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MiG-19 FM Dynamic stability comparison to MiG-15 and F-86


HWasp

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18 hours ago, HWasp said:

feels much more realistic

I beg to differ, can't share the enthusiasm.

Pitch oscillations are totally overdone now.

I'm no aerodynamics nerd, I just fly planes, so can someone show me why it is supposed to be more realistic that the MiG-19 (like other DCS MiGs used to, MiG-21 seems to have improved a little, just checked again) now wobbles in pitch if you pull a little harder on the stick (without getting to "extreme" AOAs of 18° and above).  Got any video of any other plane doing that in a hard turn?

You can see it in most slightly harder turns or pull-ups that the nose initially starts to move fast or rather bumps up, then there's a bump down, then the nose accelerates again and now maintains its speed, despite stick pressure being quite constant. The faster the MiG-19P gets, the less the problem, ok, but an 9 tons dart going at 500-600 km/h should still not behave like a tumbleweed.

MiG-19P_AOA_wobble.trk


Edited by Volator
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2 hours ago, Volator said:

I beg to differ, can't share the enthusiasm.

Pitch oscillations are totally overdone now.

I'm no aerodynamics nerd, I just fly planes, so can someone show me why it is supposed to be more realistic that the MiG-19 (like other DCS MiGs used to, MiG-21 seems to have improved a little, just checked again) now wobbles in pitch if you pull a little harder on the stick (without getting to "extreme" AOAs of 18° and above).  Got any video of any other plane doing that in a hard turn?

You can see it in most slightly harder turns or pull-ups that the nose initially starts to move fast or rather bumps up, then there's a bump down, then the nose accelerates again and now maintains its speed, despite stick pressure being quite constant. The faster the MiG-19P gets, the less the problem, ok, but an 9 tons dart going at 500-600 km/h should still not behave like a tumbleweed.

MiG-19P_AOA_wobble.trk 4.49 MB · 0 downloads

 

Well, it is certainly more realistic, than it was before, you like it or not. 

I'm sure it can be improved, tuned further over time. For me the important thing here is, that the previous pitch behaviour is gone.

Just because something is "9 ton" doesn't make it magically stable. There is a thing called inertia, so if you introduce a high pitch rate with a sudden stick movement, it won't just stop because you stopped the stick, it will overshoot... 

 

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On 8/29/2022 at 1:16 AM, Volator said:

I beg to differ, can't share the enthusiasm.

Pitch oscillations are totally overdone now.

I'm no aerodynamics nerd, I just fly planes, so can someone show me why it is supposed to be more realistic that the MiG-19 (like other DCS MiGs used to, MiG-21 seems to have improved a little, just checked again) now wobbles in pitch if you pull a little harder on the stick (without getting to "extreme" AOAs of 18° and above).  Got any video of any other plane doing that in a hard turn?

You can see it in most slightly harder turns or pull-ups that the nose initially starts to move fast or rather bumps up, then there's a bump down, then the nose accelerates again and now maintains its speed, despite stick pressure being quite constant. The faster the MiG-19P gets, the less the problem, ok, but an 9 tons dart going at 500-600 km/h should still not behave like a tumbleweed.

MiG-19P_AOA_wobble.trk 4.49 MB · 1 download

 

I agree, flying characteristics of the Mig-19 is now ruined.

Just a click of trim and the nose is bobbing up and down like a yo yo, banked turns are just wierd now, any pitch control results in the nose springing up and down quite unaturally.

I can't see how you would possibly line up a ground attack now, let alone a gun shot to an opponent..... anyone tried it?

If this "improvement" is realistic, then kudos to any pilot who ever hit a target with this jet.

IL2 Forgotten Battles moved to similar FM's in the last updates, that's when I left that sim and never flew it again. The  overdone "springy" pitch is just outright unfun, realistic or not.

As far as realism goes, your numbers may be spot on, but this is a sim, with it's own limitations. I have enough experience in modifying FM's to know that the numbers don't always equate to the real world counterparts of our sim aircraft, or what they actually fly like IRL. As I mentioned earlier, targets were difficult to hit with the Mig-19 before the "stability" adjustments, so what to do now with the nose bobbing up and down all over the place?

If Razbam insists on this pitch model, then please add some damping to it. (Which is what I suspect they removed to begin with to get here).

What aircraft acts like a springboard when a pitch input is applied? You would fix the problem before production, lest the design become a useless platform.

The Russians have always made beautifully balanced aircraft that were well regarded by pilots, This mig-19 used to be one of them.

A Mig-19 pilot once described barrel rolling around a B-747, something he would not have done with our DCS Mig-19 in it's current condition at DCS 2.7.17.29140 Open Beta and DCS 2.7.17.29493 Open Beta.

https://hushkit.net/2017/10/30/flying-and-fighting-in-the-mig-19-in-conversation-with-wg-cdr-irfan-masum-part-1/

 

Simming since F-16 Combat Pilot on the Amiga 500, (1989), so I'm not a noob either, even if I'm new to this forum, Hi everyone!


Edited by VF19_Congo
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On 9/5/2022 at 8:01 AM, VF19_Congo said:

I agree, flying characteristics of the Mig-19 is now ruined.

Just a click of trim and the nose is bobbing up and down like a yo yo, banked turns are just wierd now, any pitch control results in the nose springing up and down quite unaturally.

I can't see how you would possibly line up a ground attack now, let alone a gun shot to an opponent..... anyone tried it?

If this "improvement" is realistic, then kudos to any pilot who ever hit a target with this jet.

IL2 Forgotten Battles moved to similar FM's in the last updates, that's when I left that sim and never flew it again. The  overdone "springy" pitch is just outright unfun, realistic or not.

As far as realism goes, your numbers may be spot on, but this is a sim, with it's own limitations. I have enough experience in modifying FM's to know that the numbers don't always equate to the real world counterparts of our sim aircraft, or what they actually fly like IRL. As I mentioned earlier, targets were difficult to hit with the Mig-19 before the "stability" adjustments, so what to do now with the nose bobbing up and down all over the place?

If Razbam insists on this pitch model, then please add some damping to it. (Which is what I suspect they removed to begin with to get here).

What aircraft acts like a springboard when a pitch input is applied? You would fix the problem before production, lest the design become a useless platform.

The Russians have always made beautifully balanced aircraft that were well regarded by pilots, This mig-19 used to be one of them.

A Mig-19 pilot once described barrel rolling around a B-747, something he would not have done with our DCS Mig-19 in it's current condition at DCS 2.7.17.29140 Open Beta and DCS 2.7.17.29493 Open Beta.

https://hushkit.net/2017/10/30/flying-and-fighting-in-the-mig-19-in-conversation-with-wg-cdr-irfan-masum-part-1/

 

Simming since F-16 Combat Pilot on the Amiga 500, (1989), so I'm not a noob either, even if I'm new to this forum, Hi everyone!

 

First of all, I don't want to claim, that the currents changes are perfect, and no further tuning is needed, BUT it is very positive, that problems are being acknowledged and changes are made. I'm sure it will be improved further.

That being said, your post is a complete exaggeration. Smooth control inputs are needed now, that is all. Claiming, that is is ruined now, and can't hit anything is just simply bullsh.t...

 

Excuse my sh.tty flying skills, but what is so difficult about making barrel rolls around an airliner now with the current FM?? Even I can do it (sort of). 

 

MiG_19IL_762.trk


Edited by HWasp
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On 9/9/2022 at 7:17 AM, HWasp said:

First of all, I don't want to claim, that the currents changes are perfect, and no further tuning is needed, BUT it is very positive, that problems are being acknowledged and changes are made. I'm sure it will be improved further.

That being said, your post is a complete exaggeration. Smooth control inputs are needed now, that is all. Claiming, that is is ruined now, and can't hit anything is just simply bullsh.t...

 

Excuse my sh.tty flying skills, but what is so difficult about making barrel rolls around an airliner now with the current FM?? Even I can do it (sort of). 

 

MiG_19IL_762.trk 551.79 kB · 1 download

 

What did you do to get their “positive” attention?

I’ve been waiting almost a year for them to even acknowledge my request to have the flaps not auto retract at such a low speed.

It’s been a burning contradiction to their own manual since it came out years ago.

Seems my request is oodles more easier to fix than yours.  Zilch response.

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