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Automated AAR Cheat?


Wile E.

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I just started flying the F-16 this month and do not have the fine control to successfully AAR, yet. Unfortunately, I can't run longer missions, because the F-16 has the fuel economy of a Lamborghini on crack. I could turn on the infinite fuel option, but I'd prefer to develop an understanding of what I can do with different remaining fuel loads (e.g. can I fly 100 nm to a base and land with only 800 lb of fuel?). So I'm wondering if there's a cheat to have the game refuel me, either a command to magically top off my tanks, or one to have the computer handle the AAR process for me.

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It's on my TODO list. I've tried it a few times in the Viper and a few in the Warthog, but I am terrible at speed matching. My plan is to (eventually) create a mission where I air start next to a tanker that's flying a straight line for 30 minutes and develop a good feel for formation throttle control. I'm decent at the stick in formation, but definitely still have a lot of room for improvement.

But I'd like to be able to do other stuff before that. I created and ran a HARM practice mission over the weekend. By the time I took off and reached 30,000 ft, my center tank was empty. And by the time I launched the missiles I was at bingo fuel.

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Then maybe instead of 4 HARMs it's a good idea to take only 2 but with 2 fuel pods instead? I mean, I don't know how you fly and how much you use the afterburner, but at some point you sure have to figure out that the target might be too far and you need to change something, no? Be it with lower RPM, lower cruise altitude, more fuel or something else...

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I wanted four HARMs on the mission so I could learn the process by repetition. With the HARM launch I did use an excessive amount of afterburner. I needed the afterburner to even get up to 30,000 ft with that load. And with HARMs I read that I should launch them at 30-40,000 ft and supersonic. The mission is launching at an SA-10 site, which easily shoots down the HARMs, so I can go back, land, refuel and rearm, then return to launch more missiles. That also allows me to practice takeoffs and landings. I ended up moving the mission to a closer airfield, so I don't run out of fuel. I now get the Big Bird warning before my gear is even up.

If I'm practicing bombs, guns, or mavericks, I stay subsonic and keep my fuel rate under 10k and can stay in the air for much longer, or fly much farther to the target site.

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49 minutes ago, Wile E. said:

It's on my TODO list. I've tried it a few times in the Viper and a few in the Warthog, but I am terrible at speed matching. My plan is to (eventually) create a mission where I air start next to a tanker that's flying a straight line for 30 minutes and develop a good feel for formation throttle control. I'm decent at the stick in formation, but definitely still have a lot of room for improvement.

But I'd like to be able to do other stuff before that. I created and ran a HARM practice mission over the weekend. By the time I took off and reached 30,000 ft, my center tank was empty. And by the time I launched the missiles I was at bingo fuel.

Please share that mission when you create it, as I also need to practice AAR.

As for the case you mentioned, afterburner on the Viper is for taking off under big loads on short runways or for defending missiles. If you need it to reach any altitude it means you are overweight. Set military and a pitch of 5° and stabilize when your AoA is more than 7°. Gain speed and keep climbing until you cannot maintain Mach 0,60-0,65. That's your ceiling.

On another note, I never have needed going supersonic or over any altitude to launch a HARM, (in fact I rarely go supersonic on purpose), and I'm hitting targets even when I launch them at deck altitude. As long as you are within the missile's range, you shouldn't have any problem other than the SAM site shooting your HARMs down, which is solved by attacking with JDAMs. 

With a centerline and going a notch below military you can have a +1h playtime fully loaded with JDAMs and 2000lb GBUs, and get back to base safely. Also, as they have mentioned, 800lbs of fuel go a really long way. 

In any case, the CRUS page will be very useful whenever ED launches it. 


Edited by Fulgrim
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20 minutes ago, Wile E. said:

I wanted four HARMs on the mission so I could learn the process by repetition. With the HARM launch I did use an excessive amount of afterburner. I needed the afterburner to even get up to 30,000 ft with that load. And with HARMs I read that I should launch them at 30-40,000 ft and supersonic. The mission is launching at an SA-10 site, which easily shoots down the HARMs, so I can go back, land, refuel and rearm, then return to launch more missiles. That also allows me to practice takeoffs and landings. I ended up moving the mission to a closer airfield, so I don't run out of fuel. I now get the Big Bird warning before my gear is even up.

If I'm practicing bombs, guns, or mavericks, I stay subsonic and keep my fuel rate under 10k and can stay in the air for much longer, or fly much farther to the target site.

If your going to do a longer mission with no AAR then you need to more fuel and energy management. If I am doing a similar mission I don’t use afterburner on takeoff, however that comes with other factors to consider. Stay out of afterburner during your climb also, your climb will be slower and once the fuel tank is empty drop it. Climb higher then needed so when your approaching launch zone nose down slightly to gain speed while out of afterburner, then use afterburner only for a short period to get to your desired launch speed. You can get some fairly good range using something like this.

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Also if you‘re running out of gas and your jet is clean, you can extend the range significantly by climbing to 30-40k ft. You‘ll barely burn fuel in military power and can easily sustain 0.8 mach depending on your stores. It‘ll get you almost anywhere with very minimal fuel burn

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 I think you're trying to do different, exclusive things at once. 4 (single/separate?) supersonic HARM launches and long-range missions are somewhat exclusive goals. If fuel is limiting your HARM practice, you could just set unlimited fuel for that specific practice.

In any case it boils down to loadouts, mission planning and fuel/energy management while flying. Viper can have long legs, but it cannot have heavy, draggy loadout, high speed and long legs all at the same time. You have to compromise. But you'll be surprised what it can do when flown optimally and with a proper loadout.

Some extra tips, even if this might be offtopic for your specific question about AAR:
- Stay off afterburner as much as possible. On takeoffs use it as necessary for the loadout and environment.
EDIT: Of course, also use AB when the situation or weapon employment calls for it, but for example don't climb with AB if not necessary.

- In general, be mindful of your throttle and speed on long cruise legs. There are real life and I'm sure DCS charts and previous forum discussions available to suggest some optimal climb profiles and cruise speeds.

Testing and experimentation was an eye-opener for me personally. Charts and discussions are good starters and I suggest looking them up, but Mission Editor is how you practice and learn 🙂.


Edited by itn
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Another little thing I see people doing wrong a lot of the time, Climbing very inefficiently. Sometimes slowly, at reduced power. This is very inefficient.

The most efficient way to climb is at MIL which is full power without afterburner. The point is to get to altitude quickly, with the minimum amount of drag.

You want to get out of AB asap as soon as you're airborne and then let the jet accelerate to your climb airspeed in MIL, once at that speed you then pitch up to try and hold that airspeed, this will usually be steep at first and then require a gentle push over to maintain the same airspeed. Keep an eye on the mach indicator in the HUD and when the mach number matches the climb mach then you ignore your airspeed from then on and just climb according to mach number, again by varying pitch angle.

The speeds for this climb profile will vary depending on your loadout or otherwise known as "Drag Index" or DI. DI 0 is essentially a clean jet with wingtip missiles.
DI 300 would be a very draggy loadout.  For a normal loadout like 2 tanks, 2 harm, 2 120s, ECM pod. I usually pick climb profile somewhere in the middle between these two extremes and it works well for me.


Drag Index (DI) = 0:
450 KIAS until Mach 0.88

DI = 300:
300 KIAS until Mach 0.72

I usually climb around 375 KIAS until Mach 0.8 and that results in a reasonably efficient climb. 

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  • Wags changed the title to Automated AAR Cheat?
12 hours ago, Fulgrim said:

Please share that mission when you create it, as I also need to practice AAR.

 

Here's the mission.

I created four options based on two choices:

A-A v. A-G: The A-A loadout is four A-A missiles and a center tank. The A-G loadout adds wing tanks and GBU-31s to make the plane a bit more sluggish.

Formation v. approach: The formation start puts you 100 ft off the tanker's 7 o'clock in the on deck position. The approach position puts you 4 nm back, allowing you to practice approaches.

The tanker, DinoCo 1-1, is flying 300 kts at 15,000 ft, with a two hour straight and level flight to STP 1. All options start you at 15,000 ft. The approach option puts you at 310 kts, and the formation option starts you at 300 kts. All options have the radio set to the tanker's channel and the internal tanks at half full, so you can practice formation flying or refueling from the same start point.

My idea was to start with the formation A-A load and practice that repeatedly, until I can stick on the tanker's wing reliably. Then I'd start practicing moving into pre-contact position, staying in formation, and trying to take on some fuel. Next I'd try to approach from 4 nm, fly formation, and refuel. Finally I'd repeat all those steps with a heavy A-G load.

practiceAAR.miz

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If you have the Marianas map, here are two of my training missions for Viper aerial refueling. One mission has the tanker going on long straight legs, the other is a circling orbit (good for practicing tanking in a turn). Both air start you at 20,000 feet with about 5,000 lbs of total fuel and 2 wing tanks (you need to tank at least 7,000 lbs to get full tanks). In the normal refuel mission the tanker is about a mile away, co-altitude, at your 2 o'clock, and flying the same heading. In the circling refuel the tanker is co-altitude, and about 8 miles ahead of you before he starts his orbit.

Tanker frequency - 251.00 Mhz

Tanker TACAN - 01Y

Tanking is harder than doing it in the Hornet, as the margin of error is narrower, but with enough practice is achievable. Gentle throttle and stick movements are key. Pay attention to the lights but don't stare at them. You should keep an eye on the tanker itself and use the lights as a reference. It also helps if you pull the bingo page up on your DED so you can quickly glance down and see your current fuel (LIST, 2), and you can also use the HUD symbology switches and have the DED display repeated up onto the HUD.

And I agree about general technique. If I'm heavy I'll do a burner takeoff, but once airborne I throttle back to MIL. I generally fly in MIL unless I have to cruise for a while and then I will throttle back a bit and save some gas. Burner only when needed. If loaded heavy, cruising in the mid 20's is good. When light, you can fly up in the 30's and low 40's.

f16 guam refuel circle.miz f16 guam refuel.miz

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You can use aircraft jumping (R alt +J) to sort of automate refueling. Set an AI plane to fly the first part of the mission for you and refuel, then jump into it after it refuels.

 

As far the F-16's range goes, it's not that bad. You just need fly efficiently. Aim to be at 30000-36000 ft around Mach 0.8. Really heavy payloads may require you to drop down to 25000 ft and Mach ~0.7 because there is a bug with exaggerated stores drag. HARM's are low drag so 30000 ft shouldn't be an issue and shouldn't require AB.

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12 hours ago, Fulgrim said:

Can you clarify this? What is the climb mach? 

So a climb profile for a jet will list two numbers. One is Airspeed and the other is mach. Essentially you select MIL, climb at the airspeed until the mach number increases to match the climb mach, then you switch to holding the mach instead of the airspeed.

In my example of 375 knots / m 0.8, I set power to mil, pitch to maintain 375 knots, climb until the mach number reaches 0.8 and then I pitch to maintain 0.8 mach for the rest of the climb.

The numbers to use will vary depending on loudout and drag. In a clean jet it’s much lower drag so it’s more efficient to fly faster with a climb profile of 450 KIAS / M 0.88.

With a high drag config, you climb at a lower airspeed and lower mach, the best compromise between parasite drag (from the payload) and induced drag (from the extra AoA required to lift said payload).


Edited by Deano87
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The so called optimum climb profile isn't the minimum fuel trajectory but a compromise which is quicker with a small fuel inefficiency (it's really small). MIL thrust and follow the airspeed or Mach reference, whichever is lower. In practice that means airspeed first then Mach above a crossover altitude. When the CRUS HOME logic is added you can compare the minimum fuel guidance to optimum.

Optimum cruise is usually 24-34kft at 250KCAS/M0.84. This depends on weight and drag. One should get 7-9 lb per nm economy cruise. With good management you can go a long, long way. I think I did a 1500nm run without refueling.

If you want to train where you shoot a lot, don't take a lot, put on infinite ammo with a normal mission load. Make separate missions for different weapons instead of hauling it all on one.

USAF rule is AB required for takeoff if available runway is less than 200% available and stay in until 300 or 350 knots. Must have 1200 pounds or more at FAF, 600 is emergency.

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On 4/25/2022 at 11:01 AM, Wile E. said:

I wanted four HARMs on the mission so I could learn the process by repetition….

 

 

Although the F-16 is capable of carrying 4 HARMs, only 2 stations (3 and 7) are wired to actually deploy the weapon.

If you want to practice SEAD check the unlimited weapons, invulnerable and infinite fuel options in the setup.


Edited by chaos

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On 4/27/2022 at 7:27 AM, chaos said:

 

 

Although the F-16 is capable of carrying 4 HARMs, only 2 stations (3 and 7) are wired to actually deploy the weapon.

If you want to practice SEAD check the unlimited weapons, invulnerable and infinite fuel options in the setup.

 

There was a huge debate about this, and what it essentially boiled down to was that most real Vipers are wired for 3 and 7, some are wired for 3, 4, 6, and 7. So ED compromised and made it selectable in the mission editor whether a DCS Viper can carry and employ two or four HARM’s in a mission.

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On 4/27/2022 at 2:27 PM, chaos said:

Although the F-16 is capable of carrying 4 HARMs, only 2 stations (3 and 7) are wired to actually deploy the weapon.

And you know this how? You are an SME on the Viper?

Since you are speaking public can you tell us your references and source?

 

ED investigated and concluded that some were capable of deploying HARM from all 4 stations, so if you cant prove your claims stop spreading false info. This thread is not about HARM anyway.

 

 

About AAR, its hard when you are just starting but with time and lots of practice it is doable, thousands of real life pilots and thousands of virtual pilots have done it, be patient and practice formation flying, I spent hours practicing it and eventually did it, now I do it I cant say easy but I do it, I fill up my tanks as needed.

It wont happen if you don't invest time in AAR.

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  • ED Team

please stay on topic for the thread of title of the thread " Automated AAR Cheat? "

thanks

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On the subject of automation, once contacting the tanker one thing that would be really nice is to have it automatically clear you in. The pre contact message could be triggered at a certain distance from the tanker to save fiddling with the comms menu. This would help a lot as the distance to clear contact is pretty close to be fumbling either with the mouse or keyboard.

I think this would be a nice option to have.

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