistic but it doesn't count idle on units as producing heat. Like a tank that's not moving but has its engine on. So yeah. Pretty realistic for idle off units to be basically impossible to pick up until you're about 2 miles from them. But as of now there doesn't seem to be a way to make units idle on, which would make their engine compartments hot enough to pick up on FLIR.

see above. A tank in a live operation in RL would try to mask signature A LOT. Afaik, most post 1970 tanks have inbuild heat dispersion systems for the engine compartment (heat is disposed to the rear over multiple vents); then there is anti radiation coting on modern tanks; and special camouflage netting like the barracuda called "multispectral protection" 

Lets just assume they do that in DCS at this moment, until ED fine tunes the new FLIR system 😉

 

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14 hours ago, Kharrn said:

A tank in a live operation in RL would try to mask signature A LOT. Afaik, most post 1970 tanks have inbuild heat dispersion systems for the engine compartment (heat is disposed to the rear over multiple vents); then there is anti radiation coting on modern tanks; and special camouflage netting like the barracuda called "multispectral protection"

in the case of an M60, the engine compartment was completely lined with insulation. the engine was diesel which also produces less heat. the exhaust blew out the back. keep in mind most tanks have a rear engine. other light armor likely has a front engine, to leave the back open for troops, which exhausts upwards.

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Games wise, it is going to bee too good or too bad. 

I go for too bad with option to turn a knob or to, to learn something. 

Also think temperature, day in the desert where all is hot the contrast is minimal. 
Flipside is 10 guys walking on frozen ground, they will stand out as beacons. 

DCS wise ....it is a bloody big task to make the hole space Ir realistic. Our pc's would grind to a halt. 

So we get close to the real thing and sometimes better. 
Just play the cards you are dealt, because you will never in DCS get into classified territory. 

Real stuff can be great if it works as intended. Don't think DCS will start enforce random errors  as standard. 

The balance of winning too hard or too easy is key. 
But you have very skilled and very unskilled peeps trying to be the best. 
Hard balance to juggle.

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On 4/20/2022 at 11:40 AM, truebrit said:

Zoomed in it looks like 1990's graphics, and searching for anything a few kilometres away is near impossible I tweaked the contrast to give a better image but at distance just as hard to find targets.

 

 

 

 

I went to an airshow a couple of weeks ago and got a chance to look and touch an AH-64D on static display.  The 2 pilots were there and really took their time to interact with the crowd.  I was able to ask a bunch of questions.  I asked why the FCR wasn't mounted and he said in the Apache's current role, it's a 300-lb weight sitting way above the helo's CG so it's usually not mounted.  He said it would be useful in a peer/near-peer conflict but not in the COIN stuff they're doing now.  I then asked if the TADS was where the magic happened and he said that it was a system from the 90s that was badly in need of an update.  In his words, it was "trash", LOL.  So it turns out even RL pilots wish for fixes and improvements even though the gear and tech is working as intended 😛

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@Smashy Ask a soldier in 2025 about his/her "state of the art" equipment from 2021 and you will most surely get the answer: "its trash" 😉 (maybe with rare exceptions ^^)

Every equipment fielded (maybe expect in special forces) is already (kind of) "out of date" compared to the current tech you can get from the market or which is available as prototype. At least thats from my experience in the german armes forces. But most armies all over the world deal with kind of old equiment, mainly cause of monetary reasons (afaik).

Arms/ defense industry and the whole process of demand to distribution (of equipment to the armed forces) is loooooooooooooong. At least in most of the cases during "peacetime".

 

@macedk +1

 

on the topic: as LooseSeal already stated, OP is looking on the IHADSS projection of the TADS. I testes it in comparison to the normal NV-Goggle. It seems like if you "zoom in", the IHADSS is simulated picture-in-picture while the NVG is just an overlay. So NVG zoomed will be pretty clear with some artifacts building due to texture anti-aliasing i think. IHADSS zoom will get blurry pretty fast. BUT zooming with your "eye" isnt possible in RL and ingame its just a little help, especially since we dont have binos for the A10 drivers 😉 Also zooming on a picture that is some mere inches in front of your eye (IHADSS) will render that pretty blurry too 😄

Just my 2 cents thinking about the OPs "problem".

K

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I still see funky stuff in flir on the tads...but it is early days and it is progressing in the right direction 🙂

@kharn thx 🙂

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