Can the Pilot Fire Hellfire Missiles

[Semaphore]

Is it possible for the Pilot to fire a hellfire missiles...?

What I wish to be able to do as Human Pilot in a Multiplayer Game and without a Human CP/G is to launch a Hellfire such it will pick up theTPOD or ATFLIR lazer from an F18 flown by another Human Player.

Thanks

[ricktoberfest]

Yes. Action missile, check box is solid meaning guidance locked on laser, fire. 

[Semaphore]

I’m obviously doing something wrong then as can’t action the missiles, I can only action the gun and rockets even though I have missiles loaded on the stub wings?

[ricktoberfest]

19 minutes ago, Semaphore said:

I’m obviously doing something wrong then as can’t action the missiles, I can only action the gun and rockets even though I have missiles loaded on the stub wings?

Check keybinds i guess. 

[Amarok_73]

7 hours ago, Semaphore said:

I’m obviously doing something wrong then as can’t action the missiles, I can only action the gun and rockets even though I have missiles loaded on the stub wings?

From what distance You're trying to engage the targets with HF?

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

Since I got the Apache, I was mistaken that only the CPG could fire laser hellfires. Thanks to this post I just fired (as pilot) several hellfires successfully at targets lased by the AI CPG. What have I been missing! LoL

[Semaphore]

34 minutes ago, Amarok_73 said:

From what distance You're trying to engage the targets with HF?

It shouldn’t matter what distance I am, indeed, I should be able to get one off the rails irrespective of there even been a target as the idea is I am firing one that picks up the Lazer code from another plane.   That aside, I’m well within the range, typically around 5000 meters. 

15 hours ago, ricktoberfest said:

Yes. Action missile, check box is solid meaning guidance locked on laser, fire. 

Actually, coming back to what you have written…  I can do that as Pilot with George.  George designates the target with Lazer etc. 

What I want to do is have another human controlled plane laze for me… so question is, how do I get the HF off the rails in the direction of the enemy and pick up the planes Laser?

[Semaphore]

35 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Since I got the Apache, I was mistaken that only the CPG could fire laser hellfires. Thanks to this post I just fired (as pilot) several hellfires successfully at targets lased by the AI CPG. What have I been missing! LoL

Excellent… but can you fire HF from Pilot seat without using George so that the missile guidance uses another Lazer from a Human Controlled aircraft?

[AUS_Heracles]

16 hours ago, Semaphore said:

Is it possible for the Pilot to fire a hellfire missiles...?

What I wish to be able to do as Human Pilot in a Multiplayer Game and without a Human CP/G is to launch a Hellfire such it will pick up theTPOD or ATFLIR lazer from an F18 flown by another Human Player.

Thanks

 

Yes you can if you have coordinates to your target you can set that that waypoint as the acquisition source and fire the HF in LOAL instead of direct and the HF will guide using other players laser. You will have to set the HF to search for laser code being transmitted by the other player.

 

Regards,

John.

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by AUS_Heracles

[Semaphore]

21 minutes ago, AUS_Heracles said:

 

Yes you can if you have coordinates to your target you can set that that waypoint as the acquisition source and fire the HF in LOAL instead of direct and the HF will guide using other players laser. You will have to set the HF to search for laser code being transmitted by the other player.

 

Regards,

John.

 

 

Thanks… I will check this out but one quick question, how do I put the HF in search mode? 
Regards 

Bob 

[admiki]

You WAS the missiles, select trajectory Lo or HI, select target coordinates as ACQ source, point your nose towards the target and let it go

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

2 hours ago, Semaphore said:

Excellent… but can you fire HF from Pilot seat without using George so that the missile guidance uses another Lazer from a Human Controlled aircraft?

Yes, you can as others have said using buddy lasing. Works too with AFAC and FAC lasing (I have tried this in SP as pilot, no George). As to your question on HF Search mode, I'm not sure but once the JTAC lases, I point the aircraft at the target area and the HF is able to go to "T" (track) in the WPN page. I put ACQ to SKR to see where the missile is looking and the dotted cross is at the target (it won't necessarily be directly on the target). It seems to search for laser reflection on its own. Fire off and HF successfully hits target.   

[Kharrn]

there is a lot of helpfull stuff in here but also some kinda wrong (lets say not fully correct) information imho.

afaik:

1) LOBL trajectory is an own traj, there is no LOBL DIR or something, only LOBL.

2) LOAL can be DIR, LO or HI trajectory. All these can be used by the Apache that is firing the hellfire before lasing the target and also when firing on a "third party" laser (e.g. ground FAC or JTAC, Airborne FAC like Kiowa, other Apache,...). If you lase before firing and the laser is acquired by the missile seeker, the system will switch to LOBL automatically.

3) the ACQ source, like a Target Point will drive the constraints box of the hellfire (only in LOAL LO or HI and it is caged forward in LOAL LO and HI). The TP can be a reference to where you have to put the nose of your Apache to, to fire the missile in the direction of the target (and the laser energy). It is NOT where the hellfire is flying to like some sort of GPS fly-to-point. Each LOAL "mode" (DIR, LO, HI) has its on trajectory or "flying arc" and the hellfire will immediatelly search for a corresponding laser energy on that arc. The range to the Target Point, which can be used as ACQ in LOAL, seems to be used as the TOF (time of flight) calculation source.

vor 59 Minuten schrieb Raptor9:

Not quite. The TOF is calculated based on the range/range source, period. It has nothing to do with the ACQ or any point in the database.

If you have a manual range of 2000 meters, even if up LOAL-HI, the TOF is based on the range of 2000 meters. If you have a laser range of 559 meters, it's based on that range. If you have a Nav range of 5.2 km, it's based on that range. Slaving to a point in the database will enter a Nav range based on the location to that point that is set as your ACQ, but the TOF is based on the range and the range only. It doesn't matter how the range is determined, by slaving to a target point set as ACQ, by laser, or by manual entry.

 

Just tested the above by

1) putting a TP to 8 klicks, firing "on" it with a hellfire in LOAL LO, but then lase a target at 4klicks = missile hits lased target, but ToF will still count down, cause the onboard computer does not know that the missile is "dead";

2) putting a TP to 4 klicks, firing "on" it with a hellfire in LOAL LO, but then lasing a target at 8 klicks = missile hits lased target, but ToF will end at 0 befor missile hits.

("on" hereby is having the TP as ACQ and aligning the aircraft nose to it)

 

So i have seen every expected behaviour of the missile which i read in Apache documents or from youtube vids.

K

 

 

More on this topic:

Am 15.4.2022 um 15:56 schrieb Raptor9:

The reason you want to be in LOAL-DIR prior to firing a LOBL shot is because it slaves the Hellfire seeker to your TADS LOS, ensuring the missile sees your laser designation immediately. But yes, as S. Low said, LOBL is not the same as LOAL-DIR, which is why I like to describe it as LOAL-DIR mode instead of simply DIR. It's a more accurate and complete description to delineate the two.

If the next missile detects a matching laser code and switches to LOBL, the TRAJ setting on your weapon page becomes irrelevant at that point. The TRAJ selection is only a LOAL trajectory selection. But, the selection does affect your constraints box behavior, as well as how the seeker behaves prior to detecting a laser designation. These behaviors are illustrated in the quick start manual.

 

 

Edited April 22, 2022 by Kharrn
misleading information on my part

[Raptor9]

1 minute ago, Kharrn said:

the ACQ source, like a Target Point will drive the constraints box of the hellfire
-snip-
The ACQ Target Point though will be used by the computer to estimate the ToF of the hellfire.

To clarify two points:
1) The ACQ source drives the constraints box only in LOAL-LO or LOAL-HI, not LOAL-DIR or LOBL.
2) The ACQ source doesn't determine the TOF (or at least it shouldn't), but the current range/range source of the crewmember that has the missiles actioned.

[Kharrn]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Raptor9:

To clarify two points:
1) The ACQ source drives the constraints box only in LOAL-LO or LOAL-HI, not LOAL-DIR or LOBL.
2) The ACQ source doesn't determine the TOF (or at least it shouldn't), but the current range/range source of the crewmember that has the missiles actioned.

Thy for that insight! edited my parts.

Maybe i did write that a little bad. The ACQ Target Point though will be used by the computer to estimate the ToF of the hellfire.

Should be: The range to the Target Point, which can be used as ACQ in LOAL, seems to be used as the TOF calculation source.

vor einer Stunde schrieb Raptor9:

Not quite. The TOF is calculated based on the range/range source, period. It has nothing to do with the ACQ or any point in the database.

If you have a manual range of 2000 meters, even if up LOAL-HI, the TOF is based on the range of 2000 meters. If you have a laser range of 559 meters, it's based on that range. If you have a Nav range of 5.2 km, it's based on that range. Slaving to a point in the database will enter a Nav range based on the location to that point that is set as your ACQ, but the TOF is based on the range and the range only. It doesn't matter how the range is determined, by slaving to a target point set as ACQ, by laser, or by manual entry.

Btw just fired 4 missiles on a ground FAC lase in LOAL-DIR at 5.6km with 6sec between shots. Worked like a charm (as long as FAC is shifting laser quickly)

Edited April 22, 2022 by Kharrn
shortened and pasted in answer to my quesiton

[Raptor9]

15 minutes ago, Kharrn said:

Should be: The range to the Target Point, which can be used as ACQ in LOAL, seems to be used as the TOF calculation source.

Not quite. The TOF is calculated based on the range/range source, period. It has nothing to do with the ACQ or any point in the database.

If you have a manual range of 2000 meters, even if up LOAL-HI, the TOF is based on the range of 2000 meters. If you have a laser range of 559 meters, it's based on that range. If you have a Nav range of 5.2 km, it's based on that range. Slaving to a point in the database will enter a Nav range based on the location to that point that is set as your ACQ, but the TOF is based on the range and the range only. It doesn't matter how the range is determined, by slaving to a target point set as ACQ, by laser, or by manual entry.

[Kharrn]

oh well i totally forgot that step, my bad Thank you for claryfing this Raptor!

So yes, the TOF is using the NAV range to the different TPs in my example. So when i shoot the hellfire it has the Nav range of 8.0 or 4.0 depending on the TP and when i laser, it cant correct that for the missile already in flight (i guess). I will test if the next launched missile will have a correct TOF (on the laser range). back in a minute or so ^^

--------------------

edit:

tested. T01 N4.0km -> TOF LOAL LO 12 sec / lased 3890m TOF LOAL LO 11sec

T02 with N8.8 -> TOF 35 sec

For testing reasons firing a missile at T02 (TOF 35sec), then shifting laser to around 4.5km and lasing, second missile firing, TOF around 13sec. second missile hits, first missile hits, TOF of first missile still counting down.

It is really nice to find out how all this works together with you guys. thy for sharing all the info im pretty confident in LOBL/LOAL now it damn, its fun

---------------------------

 

Hope i did explain that correctly now - else i have to relearn english

K

Edited April 22, 2022 by Kharrn

[Semaphore]

Excellent… I can now fire missiles and get warhead on foreheads from the Pilot seat using a JTAC to laze targets. 
 

thanks everyone for your help and advice

[Aussie Pilot]

On 4/22/2022 at 4:44 PM, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Since I got the Apache, I was mistaken that only the CPG could fire laser hellfires. Thanks to this post I just fired (as pilot) several hellfires successfully at targets lased by the AI CPG. What have I been missing! LoL

Can you please explain how you fired the Hellfire while George was lasing the target from the front seat... in Multiplayer. I would also like to be able to do that. I can get him to lase and fire on targets good enough. What is the last procedure you do so you can fire instead of him.

Thanks.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Aussie Pilot

[Kharrn]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Aussie Pilot:

Can you please explain how you fired the Hellfire while George was lasing the target from the front seat... in Multiplayer. I would also like to be able to do that. I can get him to lase and fire on targets good enough. What is the last procedure you do so you can fire instead of him.

Thanks.

 

From a quick test on nevada. Never used hellfires from the Pilot seat with George lasing. I either let him lase and shoot or i use them remote on a FAC/JTAC/... laser from the pilot seat OR most times i switch to CPG and engage targets myself (cause of faster fire and target switching).

So for the engagement with Hellfires from the Pilot seat but George in CPG lasing:

Be in Pilot seat -> bring up George interface -> give him hellfires but ROE yellow (no fire at will) -> give him a target (slave) and select target from the list. George will beginn to lase -> WAS hellfires on the Pilot seat, get in position -> shoot -> watch fireworks

K

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

Can you please explain how you fired the Hellfire while George was lasing the target from the front seat... in Multiplayer. I would also like to be able to do that. I can get him to lase and fire on targets good enough. What is the last procedure you do so you can fire instead of him.
Thanks.

Yeah, as nicely explained by Kharrn above. Remember to WAS the HF or it will prompt you “weapon?” even though the command circle already instructed the CPG to select HFs. Not having CPG George go ROE weapons free is because he will not distinguish friend or foe at this stage. But if you have labels on and need to take out ground targets fast, weapons free can be useful. Slave and select targets and he fires.

[Aussie Pilot]

Thanks guys, I was kind of thinking it must be done something like that but haven't had time to test it.

One thing though, in the quick manual it says ROE green is hold and Yellow is free to fire. So is that just a mix up when you say get George to ROE Yellow?

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by Aussie Pilot

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

Thanks guys, I was kind of thinking it must be done something like that but haven't had time to test it.
One thing though, in the quick manual it says ROE green is hold and Yellow is free to fire. So is that just a mix up when you say get George to ROE Yellow?
 

Yeah ROE color in manual and sim are mixed up. As of now green is weapons free in sim.

[spikenet]

On 4/28/2022 at 8:45 PM, Kharrn said:

Be in Pilot seat -> bring up George interface -> give him hellfires but ROE yellow (no fire at will) -> give him a target (slave) and select target from the list. George will beginn to lase -> WAS hellfires on the Pilot seat, get in position -> shoot -> watch fireworks

Thanks, I have been doing that and it works great. Have you got a similar workflow for Pilot firing using JTAC doing the lase? I've had mixed success so far with it, I point the nose of the chopper at the target, use george to put hellfire in LOAL, HI and shoot the missle. Seems 50/50 chance it hits. It would be nice if the JTAC transmitted the target info as entering the coords in VR is not particularly easy

 

[Kharrn]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb spikenet:

Thanks, I have been doing that and it works great. Have you got a similar workflow for Pilot firing using JTAC doing the lase? I've had mixed success so far with it, I point the nose of the chopper at the target, use george to put hellfire in LOAL, HI and shoot the missle. Seems 50/50 chance it hits. It would be nice if the JTAC transmitted the target info as entering the coords in VR is not particularly easy

 

No problem and good to hear

Keep in mind that especially for LOAL HI shots you need a lot of distance to the target! see my link postet earlier. Quote from AvroLanc`s post:

Am 30.3.2022 um 13:47 schrieb AvroLanc:

All of the trajectories have minimum ranges; LOBL about 500m, DIR about 1500m, LO about 2000m, HI about 3000m. (Approx DCS testing/experiments)

Dont know if target data transmission from ground forces will come with the inclusion of data systems (think in the AH64D its called Battle Area Management (BAM)), so the only way atm is to put in 8digit grid coords by hand.

As for your question, my workflow for "remote attack" is, that i will do everything from the Pilot seat. George will usualy have the gun during that time.

Pilot seat -> contact JTAC and get grid -> put in a new Target Point with JTACs target grid coord and put the point for ACQ (to get N range to target and thereby time of flight and the direction to target) -> align Apache to target and be in-range (and not too close, depending on traj) -> WAS hellfires and choose desired LOAL trajectory and the correct laser code (standard DCS AI JTAC most times on 1688) -> tell JTAC to lase target, wait for response (for DCS AI JTAC call SPOT and IN to get the response "cleared hot") -> fire away

Note:

• from my experience it is also good to know the JTAC position to get GTL (gun target line, or in thise case Laser to Target line) to know which part (roughly) of the target will get lased;
• DCS AI JTAC will also switch targets (calling "switch") if by the mission designer the correct FAC task has been set up in the mission editor.
• i surely forgot something

Greetings

K