Jump to content

I just cant get the hang of this module (pilot)


Chad Vader

Recommended Posts

A lot of people purport to be able to fly the Apache with ease.

Wags even said in 2021 on this forum that "The apache should be the easiest module to fly, by far" or words that effect.

I try to fly this thing and it tries to kill me.

I can have a decent mission, fly up kill some targets, but im always fighting the controls, always.  Mainly rudder as i increase and decrease collective.  

Landing is hit and miss, I can come in to a rolling landing on the runway.  Landing on a fixed spot is pretty impossible for me.

The last mission I flew the apache started doing barrel rolls on the way home to base, I have no idea why it was doing this, one min its nice and trimmed out, the next, barrel rolls!!!

I can fly the KA50 so im not new to helos, but this is kicking my ass.

Ive watched a lot of videos on how to fly, VOLK is especially useful with his videos and commentary on various platforms, but I just cant seem to transpose what people are doing on to my own expericne.

Im using twist stick and I have set my curves to 15 with 90% ysat.

Any help or advice would be appreciate. If someone has time for a quick mentor session id appreciate that too.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

k-50 is different from most helos because it has a koaxcial rotor so you don't need to use rudder if you increase or decrease collective also the KA-50 has a ton of flight assist features that make it so easy that a child could fly it. Apache as it is currently has none of those which makes it mich hardwr to control. But you can get good with enough practice you just have to learn how much rudder you have to press when increasing or decreasing collective and so on. It also depends on your speed.


Edited by dextor
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Are you fine toward the beginning of the mission, and then towards the end is when you seem to lose control?  I have read of others having control issues the more you use the trim and ATT HOLD functions throughout a flight, and I just experienced it myself last night.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Twist-Rudder could always be a bit an issue. I guess Rudder Pedals is out of the question?

Some things to check:
- Check Axis, any double assignments? SomtimesEverytime you connect a new game controller (Joystick, Throttle or anything with analog axis), there will be some "Auto-Assign" to Pitch, Roll, Rudder. Clear all exept your primary controllers. Even a F-16 ICP tries to be a rudder somtimes.

- Fly with the Flight Controls Overlay, so you can check your trim state. Use Trim Reset if things go out of hand (-> Dooing Barrelrolls).

- AH-64 arent overpowered beasts. Your loadout /weight has to fit the current temperature, pressure and altitude of your AO. If in doubt, take a lighter load.

 

You will get the hang of it.


Edited by Gruman
  • Like 1

Intel I9 10900k @5.1GHz | MSI MEG Z490 Unify | Corsair Vengeance 64GB - 3600MHz | EVGA RTX 3090 FTW3
VPC T-50 Base /w Viper & Hornet Grip | VPC Rotor TCS Pro w/ Hawk-60 Grip | TM TPR
LG C2 42" | Reverb G2 | TIR 5 | PointCtrl | OpenKneeboard

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A lot of folks struggling to get their heads around the fact that the rudder has a trimmer system as well which no other DCS helo has currently.
Best advice, which has helped others, is to keep the controls indicator open and see what is going on with your inputs. 

Sometimes if making small corrections with rudder trim, releasing back to centre may sometimes not register which may be because of too large of a deadzone being set on the corresponding axis. This in turn can cause wild swings.

I really struggled at first and was so surprised as fly helos all the time and consider myself pretty good but after watching the controls indicator i have learned how my hardware is interacting with the sim/module and now get on fine 95% of the time. The other 5% is just me being silly lol

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A lot of people purport to be able to fly the Apache with ease.
Wags even said in 2021 on this forum that "The apache should be the easiest module to fly, by far" or words that effect.
I try to fly this thing and it tries to kill me.
I can have a decent mission, fly up kill some targets, but im always fighting the controls, always.  Mainly rudder as i increase and decrease collective.  
Landing is hit and miss, I can come in to a rolling landing on the runway.  Landing on a fixed spot is pretty impossible for me.
The last mission I flew the apache started doing barrel rolls on the way home to base, I have no idea why it was doing this, one min its nice and trimmed out, the next, barrel rolls!!!
I can fly the KA50 so im not new to helos, but this is kicking my ass.
Ive watched a lot of videos on how to fly, VOLK is especially useful with his videos and commentary on various platforms, but I just cant seem to transpose what people are doing on to my own expericne.
Im using twist stick and I have set my curves to 15 with 90% ysat.
Any help or advice would be appreciate. If someone has time for a quick mentor session id appreciate that too.
I feel you dude.
The Apache is quite a handful in terms of controlling her. I just enjoy other aspect of the aircraft beside landing for now. Landing on a spot is big challenge for me. Not so with the KA-50.
My major gripe is having to put all the way point, cm, and target point and skid out of control to crash. I have to start all over again.

It makes me wonder if the SCAS system still need work.

Auto rudder is listed as one of the features to come later in early access. I do not have any idea what this feature does but the name sound like something to help one with rudder control especially at those times when you increase collective.

Right now anything to help fly this module on a more stable manner would be great.

Windows 10 Pro 64bit|Ryzen 5600 @3.8Ghz|EVGA RTX 3070 XC3 Ultra|Corair vengence 32G DDR4 @3200mhz|MSI B550|Thrustmaster Flightstick| Virpil CM3 Throttle| Thrustmaster TFRP Rudder Pedal /Samsung Odyssey Plus Headset

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just to be sure: In the DCS options "gameplay" menu, you did not tick the "Game Flight Mode" tickbox, did you?

66257

(ignore the red marking. Just a menu screenshot I found on internet. Game Flight Mode is all the way in the top left)

 

Game Flight Mode is (or at least was) bugged and shouldn't be used for the Apache at the moment.

 

 

Additionally, as others said, the Ka50 flies really different from all other helo modules. I think at the time Wags forgot about it, as the Ka50 is by far the most easy to fly (not talking about avionics here, but just the flight characteristics). 

 

Can't really say I find the Apache much more easy to fly then the other tail rotor helo's we have, but then again, I find 'em all super easy to fly 😉. Although the Hind is definitely the least forgiving of em all. That said, I did put a lot of hours into all of them. So I think, unsatisfying as it might sound, the only advice that can be given here is: "practice, practice, practice"

In the end it's just so rewarding, being able to land at any spot you want. All the struggles will pay off once you master her. Good luck mate :thumbup:

 

  • Like 1

System specs:

 

i7-8700K @stock speed - GTX 1080TI @ stock speed - AsRock Extreme4 Z370 - 32GB DDR4 @3GHz- 500GB SSD - 2TB nvme - 650W PSU

HP Reverb G1 v2 - Saitek Pro pedals - TM Warthog HOTAS - TM F/A-18 Grip - TM Cougar HOTAS (NN-Dan mod) & (throttle standalone mod) - VIRPIL VPC Rotor TCS Plus with ALPHA-L grip - Pointctrl & aux banks <-- must have for VR users!! - Andre's SimShaker Jetpad - Fully adjustable DIY playseat - VA+VAICOM

 

~ That nuke might not have been the best of ideas, Sir... the enemy is furious ~ GUMMBAH

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, sirrah said:

Just to be sure: In the DCS options "gameplay" menu, you did not tick the "Game Flight Mode" tickbox, did you?

66257

(ignore the red marking. Just a menu screenshot I found on internet. Game Flight Mode is all the way in the top left)

 

Game Flight Mode is (or at least was) bugged and shouldn't be used for the Apache at the moment.

 

 

Additionally, as others said, the Ka50 flies really different from all other helo modules. I think at the time Wags forgot about it, as the Ka50 is by far the most easy to fly (not talking about avionics here, but just the flight characteristics). 

 

Can't really say I find the Apache much more easy to fly then the other tail rotor helo's we have, but then again, I find 'em all super easy to fly 😉. Although the Hind is definitely the least forgiving of em all. That said, I did put a lot of hours into all of them. So I think, unsatisfying as it might sound, the only advice that can be given here is: "practice, practice, practice"

In the end it's just so rewarding, being able to land at any spot you want. All the struggles will pay off once you master her. Good luck mate :thumbup:

 

Funny you say this about the hind, I can fly the hind ok, I can transition to a hover and land the thing, and I picked that module up THIS MORNING.

I must have some setting wrong on the Apache or doing something terribly wrong.. If I can fly the Hind and land it in 2-3 hours of play then something is up.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Chad Vader said:

A lot of people purport to be able to fly the Apache with ease.

Wags even said in 2021 on this forum that "The apache should be the easiest module to fly, by far" or words that effect.

I try to fly this thing and it tries to kill me.

I can have a decent mission, fly up kill some targets, but im always fighting the controls, always.  Mainly rudder as i increase and decrease collective.  

Landing is hit and miss, I can come in to a rolling landing on the runway.  Landing on a fixed spot is pretty impossible for me.

The last mission I flew the apache started doing barrel rolls on the way home to base, I have no idea why it was doing this, one min its nice and trimmed out, the next, barrel rolls!!!

I can fly the KA50 so im not new to helos, but this is kicking my ass.

Ive watched a lot of videos on how to fly, VOLK is especially useful with his videos and commentary on various platforms, but I just cant seem to transpose what people are doing on to my own expericne.

Im using twist stick and I have set my curves to 15 with 90% ysat.

Any help or advice would be appreciate. If someone has time for a quick mentor session id appreciate that too.

mate i'm EXACTLY same - its a constant fight to fly, transition to hover, land - everything - whilst it may be super realistic its just not fun imo

 

again using hotas with twist stick for rudder - maybe this is the issue but i'm reluctant to fork out more for pedals when already spent on modules, maps & hotas


Edited by Garfs74
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think most of us who don't fly helos a lot have fought learning to fly this module. The Eureka! moment for me was setting the cyclic curves to 35, zero dead zone, and 90% saturation on the roll. I have one of the first available Warthogs that is still pretty tight, except throttles that are slightly spiky, and a 20+ year old set of CH pedals. They're spiky too but a curve of 35 and zero dead zone made a huge difference. The zero dead zone seemed crazy but works perfectly with the big curve. The other issue is the KA-50 module style kludge (not that I have a better idea how to make trim on our HOTASs work like a helo control system) added to the trim system that takes a long time to sort out and still goes stupid. The piece of advice that helped me with most was to not use the trim excessively. With proper curves and not trying to trim it out until I've accelerated past 40+ (usually later for me) has made a huge difference. Almost as important is to realize I have to do things slowly and deliberately. Decelerating to a hover is particularly prone to bad things when I rush. I do trim more often when slowing too. Finally, practice, practice, practice, and when you think you've got it licked practice more. Blowing stuff up comes well after you can fly the thing. Trying to run marathons before being able to sit up has never worked.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Chad Vader said:

I keep telling myself this but I must be doing something wrong.  barrel rolls man...

Have you done any curve adjustments? EVERYTHING you complained about is a flight characteristic and a results of improper flight inputs for the real aircraft. 

Inshort, read more, watch more real pilot tutorials and some that arn't real pilots, learn to hover and PRACTICE. It will come togeather, I'm living proof as I had everyone of your complaints when I firsted started flying the Apache and today I made my first landing on a Helo pad on a Super Container Ship, nerve racking! It wasn't pretty either 🙂 

Good luck!


Edited by pii
Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, pii said:

Have you done any curve adjustments? EVERYTHING you complained about is a flight characteristic and a results of improper flight inputs for the real aircraft. 

Inshort, read more, watch more real pilot tutorials and some that arn't real pilots, learn to hover and PRACTICE. It will come togeather, I'm living proof as I had everyone of your complaints when I firsted started flying the Apache and today I made my first landing on a Helo pad on a Super Container Ship, nerve racking! It wasn't pretty either 🙂 

Good luck!

 

Hey bud.  Im much like the poster above, ive watched a lot of VOLKs vids on curves etc and copied his settings.  It did make a bit of a difference.  Ive got curves 35, 90% y sat and 5 deadzone as there is a little shake on my axis.  WHat steps did you take to get better?  ive watched a <profanity> ton of videos man its doing my nut.  I just picked up the hind (trial) this morning as a test and I can fly that thing, transition and land on a helipad.  Ive had it for 3 hours.  What are your settings?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Garfs74 said:

mate i'm EXACTLY same - its a constant fight to fly, transition to hover, land - everything - whilst it may be super realistic its just not fun imo

Not really realistic at the moment.  That is to say there is more work to the SCAS to be done.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Chad Vader said:

Hey bud.  Im much like the poster above, ive watched a lot of VOLKs vids on curves etc and copied his settings.  It did make a bit of a difference.  Ive got curves 35, 90% y sat and 5 deadzone as there is a little shake on my axis.  WHat steps did you take to get better?  ive watched a <profanity> ton of videos man its doing my nut.  I just picked up the hind (trial) this morning as a test and I can fly that thing, transition and land on a helipad.  Ive had it for 3 hours.  What are your settings?

The hind will <profanity> you in the asss just when you think you have it all under control. These custom curves worked the best for me.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Chad Vader said:

Hey bud.  Im much like the poster above, ive watched a lot of VOLKs vids on curves etc and copied his settings.  It did make a bit of a difference.  Ive got curves 35, 90% y sat and 5 deadzone as there is a little shake on my axis.  WHat steps did you take to get better?  ive watched a <profanity> ton of videos man its doing my nut.  I just picked up the hind (trial) this morning as a test and I can fly that thing, transition and land on a helipad.  Ive had it for 3 hours.  What are your settings?

My settings will not be your settings but I have 15 for all the joystick axis and a whopping 40 curve/80 sat on my pedals and it wasn't until I set that big 40 on the peddles that I could even beging to hover.. the rest was just practice practce but I'm no Eagle7 or Cosmo but I'm getting better at going up and down and still be living. 🙂   I'm under the impression it's my pedals that are casuing me control problems as they seem very senitvie even with that big curve.


Edited by pii
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Make sure you don’t have game mode checked in the options.

If you’re flying straight, trimmed, >100kns and push forward on the cyclic to nose down, the aircraft will enter an uncommanded roll to the left that if not anticipated could result in a left barrel roll. This is a bug it has been reported and I’m sure they’re working on it.

All helos require pedal input when adjusting collective. The difference may be that you may have trimmed your pedal so far in one direction and not realize it that when an adjustment is needed you can’t keep up with the corrective actions. Also in general everything needs to be slow and deliberate. This is a heavy helicopter. Remove collective smoothly and slowly, add it in smoothly and slowly. Be gentle on the cyclic.

 

 

Banner EDForum2020.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I realize you have already stated that pedals won't fit under your desk, but I am of the camp that having a real set of pedals goes a long way to making this a more enjoyable experience.

You are getting a lot of advice from a lot of people, but you should probably only pay attention to advice coming from other pilots using a twist stick, as I would imagine it is a completely different ballgame.

On a side note, I would love to see some video taken from over the shoulder of someone doing high-performance maneuvers with a twist-stick to better understand what is involved.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that for a pilot learning helicopters trim can almost be a detriment. Once you get your curves set up the best thing to do is not use any trim and just feel how the much pressure you are using to get the helicopter to move forward then get it to slow and hover, do all of this down in ground effect at first and just get the hang of that. For me trim is for once you are in forward flight for a long period of time. Trying to trim as you are hovering can lead to trouble it's easy to over trim in roll especially. For landing about a mile out I will release all trim to center and land with no trim at all, the control is much more precise this technique works with all of the helicopters. I was having issues with the Apache especially in low speed pitch as it kept moving as I worked the collective but I went back to the basics of the Huey where I released all trim as I was approach to land and the Apache now feels about the same as the Huey, making sure to look out at the horizon for fine pitch control.

Just my observations.

  • Like 2

Sager Laptop, i7-6700k 4.00GHz, 16GB RAM, GTX 980M, 1920x1080, TIR 5, Windows 10

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team

Some food for thought: the force trim button also interacts with the logic of the Flight Management Computer and the hold modes. It's not just for pilot comfort, it's integral to how the aircraft is operated.

As the SCAS system is fleshed out and expanded with additional functionality, not understanding how force trim works in a helicopter will likely hinder your understanding of how and why the AH-64 performs as it does.

  • Like 3

Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.
DCS Rotor-Head

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, monkie said:

I think that for a pilot learning helicopters trim can almost be a detriment.

I had typed up a response to the OP with something to this effect (not taking into consideration Raptor9's comments just now) but then remembered the OP is using a twist stick. 

Is not using trim even a viable option?  I would think holding the stick twisted at the correct angle while performing maneuvers would be a recipe for disaster.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

not sure how a twist grip would work, I've used both pedals and a gamepad for years and I don't use the in game trim for the pedals so I'm constantly holding pressure during hovers and slower flight.

I would think a twist grip is a no go for helicopters, I remember trying one back in the early 2000's with FS's first helicopters and I gave up pretty fast on that idea.

Even with all of the stabilization that the real Apache might have to me the fun of it is having to constantly control with precise coordination to move form point to point, hover, fire, mask, un-mask etc, otherwise I would just sit in the CPG seat and relax and play button pusher while pilot has all the fun. 

  • Like 1

Sager Laptop, i7-6700k 4.00GHz, 16GB RAM, GTX 980M, 1920x1080, TIR 5, Windows 10

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...