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How to dogfight against the 15 Bis?


Stratos

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I know I'm a lousy pilot, but when dogfighting the MiG-15Bis with AIM-9B and guns, I feel always superated by some kind of UFO, it turns better than me as I expected, but that thing accelerates faster and can keep with me in the vertical, only thing I feel it works is to gain some separation and try to kill them head on, so knowing is entirely my fault, how do you guys dogfight against the 15 Bis?

Thanks!

I don't understand anything in russian except Davai Davai!

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It's totally different Flight Model. But in these case as MiG-15 user  ... AI (IMO) is a lot easier to dogfight as a real player. It's loosing energy a lot faster. In editor I can easily dogfight alone 8xF86F on Ace lvl. Human players are totally different, and dogfight can be actually very frustrating, since Sabre is in most cases faster.

F5E (AI or not) is an easy prey for experienced MiG-15bis pilot. (IMO)
You accelerate bit better, you are a lot faster, but you climb similar, turn worse except of roll - so you may try scissors, but it's risky anyway.


Edited by 303_Kermit
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3 hours ago, Stratos said:

I know I'm a lousy pilot, but when dogfighting the MiG-15Bis with AIM-9B and guns, I feel always superated by some kind of UFO, it turns better than me as I expected, but that thing accelerates faster and can keep with me in the vertical, only thing I feel it works is to gain some separation and try to kill them head on, so knowing is entirely my fault, how do you guys dogfight against the 15 Bis?

Thanks!

Basic BFM and understanding the differences in the aircraft.

The Mig-15 is an angles fighter in this matchup so you don't want to make it an angles fight.

The Mig-15 should never be in a position to shoot you. If he is, you screwed something up.

 

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7 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

"The Mig-15 should never be in a position to shoot you. If he is, you screwed something up."

 

There is a truth in these sentence... It was always harder to hit F5E when he didn't saw me... I could never catch up. Only after he saw me I could get my guns on him 😄


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Fly in pair with your wingman. Fast in straight lines. MiG15 will be defenseless... He has just 45 min of fuel, so he quickly start to think about coming back... Then he's yours. AiM-9B is allways faster...

...I never exceed 65min of flight time no matter what drop-tank I took...


Edited by 303_Kermit
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MiG 15 burns it's internal tank in 45 min. no matter if you're iddle on ground , cruising middle- low alt, or full throttle on 12 000m. It's 45 min. 2x400 L tank shall give you more time, but it's usabble only in non combat flight. In combat , when you're gaining alt you burn up aux tanks in no time during climb. If you stick to low alt, you may enjoy external for longer, but in a combat you burn fuel much faster. In the end without external it's ~ 45min. and ~ 60 min. with 2x400L external. (In combat mission)

 


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On 4/27/2022 at 9:13 AM, Stratos said:

I understand all that, but how do you counter against it?

Without knowing where you are in the process of learning Basic Fighter Maneuvers, it is extremely hard to answer that with any sort of specificity.

Out in the real world, you learn aerobatics, which are maneuvers without reference to another aircraft while concurrently learning formation flying. While formation flying is a handy skill for getting groups of aircraft safely in the same airspace, more importantly it is the learning laboratory for BFM. If you can't join in formation on a maneuvering aircraft that WANTS you in formation with him, you will be hopeless against one who doesn't. After formation flying, comes 1 v 1 similar aircraft BFM and only after that does 1 v 1 dissimilar come into the program.

Unfortunately in our virtual world, most pilots generally skip the first three stages and try to learn the final 1 v 1 dissimilar stage with no basis in the required fundamentals.

Your questions indicate you are in this group. Sorry to be so blunt but the question of how the F-5 should fight the Mig-15 has an obvious answer if you have a solid BFM foundation.

That doesn't mean the F-5 can easily beat the Mig-15.

A well flown Mig-15 is hard to kill in an F-5 but it also isn't much of a threat to an F-5 that is competently flown.

When I encounter Mig-15's in PvP, I generally ignore them, especially 1 v 1.

The extended period required to wear one down and kill him means a long time exposed to another bandit entering the fight.

If I have a wingman, which I usually do, we will fly a Loose Deuce style of engagement to kill the Mig-15 by making him predictable for the free fighter to kill with a missile shot. The worst thing you can do in a 2 v 1 against a Mig-15 is make him nervous enough to wiggle. Give him just enough so that he thinks he is winning while your wingman lines him up for an easy missile shot.


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3 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

Without knowing where you are in the process of learning Basic Fighter Maneuvers, it is extremely hard to answer that with any sort of specificity.

Out in the real world, you learn aerobatics, which are maneuvers without reference to another aircraft while concurrently learning formation flying. While formation flying is a handy skill for getting groups of aircraft safely in the same airspace, more importantly it is the learning laboratory for BFM. If you can't join in formation on a maneuvering aircraft that WANTS you in formation with him, you will be hopeless against one who doesn't. After formation flying, comes 1 v 1 similar aircraft BFM and only after that does 1 v 1 dissimilar come into the program.

Unfortunately in our virtual world, most pilots generally skip the first three stages and try to learn the final 1 v 1 dissimilar stage with no basis in the required fundamentals.

Your questions indicate you are in this group. Sorry to be so blunt but how the question of how the F-5 should fight the Mig-15 has an obvious answer if you have a solid BFM foundation.

That doesn't mean the F-5 can easily beat the Mig-15.

A well flown Mig-15 is hard to kill in an F-5 but it also isn't much of a threat to an F-5 that is competently flown.

When I encounter Mig-15's in PvP, I generally ignore them, especially 1 v 1.

The extended period required to wear one down and kill him means a long time exposed to another bandit entering the fight.

If I have a wingman, which I usually do, we will fly a Loose Deuce style of engagement to kill the Mig-15 by making him predictable for the free fighter to kill with a missile shot. The worst thing you can do in a 2 v 1 against a Mig-15 is make him nervous enough to wiggle. Give him just enough so that he thinks he is winning while your wingman lines him up for an easy missile shot.

... Basicly there are 2 types of teachers
1-st one "Look how easy it is"
2-nd one "Look how brilliant I am"

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  • 1 month later...

Not really. This is another myth people likely get from Top Gun. In an engagement where you're matched by the numbers, coordinating with wingmen isn't gonna happen because everyone is gonna get into their own merges and the fights will soon separate. Whoever gets a kill first can go help someone else. Indeed, one would ideally get a kill as quickly as possible as to make the fight less even (or more even, if there's more bandits than friendlies). Coordinating with a wingman is a useful skill when you happen upon a situation where you have a numerical advantage, and a good way for inferior, but more numerous fighters to get a leg up against better performing aircraft. It can help neutralize the fight if you're bounced, but after that, you'll still have to pick a bandit and stick with him.

The US was able to employ some very clever multi-ship tactics, but they had numerical superiority everywhere they used them. This would not have held in a WWIII scenario, where WP forces would have outnumbered them quite severely. 1:1 merge was the best case scenario. They were quite aware of that, which is why one on one dogfighting was taught. And no, running away from numerically superior opponent, while occasionally wise, would not be very productive in the long run, particularly since US didn't have much in terms of mobile SAM cover.

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21 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Not really. This is another myth people likely get from Top Gun. In an engagement where you're matched by the numbers, coordinating with wingmen isn't gonna happen because everyone is gonna get into their own merges and the fights will soon separate. Whoever gets a kill first can go help someone else. Indeed, one would ideally get a kill as quickly as possible as to make the fight less even (or more even, if there's more bandits than friendlies). Coordinating with a wingman is a useful skill when you happen upon a situation where you have a numerical advantage, and a good way for inferior, but more numerous fighters to get a leg up against better performing aircraft. It can help neutralize the fight if you're bounced, but after that, you'll still have to pick a bandit and stick with him.

The US was able to employ some very clever multi-ship tactics, but they had numerical superiority everywhere they used them. This would not have held in a WWIII scenario, where WP forces would have outnumbered them quite severely. 1:1 merge was the best case scenario. They were quite aware of that, which is why one on one dogfighting was taught. And no, running away from numerically superior opponent, while occasionally wise, would not be very productive in the long run, particularly since US didn't have much in terms of mobile SAM cover.

I strongly disagree. You can play it out in board games or in pc flight sims. In 2 vs 4 or worse situations, the outnumbered aircraft can and should maintain mutual support. While inevitably some pairs will get separated in a massive fight, there generally have not been any massive fights since Korea. But in both WW2 and Korea, flight integrity was supposed to be maintained as much as possible. The most notable historical example is F4F Wildcats adopting the Thach weave tactics. The F4F had very little chance of winning in 1 vs 1 fights against A6Ms with experienced pilots. But using mutual support tactics, they not only survived but got better than 1:1 kill ratios against an aircraft that whose flight performance was superior in almost every way except in a high speed dive.

F-86 Sabres could and did get separated, but if you read the historical accounts, you will find that they were still clearing each others tails even in massive fights where they were outnumbered by MiG-15s. The F-86s and MiG-15s that got shot down were usually the ones that allowed themselves to get separated. Aces are made by getting easy kills against lone, unaware targets, not groups of aircraft using mutual support tactics.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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In such a situation, you still mostly fly your own fight while checking your buddy's six. With WWII tactics, flight integrity was indeed a priority, but this was mostly due to how pilots were trained. In later eras, with pilot training being more elaborate, those "welded wing" formations fell out of favor, with wingmates flying further away and maneuvering independently, which was more effective. Indeed, the fluid four failed miserably in Vietnam, having been replaced by combat spread that gives each fighter a lot of independent turning room, yet still allows mutual support in terms of sharing SA and checking each others' six. Remember, you can't support your buddy if you're forced defensive by another bandit. 

In a huge furball it's actually easier to support someone, since in such big, close-in fights everyone loses track of who's turning with who and it's easy to switch targets when an opportunity presents itself. This goes both ways, though, a furball is not where you want to be. It's better to extend out of there, get some altitude and bounce the dogfighters at your leisure. With modern tactics, a proper combat spread allows you to get a positional advantage, or at least neutralize the merge, but switching targets is difficult due to how wide the formation is (of course, if the attackers only see one ship due to combat spread being so wide, the free fighter is then free to burn their tails).

As for dogfighting the MiG-15, we might get an update tomorrow that introduces new dogfighting AI. Or not. In the latter case, get fast, go vertical and wait for the MiG to run out of energy. That's what I did in the MiG-19, which has the same advantages as the F-5. He'll go vertical because that's what DCS AI does, and despite his magic engine, he should run out of speed before you do. When it does, it'll either level out and start a slow climb (chase and kill him then, you climb better than he does) or go down, in which case you should be able to turn with it and kill it. In the former case, it'll hopefully get smarter, but less magical, and in this case, vertical is still a good idea, since a MiG-15 has no afterburner and thus doesn't climb well.

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On 6/21/2022 at 12:20 PM, Dragon1-1 said:

Not really. This is another myth people likely get from Top Gun. In an engagement where you're matched by the numbers, coordinating with wingmen isn't gonna happen because everyone is gonna get into their own merges and the fights will soon separate. Whoever gets a kill first can go help someone else. Indeed, one would ideally get a kill as quickly as possible as to make the fight less even (or more even, if there's more bandits than friendlies). Coordinating with a wingman is a useful skill when you happen upon a situation where you have a numerical advantage, and a good way for inferior, but more numerous fighters to get a leg up against better performing aircraft. It can help neutralize the fight if you're bounced, but after that, you'll still have to pick a bandit and stick with him.

The US was able to employ some very clever multi-ship tactics, but they had numerical superiority everywhere they used them. This would not have held in a WWIII scenario, where WP forces would have outnumbered them quite severely. 1:1 merge was the best case scenario. They were quite aware of that, which is why one on one dogfighting was taught. And no, running away from numerically superior opponent, while occasionally wise, would not be very productive in the long run, particularly since US didn't have much in terms of mobile SAM cover.

Multi-ship tactics against equal or superior numbers is exactly where they shine the most. Pre-merge formation and maneuvers are designed to divide and conquer and are very effective against superior numbers flying without coordination.

Thinking of a multi-ship merge as a bunch of 1 v 1's makes you easy to kill.

Most of the time in a multi bandit merge, the bandit you merge with is NOT the one you are engaged with.

An example is a 2 v 2 bracket. If you and your wingman have managed to get to the outside at the merge, both bandits will be giving their sixes to one or both of you. Both bandits usually die in the first 180 degrees of turn.

 

 

 

 

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  • 2 months later...
On 6/21/2022 at 7:20 PM, Dragon1-1 said:

Not really. This is another myth people likely get from Top Gun. In an engagement where you're matched by the numbers, coordinating with wingmen isn't gonna happen because everyone is gonna get into their own merges and the fights will soon separate. Whoever gets a kill first can go help someone else. Indeed, one would ideally get a kill as quickly as possible as to make the fight less even (or more even, if there's more bandits than friendlies). Coordinating with a wingman is a useful skill when you happen upon a situation where you have a numerical advantage, and a good way for inferior, but more numerous fighters to get a leg up against better performing aircraft. It can help neutralize the fight if you're bounced, but after that, you'll still have to pick a bandit and stick with him.

The US was able to employ some very clever multi-ship tactics, but they had numerical superiority everywhere they used them. This would not have held in a WWIII scenario, where WP forces would have outnumbered them quite severely. 1:1 merge was the best case scenario. They were quite aware of that, which is why one on one dogfighting was taught. And no, running away from numerically superior opponent, while occasionally wise, would not be very productive in the long run, particularly since US didn't have much in terms of mobile SAM cover.

There's only one way to prove you wrong. Do you fly Enigma? I'll be glad to show you what is a sandwich, pincer movement in rolls dice variant, or grinder 🙂 You'll probably change your mind.

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I don't fly MP, connection's not good enough for that. Also, all the tactics you mention are something you do before you merge. Once engaged in BFM, it's rather hard to maintain any sort of coordination. Sure, you can score an advantage if the bandits don't know what they're doing, but all the tactics you mentioned have counters. The side with numerical superiority will always have more options, but in an engagement with equal numbers, you can expect the net result to be largely neutral unless one side screws it up.

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On 4/27/2022 at 4:13 PM, Stratos said:

I understand all that, but how do you counter against it?

To keep it simple and to the point:

In a 1v1 merge there is no way to get on the six of a decent and aware MiG-15 with an F-5. There is no magic counter, regardless of speed, direction of the turns nothing will work, unless the 15 pilot looses sight or does something very dumb.

You'll need to use your speed to either disengage or reset the fight if you have P-5s (it might be difficult to get a tone head-on though)

The simple rule is:  never ever slow down, even if it is behind you taking shots. Just jink, try get some speed as quickly as possible.

In any 2v2 or many vs many, I'll just keep high speed and pretty much ignore the MiG-15 on my tail and try to get a shot on one of the other 15s that are occupied with my wingman or other friendlies.

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Not F-5, but I had luck entering fast and going vertical in a MiG-19 when fighting the MiG-15. It'd run out of energy and enter a straight, shallow climb, in which it was very easy to hit. The MiG-15 actually sucks in vertical, even as an AI aircraft. It doesn't even have an afterburner, so if you manage your turn properly, it'll have to level out before you do. The pull into vertical has to be smooth, as to avoid bleeding airspeed.

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8 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Not F-5, but I had luck entering fast and going vertical in a MiG-19 when fighting the MiG-15. It'd run out of energy and enter a straight, shallow climb, in which it was very easy to hit. The MiG-15 actually sucks in vertical, even as an AI aircraft. It doesn't even have an afterburner, so if you manage your turn properly, it'll have to level out before you do. The pull into vertical has to be smooth, as to avoid bleeding airspeed.

MiG-19 is a beast compared to the F-5, it has much better thrust to weight ratio. 

Also if the MiG-15 pilot stalls out trying to follow you into the vertical, that is entirely his mistake.

As long as the F-5 keeps high speed, it can try anything to see if the 15 pilot makes a mistake. 

 

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1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It was actually AI, and this behavior is pretty reproducible. It doesn't stall out but it turns stupid. Either way, the F-5 has more TW than the MiG-15, so it should still work, although with less margin for error. 

TW is the last thing an F-5 pilot should trust 🙂

Sure, it could work as long as entry speed is high and the F-5 is careful not to bleed it off.

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That's the key in fighting a MiG-15. Go fast and keep your speed up, because you can do it better than he can. The little thing is an amazing turner, not far removed from WWII aircraft, because it's so small and light. However, its lack of thrust is severe. It can do loops, particularly when going fast, but it can't keep up with anything that has an afterburner.

Part of the reason the MiG-17 was so great is that it's basically a MiG-15 with an afterburner, helping with TW deficiency. When it finally comes out, it should be a serious contender in any Cold War era fight, and able to challenge even the 4th gen fighters if flown well, or in guns-only events.

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