George any good as CPG?

[markturner1960]

Hi, after several weeks of pure flying practice, I am starting to learn and use the weapons systems. 
 

Just how good is George as CPG? Are you able to fly into harms way and basically leave him to get on with it? 
 

If not , what are the current limitations and best tactics to use him without getting a missile or ground fire in the face? 

[Toaster003]

Here a few points regarding george especially helpful when employing hellfires:

-only use consent to fire mode, otherwise george willl fire the missle as soon as he gets a lock on the target

- another thing to watch out for, is that george is unable to identify obstacles in front of targets. Resulting in non direct hit or even miss. To solve that bring up the TADS Video on your MPD so you can make sure there are no obstacles in the way

[sirrah]

Just my experience:

For sneak attacks, you best operate the CPG station yourself, as George may sometimes have LOS issues. Also, targets under trees are near impossible for George to acquire.

 

For attacking moving targets, or superhuman fast target acquiring, George is your man.

 

I like operating the CPG station, but if I'm short on play-time, I usually sneak destroy any potentially harmful threats, like SA15's (SA19's if I'm lucky), T90's and such. And the switch over to the pilot seat and have George finish off the rest, as he's much faster in finding targets.

 

 

 

Edit:

@Toaster003also made some good suggestions indeed

Edited April 23, 2022 by sirrah
Grammar

[markturner1960]

Thanks both, how do you enter consent to fire mode? Is that the same as unslaved? And whats your experience of George logic - does he for example pick the most appropriate weapon for the threat? Will he also advise of any threats spotted? 

If i see a threat and he has not or if I know the general area of a threat, how do I best direct him to that? 

Edited April 23, 2022 by markturner1960

[sirrah]

We could explain it all here with text, but it's much more easy to just watch Wags' George AI tutorial:

(CPG AI commands from 14:12)

 

And yes, George will prioritize targets. Highest threat (SAM, AAA) will be on top of his list when multiple targets are in the area. (With the exception of manpads, which are considered regular infantry by George) 

Edited April 23, 2022 by sirrah

[shrimpy_dikdik]

I haven't really touched the CPG seat myself so rely exclusively on George and so far he's OK. He's probably far better at keeping a laser on target when maneuvering than I would be!

What I don't like and believe this is being looked at is the lack of IFF and the names on the list. Just tank, APC, jet etc. Can be very confusing especially in mulitplayer where I need to either get close enough to ID myself (I'm not as well versed on military units as a fully trained CPG would be) or wait until I'm shot at and retaliate. Not ideal. Would be better for me if the list was Russian T72 for example, or even just red/blue T72. 

Also looking forward to George searching on his own initiative. A bit more like Jester I guess who would point out a bandit or bogie close by and the direction. George could do that with ground units. 

Edited April 23, 2022 by shrimpy_dikdik

[dburne]

I am in the middle of learning about George AI now myself so interesting topic for sure. So far I am doing ok at least learning some of the CPG seat in the guns training mission but still a long way to go for me.

[markturner1960]

OK, thanks, so it seems that George does need direction ? Whats your experience of his reliability in combat, can you simply concentrate on the flying and leave him to it, or do you really need ( at this stage of the release) to point him at stuff? The video dealt mainly with him in "under control" mode I think. In hand off mode, will he ask confer or just do his own thang? 

[Toge]

George needs constant attention, i.e. you as a pilot pointing specific spots where he should be looking at. To scan an area for enemies you'll point at one spot, ask george to slave there, then he tells you there's nothing. You'll repeat this for 20 times at different spots to cover the area and then go to next area. If he finds something, you'll scroll through the list of targets to see what's where. And even though he says "lased and stored" I haven't yet seen him actually store anything (not sure if I'm doing something wrong here) so if you move away from found targets, you'll have to search for them again. Definitely takes attention away from flying.

Otherwise he works ok, at least with hellfires. Just give consent to fire and he'll make sure the missile gets delivered.

Edited April 23, 2022 by Toge

[dburne]

I felt pretty good about my Apache training and going through all 4 training missions over and over. Then I watched Wags CPG and George AI video and saw man I still have a lot to learn lol. When I only had to assign 4 buttons to the George AI Helper I thought wow this should not be all that bad. Wrong - amazing how many different commands can be done through those 4 buttons LOL.

[Rhinozherous]

He is pretty good... One bad thing is that he shoots at friendlys without any warning. Identifying friend or foe is only possible when you know the exact position or show the TADS video feed on your pilot MPD. 

Another thing is the spotting list where you can choose your target. It only says "Tank" or "IFV"... would be nice to see type like "T72" or "ABRMS" (for abrams, as example). 

But I consider both points as "Work in progress" and think this will change in the future. 

[dburne]

There are so many guys so much further ahead of me in the learning process. 

And I am retired for craps sake with nothing but time on my hands LOL.

[sirrah]

12 minutes ago, dburne said:

There are so many guys so much further ahead of me in the learning process. 

And I am retired for craps sake with nothing but time on my hands LOL.

Then stop browsing the forum and make more flying hours mate

On a more serious note. The Q&A in this George AI thread might seem useful, but there's really not much to it. Just go out there and start using that George AI menu. It's actually really easy in use and within no time, you'll see what he's capable of

[dburne]

39 minutes ago, sirrah said:

Then stop browsing the forum and make more flying hours mate

On a more serious note. The Q&A in this George AI thread might seem useful, but there's really not much to it. Just go out there and start using that George AI menu. It's actually really easy in use and within no time, you'll see what he's capable of

Lol I gotta have my breaks in between.

Yeah thanks , think I just need to dig in and do it. I so wish we had more training missions that covered all aspects of the George AI functions but I am sure once I start checking them all out they will start to make sense and I will remember. Hopefully lol.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

In a nutshell, CPG George is as good as your use of the command rose. He won’t or can’t proactively search out targets other than those in the direction you tell him to look at. Procedurally he is fast, of course, being AI.

Search again (aft long press) often does ‘stop tracking’ (aft short press). So you are better off just using forward (short press) again to get George to find targets.

Trees are a problem. He sees the target behind the trees but can only store them (they are not actually stored - WIP).

Pilot George - I use mainly the FLT command rose in combat. I find CMBT is less employable as the long presses don’t seem to work well.

Update/to add:  As pilot, you select the weapons and its sub options (eg. LOBL/LOAL, rocket quantity) for CPG George via the command rose, he won't. As CPG, Pilot George will just fly straight and wherever you tell him to fly to, via the command rose. He won't perform evasive maneuvers and you have to tell him to arm the CMWS via the command rose as he won't do it on his own even in battle. I don't think he dispenses chaff and flares if CMWS is set to bypass so I leave it in auto or do it myself. Some of it is probably WIP.

Edited April 24, 2022 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[sirrah]

5 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Pilot George - I use mainly the FLT command rose in combat. I find CMBT is less employable as the long presses don’t seem to work well.

H-B command rose is very useful too! For sneak attacks from cover

[tweet]

Who is this George of whom you speak? Stevie Wonder sits in my front seat. I wish there was room for a seeing eye dog.

Kidding aside, when he works he does well enough once you become proficient using the commands. The issue everyone I know has is that at some point he stops functioning. He'll say "engaging" and "firing", TADS shows the laser firing with a valid in range, in parameters, and a clear LOS, but that's it. Nothing happens. This usually after several well placed shots. Other times he indicates "slaved", "deslaved" and has the crosshairs on a valid target but nothing else happens. Sometimes it's possible to get him back in the game, sometimes not. I'd love to have a virtual yardstick to bang on his helmet or a virtual dog to bite him when he zones out. It's strange but the sort of thing I expect in an early release module.

Edited April 23, 2022 by tweet

[itarrow]

IFF has been mentioned a lot, and it is really one of the main issues in using George as CPG.

Another problem that could be important, depending on the mission, is that there is now way to tell George to target or fire to a building or a bridge or static targets.

[markturner1960]

OK, sorry to go a little bit off the original topic, but been tryiong to practice, cant get George to fly properly.......can someone take a look athese tracks and see if they can work out what is going wrong with him? One, i took over as CPG near the target, he starts flying like he is drunk, then 2nd version, I use George from take off, but he wont fly to the direction I set, is all over the sky  and ignores the speed instrcutions......dioes not help me as the CPG trying to work this stuff out!!!

george.miz.trk george2.miz.trk

Edited April 24, 2022 by markturner1960

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

One other thing you could get CPG George to do is lase and track an enemy helo. Then as pilot you fire the hellfire. The AI is naturally better at keeping the laser on the helo and there’s a chance your missile will hit the target.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

OK, sorry to go a little bit off the original topic, but been tryiong to practice, cant get George to fly properly.......can someone take a look athese tracks and see if they can work out what is going wrong with him? One, i took over as CPG near the target, he starts flying like he is drunk, then 2nd version, I use George from take off, but he wont fly to the direction I set, is all over the sky  and ignores the speed instrcutions......dioes not help me as the CPG trying to work this stuff out!!!
george.miz.trk george2.miz.trk

Sorry I can’t watch your tracks as it says a mod is required. Alternatively if it’s not too much trouble you could do a screen recording of the relevant segment and put it temporarily on YouTube.

[markturner1960]

Oh, sorry...I probably wont have time to do that. Dont worry! 

[Captain Orso]

Let's take a quick look at George, in general. George is passive, still, unfortunately. He will not proactively search the landscape for targets. If the mission you are playing allows for labels, you better turn them on, especially in VR, or else you will only find enemy units when they shoot at you.

If you tell George to search an area, he will search a very wide arch, like a minimum of 45° each left and right of the point you designated; probably more, but I haven't specifically tested it.

I think there may be some limit on the number of units he finds, which is probably good, because in a TRE he might pull up a couple dozen targets. I think he starts from the point you designated and works outwards from there, and when he's fund his limit, he says "locked and saved" or something like that, and you get the list of targets from which to choose, in order of importance.

==> BIG TIP HERE <==

Here's a BIG TIP I haven't seen mentioned here yet. Before even lifting off, do the following:

• Pull open the George command rose
• Select Hellfires (left-short once) so that in the command rose the selected weapon is Hellfire.
• Go to your right MPD
• Press VID
• Press L2 (CPG Sight)
• Press T6 (TADS)
• Press L3 (Z-oom)

This will put George's zoomed, TADS view onto the right MPD. Every target Georges aims at, will be zoomed in on, in the right MPD. You can see if there are tree branches in the way, if the target is between two buildings and you might easily wander off it, if it is just above the trees or a roof and if you drop even a little, you will block the laser from painting it. You will see nearly everything you will need to know, to make a shot good, before authorizing George to shoot, and what you need to do to make it easy--and possible--for George to stay on target with the laser.

In the right MPD you will also see, just above the FOR (Field Of Regard) box, any message in while, which indicates why George is not ready to fire, such as HELLFIRE NOT READY, BAL LIMIT, or BACKSCATTER.

If you get HELLFIRE NOT READY

Check if the selected channel and LRFD codes are the same. If you've already fired an Hellfire, it is likely they are, unless you've changed either.

Check the WPN page if the white Hellfire (selected) has any code inside the icon other than just "L". Anything else is an issue.

Visually look at the pylons. I've had half wings shot off while the selected HF was "hanging" on the missing half wing-stub, and the WPN page didn't notice anything wrong . In such a case, select ONLY the missing pylon, on the Stores Jettison Panel, and press the jettison button. Now the system will recognize that the missing missile are not there, and pick another to fire next.

It's important that you use the right MPD, because any time you get a "rotor rpm low" or ".. high", the left MPD will pull up the ENG page, thus throwing out your CPG TADS view. Put TDS or WPN on the left. They can be pulled back up with a single button press.

--

The only one situation, in which you can let George "Go Wild"; if there are numerous unarmored targets. Give George the Gun, and give him Consent To Fire (command rose: up-long, text in command rose will change from yellow to green). Now simply point towards soft targets and up-short once to tell George which direction to attack and he will let loose for as long as there are targets he can find 

You still have to pay attention to what he's doing, because if he starts in on a tank he cannot kill, he will simply fire on it until the ammo runs out. So you may have to guide him to a different target, in such cases.

If new targets are found, you will have to designate them with up-short, so if you are attacking a convoy up a road, and the end of the convoy was not in sight when you started the attack, you will have to designate the vehicles at the end of the convoy for George to attack them.

Hope this helps.

Now go have fun!

Edited April 25, 2022 by Captain Orso

[markturner1960]

Fantastic, thanks, that’s the sort of thing I was looking for!

[admiki]

12 hours ago, Captain Orso said:

Let's take a quick look at George, in general. George is passive, still, unfortunately. He will not proactively search the landscape for targets. If the mission you are playing allows for labels, you better turn them on, especially in VR, or else you will only find enemy units when they shoot at you.

If you tell George to search an area, he will search a very wide arch, like a minimum of 45° each left and right of the point you designated; probably more, but I haven't specifically tested it.

I think there may be some limit on the number of units he finds, which is probably good, because in a TRE he might pull up a couple dozen targets. I think he starts from the point you designated and works outwards from there, and when he's fund his limit, he says "locked and saved" or something like that, and you get the list of targets from which to choose, in order of importance.

==> BIG TIP HERE <==

Here's a BIG TIP I haven't seen mentioned here yet. Before even lifting off, do the following:

• Pull open the George command rose
• Select Hellfires (left-short once) so that in the command rose the selected weapon is Hellfire.
• Go to your right MPD
• Press VID
• Press L2 (CPG Sight)
• Press T6 (TADS)
• Press L3 (Z-oom)

This will put George's zoomed, TADS view onto the right MPD. Every target Georges aims at, will be zoomed in on, in the right MPD. You can see if there are tree branches in the way, if the target is between two buildings and you might easily wander off it, if it is just above the trees or a roof and if you drop even a little, you will block the laser from painting it. You will see nearly everything you will need to know, to make a shot good, before authorizing George to shoot, and what you need to do to make it easy--and possible--for George to stay on target with the laser.

In the right MPD you will also see, just above the FOR (Field Of Regard) box, any message in while, which indicates why George is not ready to fire, such as HELLFIRE NOT READY, BAL LIMIT, or BACKSCATTER.

If you get HELLFIRE NOT READY

Check if the selected channel and LRFD codes are the same. If you've already fired an Hellfire, it is likely they are, unless you've changed either.

Check the WPN page if the white Hellfire (selected) has any code inside the icon other than just "L". Anything else is an issue.

Visually look at the pylons. I've had half wings shot off while the selected HF was "hanging" on the missing half wing-stub, and the WPN page didn't notice anything wrong . In such a case, select ONLY the missing pylon, on the Stores Jettison Panel, and press the jettison button. Now the system will recognize that the missing missile are not there, and pick another to fire next.

It's important that you use the right MPD, because any time you get a "rotor rpm low" or ".. high", the left MPD will pull up the ENG page, thus throwing out your CPG TADS view. Put TDS or WPN on the left. They can be pulled back up with a single button press.

--

The only one situation, in which you can let George "Go Wild"; if there are numerous unarmored targets. Give George the Gun, and give him Consent To Fire (command rose: up-long, text in command rose will change from yellow to green). Now simply point towards soft targets and up-short once to tell George which direction to attack and he will let loose for as long as there are targets he can find 

You still have to pay attention to what he's doing, because if he starts in on a tank he cannot kill, he will simply fire on it until the ammo runs out. So you may have to guide him to a different target, in such cases.

If new targets are found, you will have to designate them with up-short, so if you are attacking a convoy up a road, and the end of the convoy was not in sight when you started the attack, you will have to designate the vehicles at the end of the convoy for George to attack them.

Hope this helps.

Now go have fun!

 

Excellent post. I already do all of that myself, with only one difference, you don't need to select HF to get video feed, which I use all the time when in the AO