I just cant get the hang of this module (pilot)

[monkie]

Yes in the end there is only one way to get there and that is to practice and not get frustrated and give up. I thought I'd never manage the Huey when it first came out, but now I fly it without a thought and that only came with a lot of trial and error and a good bit of frustration at first.

[Chad Vader]

Thanks all, following all the advice here and changing curves etc, im improving slowly

Edited April 26, 2022 by Chad Vader

[dburne]

I am flying the Apache now ok after about 40 hours put into it. Only issue I have left concerning flying it is landing on a spot. That one I still struggle with. 

[pii]

1 hour ago, S. Low said:

Pretty sure Wags uses a twist stick. Did OP try watching Wags' demonstration videos on Youtube? You'll get there, OP. It'll "click" in your brain one of these days. 

Just happened to watch a Wags video where he said you should use pedals or like he does, use a "good Hat switch."

I used to use a twist grip with EECH and thought it worked pretty good but that was a Looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time ago.

[pii]

5 minutes ago, dburne said:

I am flying the Apache now ok after about 40 hours put into it. Only issue I have left concerning flying it is landing on a spot. That one I still struggle with. 

Sounds like where I"m at. I'm still practicing landings and take off hovers. I was able to, for the first , land on a helo pad on a container ship. NERVE RACKING! It also was not pretty , I may have dented the front bumper.

[scommander2]

@Chad Vaderthanks for posting and thank people's encouragement, I am also learning how to fly apache without 9 crashes of 10 attempts  

[Mad Dog 762]

I think a lot of us are in the same boat.  I can fly fine.  I can mostly take off ok but once in a while I have a hiccup.  I am still doing rolling landings as well, and I fight with gaining altitude as I come in to land.  But I only have about 12 hours in it so far, and things are slowly getting better, so I think it will come in time.  I understand the frustration, I used to fly the crap out of the Ka-50 and could make it do anything I wanted so this has been tough.  And as others have said, the module has a lot of improvement coming in time.  Hopefully.  

The thing that really screws with my head sometimes is when I use the trim but then forget to recenter the control, and end up with the "dead" control and a chopper that won't respond to input.  Grrrr.  

[Razor18]

I'm probably not the first one stating this, but I guess unless you have a specific (budget or health) reason to stick with a twist grip, a pedal is definitely a MUST for any helicopter in DCS. It is very difficult to properly control a joystick in "3D", and very tiresome for your wrist, which will degrade your yaw and overall control precision after some time.

The Apache is a pretty squirelly beast, so it is a big leap from a Ka-50, if one did not start learning to fly helicopter on a Huey, or maybe on a Mi-17 (conventional tail rotor meant). And if someone can afford a lot of modules, good for him, but he is making a disservice for himself, if instead of buying a pedal after buying a helkicopter module, one invests in more helicopter moduls (with tail rotor), and then complaining about how demanding is that new modul with a twist grip. Pedal price range of course vary, but the cheapest pedal (Saitek?) costs about the price of 2 helo moduls, but without pedal he will not be able to properly fly even the one he alreaday has, let alon the the new ones...

Just my 2 cents, and no pun intended on anyone.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Razor18

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

For me I think the thing that could sometimes lead to problems and sudden rolls is the rudder vs trim reset. I use a Warthog throttle 4-way hat (L/R) for rudder. Works fine mostly. But the rudder STAYS where I last moved it even after the hat re-centers. So in an 'emergency' when I need the rudder centered, I forget that the trim reset WILL NOT recenter it unless I do a force trim first (if there was no prior trimming). This is unlike the cyclic which naturally goes back to stick center (before trimming).

PS: Yes I know pedals are good to have for helos with tail rotors. I'll wait and see if future adjustments to the FM and auto hover will make things a little better.     

[Chad Vader]

4 hours ago, Razor18 said:

I'm probably not the first one stating this, but I guess unless you have a specific (budget or health) reason to stick with a twist grip, a pedal is definitely a MUST for any helicopter in DCS. It is very difficult to properly control a joystick in "3D", and very tiresome for your wrist, which will degrade your yaw and overall control precision after some time.

The Apache is a pretty squirelly beast, so it is a big leap from a Ka-50, if one did not start learning to fly helicopter on a Huey, or maybe on a Mi-17 (conventional tail rotor meant). And if someone can afford a lot of modules, good for him, but he is making a disservice for himself, if instead of buying a pedal after buying a helkicopter module, one invests in more helicopter moduls (with tail rotor), and then complaining about how demanding is that new modul with a twist grip. Pedal price range of course vary, but the cheapest pedal (Saitek?) costs about the price of 2 helo moduls, but without pedal he will not be able to properly fly even the one he alreaday has, let alon the the new ones...

Just my 2 cents, and no pun intended on anyone.

 

Hey I wasnt complaining just asking for advice.  There is a difference.  Lets keep things positive.

[Razor18]

Was just a general comment, not meant to you, and as said, no pun was intended. Sorry, if it seemed so.

Edited April 27, 2022 by Razor18

[Supmua]

The best learning experience for me is to practice hovering around the airport runway.  Start hot on the runway and just hover around the perimeter at 10ft or less, going forward/backward/sideway etc.  IHADSS mode with horizontal line also helps a lot with control as it also tells you what the aircraft is currently doing relative to the horizon so you can make small corrections and sometimes might need a push in stead of a nudge in order to stop the aircraft from sliding away.

For easier hovering my typical trim is to have the aircraft pointing downward slightly, this way I only have to worry about holding the stick aft for slowing down/hovering and letting go for forward movement.

[S. Low]

13 hours ago, dburne said:

I am flying the Apache now ok after about 40 hours put into it. Only issue I have left concerning flying it is landing on a spot. That one I still struggle with. 

It’s squirrelly in ground effect, but remember you can put the flight path marker on a spot on the ground to give you a good idea where you’ll land based on current variables. Also try flipping on your PNVS as you get close to landing so you can “see through” the aircraft to help you land. And finally, remember that the Apache landing gear are very durable so you don’t have to be as gentle as other helos

[Floyd1212]

And don't forget to release the parking brake before landing!

I have a tendency to lift off without checking it (and it if often left engaged), then when I am about 5 feet from landing I remember it and have to look down to check it, and disengage it with my mouse.  I should probably bind a key to it so I can do it without needing the mouse.

If only there was a checklist I could keep handy to make sure I don't forget it during startup...

[doomie]

> If only there was a checklist I could keep handy to make sure I don't forget it during startup...

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3321322/

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3321891/

Chose one to your liking. Add to kneeboard, and start her up!

[pii]

On 4/27/2022 at 9:05 AM, S. Low said:

It’s squirrelly in ground effect, but remember you can put the flight path marker on a spot on the ground to give you a good idea where you’ll land based on current variables. Also try flipping on your PNVS as you get close to landing so you can “see through” the aircraft to help you land. And finally, remember that the Apache landing gear are very durable so you don’t have to be as gentle as other helos

I used to put the Flt path marker on where I wanted to land but after many hours of practice found it much eaiser to just fly at the spot I wanted to land and the flt-path marker will converge to where you are headed once you are about to land, a lot of landing videos don't even use the Mode with a flight path marker . Haven't tried the PNVS yet but full screen ALT-F1 veiw works pretty good.  

Edited April 28, 2022 by pii

[Flamin_Squirrel]

2 hours ago, ApacheLongbow said:

...I really struggle with decelerations: it kills me everytime!

 

 

How so, VRS? If so, make shall approaches, and approach INTO THE WIND! It makes things so much easier. I think many sim pilots forget about/don't realise the importance of this, but it really does help.

[comcat]

My experience ( real world helo pilot):

I have a X-56 Throttle and stick combo. do not use the twist grip for pedals! Do not use the trim for pedals. In setting/special ah64/ set pedal trim to pedals without trim and FFB. my stick with soft spring , the trim is instant.

On my throttle I have rotary knobs, one of them is the rudder axis - and yes constant adjustment is required, like IRL, but trimming is much easier.

Curves: cyclic, no curves, saturation Y at 75. rudder (on rot knob) NO curve. Collective, set to slider saturation Y 80.

Trim: is so important, i have mine set to pinky switch and you trim, trim, trim ,trim, but everytime you trim you have to neutralise the stick ( i have a soft spring in it)

It's practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice, practice,

Flying: fly it like a schoolbus, like a tank. the rest will follow. take your time, slow down early, flat approaches, not vertical above your spot. check your trim indicator frequently!! be ahead of your aircraft, if you want OGE ( out of ground effect hover) you need to bring in your power early, you need between 80 and 95% tq depending on wind and weight. weight: dont bring fuel you dont need: i always go with 70% max.

slow down, trim, trim the rudder always.

the SCAS ( little green plus on you controls indicator)is what is messing with you if you fly out of pedal trim. your pedals need adjustment all the time for speed, TQ and wind.

again slow down, flat departure, flat approaches...fly it like a truck.

on the high speed cyclic pushover issue: its a low G maneuver, that causes the disc to become unloaded>no torque>the tailrotor is pushing it sideways and causing a roll.

 

feel free to ask with specific problems, we can get you mastering this thing.

 

[Razor18]

@ApacheLongbow Anticipate to pull in a bit more collective as your speed decreases through 40 kts, then again through aroud 20 kts, at least in my rough experience...

Edited April 27, 2022 by Razor18

[rayrayblues]

I have to agree that the twist stick has to go. You must put your rudder axis on a separate device.

I used one for years with War Thunder and Heliborne and never noticed that it wasn't a problem because those are arcade games.

But when I went to DCS, I always ended up accidently adding rudder when using the pitch and roll,

there's too many axis's on one stick.

I am handicapped and can't use my feet. I mapped the yaw to the rocker axis on the back side of my throttle. 

Maybe this would be a better option for you. instead of pedals. You wouldn't have to worry about space under your desk or wheels on your chair.

Having the rudder separate from the stick was a real gamechanger for me.  

Edited April 27, 2022 by rayrayblues
typo

[Havner]

To all of you struggling. I've also been struggling to a point of frustration where I couldn't even hold the yaw in place while hovering without getting into oscillations. She's definitely the most difficult one of all the helis we have, but several hours of practice and definitely tameable. This is what I can do with her now.

EDIT: LOL, I tried watching it myself and I crash on the replay while I did not when recording. Are replays still problematic in DCS?

EDIT2: track removed, after last patch it's completely broken. Anyway, what I wanted to say is: don't give up. I also thought I won't be able to tame her. At some point it clicked and both slow precise flying/landing and fast with rapid accelerations and decelerations became possible. You just really have to anticipate her much more than any other heli out there. So more experience required, but still possible.

 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Havner

[Floyd1212]

Nice flying. 

Looked like you were having fun, until that hanger got a little to close...

Yes, replays can take on a mind of their own and you will crash when you didn't really in your flight.

[Havner]

24 minutes ago, Floyd1212 said:

Nice flying. 

Looked like you were having fun, until that hanger got a little to close...

Thanks. AFAIR I was actually flying over the concrete there, so the misalignment got pretty big. I remember I had issues with replays long time ago. Seems they are still there

[rayrayblues]

@Havner

I find that the best way to handle replays is don't watch them right away.

Save them FIRST then close the game. Make a copy of it then restart the game before watching.

Don't accelerate the time. Set it on F2 external view and don't change it.

You can adjust the viewing angle, but don't zoom to much or use F3.

Don't stop it early. Let it play out then save it again. If it messes up, try the backup copy.

GL&HF       

Edited April 28, 2022 by rayrayblues
additional info

[StrongHarm]

I stumbled upon a training tool that helped me acclimate quickly.  Slow the sim down while hovering and analyze the reactions to input at a rate that's more forgiving and observable.  Sounds crazy but it works.  Details are in this quote from another post.  

On 4/12/2022 at 10:44 PM, StrongHarm said:

I found a great training method for analyzing precision hover and transitions that I thought I'd share, and it's very simple; slow DCS down to half speed.  You can do it with keys ALT+Z.  Try taking off and hovering like this.  If you slow down, you'll really be able to feel what she needs, and finding that sweet spot will really pay off for both of you.

Observations of a TLDR nature:

My opinion on why this is so effective for me parallels playing my guitar.  I've been at it for more than 30yrs and I find that sometimes I still just have to slow down when I'm playing a piece to better understand the composer's nuances.  Flying a helo is really more akin to drumming though.  You have several parts of your body doing very different things, but doing those unique movements in time and with concern to every other body part... and sometimes in direct opposition to one another.  While overing with the sim at half speed, I really came to understand the effect of increased collective on both forward motion and port side torque... and the degree and timing of that effect.  When I sped up again my muscle memory was intact and my hover felt better, even though I was already performing hovers pretty well.  This exercise, along with Casmo's Hover Recovery exercise, and Eagle7's Tire Exercises will be part of my weekly TTP workout for a long time to come.

I'm in love with this Apache!  Thank you again ED!