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F16 EX - First impressions


Terminator357

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TLDR....Get a WinWing if you can!  (their software sucks really bad tho)


Got my F16EX throttle and stick a few days ago. Thought I'd share a few observations since these things aren't cheap and most peeps have to put a lot of thought into spending this much cash on a game controller.

background: Original stick was an X52 HOTAS. I've owned TM and CH products as well. No Virpils, but I've used a few on other people's PCs.

I'm not going to waste your time talking about the quality of the gear itself. Design, construction, and utility are unrivaled. Seriously, Winwing controllers are for big-boys, these things are simply the best you can buy. All the stuff you read online about their build quality is true. If you want physical details, there are a lot of good reviews out there already.

So I'm just going to deal with the practicalities of using one these things.

First...they're really heavy. You are going to *need* a very solid gaming surface. I normally use a slide out keyboard tray to hold my X52 setup. Works great...But there's no way this tray will hold the weight of these controllers. I suspect most slide-out trays would have similar problems. In my case, I needed to wedge two aluminum struts under the tray to give it adequate support. 

Because of that weight, there is a lot of moving mass to them. The stick is heavy (but very smooth) and requires a good amount of force to move. The throttle has quite a bit of mass in the handle so as you actuate the idle and AB detents you put a lot of sideways pressure on the whole unit. This means that even though they're heavy units, they're still going to move around on your desk when you use them....Enter the suction cups. These things are the real deal. They grip really well for suction cups. Winwing sends these 'anti-slip' pads you can stick to the bottom of the controllers instead of the suction cups, but they are useless. There's no way those things are going to stop these units from moving around. 

Having said all of that, the controllers really do need to be screwed to a solid surface rather than relying on the cups. In the case of the F16 Throttle, the frame for the handle detents makes using two of the suction cups very difficult. You can do it, but the current assembly instructions don't tell you how. Even after you get all four suction cups installed, it'll still be a little 'tippy' when using the idle/AB detents. In my case, I used the afore mentioned struts to stabilize my keyboard tray, the suction cups to stabilize the base, and then wedged the front edge of the throttle base against the edge of my desk where it meets the keyboard tray. Without screwing it down, that's what it takes to stabilize the throttle base in a setting like mine 🙂 

All in all, if you have the right gaming set up to handle the mass of these things, they will be the best controllers you ever owned.

K, now for the not so good stuff....There isn't much, but the little bit that is bad, is really bad....SimApPro (their programming app) is pretty darn awful. It looks good, and the calibration section of it is very good, but everything else about is, well, not so good. The most glaring issue is the difficulty in programming keystrokes. Every other device I've ever owned had a software tool that was at least marginally useful for adding keystrokes. The X52 is a great example. 

I could not get SimApPro to record a single keystroke. I spent hours trying too...I'm willing to admit that it could be user error, but apps like this should behave more intuitive, or at least have very precise documentation so that a user can figure out what they are doing wrong. Neither of these things are true for SimApPro.

There's a method for creating virtual devices that (I think) is supposed to allow you to program key strokes directly to the throttle and stick, but all it did for me was add 6 "virtual devises" to SimApPro's list of devices, without actually letting me edit keystrokes for any of them...Ultimately, the controller setup tool in DCS is suitable for almost all of my needs, so this isn't a crippling defect for the Winwing products. 

But there are legit situations where being able to program a macro or keystroke that DCS doesn't provide for should be doable...like making a single button click to both Unzoom and Recenter my view when I'm looking out of the cockpit. Another is having a thumbstick configured for mouse emulation, or at least letting us configured one of them (there are two on the F16 setup) for that should we want it. X52's software is super useful in these situations. The combination of the DCS presets and macro-enabled controller made just about any key combo possible.

SimApPro is the only dog in the WinWing line of products. It's just not up to the same quality standard that their hardware is. That's most apparent when you side-by-side it with (very old) joystick software like the X52's. If Saitek can do it, then WinWing can too. If I was WinWing I'd spend some time working on my software product. Their hardware is basically 'perfected', time to make the software that supports it just as good. 

So for having said all of that, would I recommend a WinWing? #ell yes I would. You probably won't even notice the software issue if you're the kind of player that already configures everything thru DCS. The vastly better 'feel' of the joystick alone is worth every penny you pay over and above a mid-range HOTAS like a Saitek or TM(1600). Not exaggerating here, my flying instantly improved in the A10 and the only thing I changed was the controllers. That's the difference between a 'toy' (Saitek) and a real 'controller' (WinWing)

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@Terminator357 Thanks for the review. Super helpful.

I recently bought an F18 Orion 2 HOTAS from WW. I'm working on getting everything set up still and have limited time this month, so I'm mostly looking at it occasionally and salivating instead of using it.

I did have a question for you. We have different stick handles but the same Orion stick base. I agree with you about the heaviness, this stuff doesn't mess around. One thing I noticed however was a certain...I don't know how else to put it..."sproing" that occurs when returning to center when my hand is not on the stick. It sort of bobbles back and forth at center. When my hand is on the stick, finding center isn't a problem, but there is very little centering force compared to my previous gear (TM 160000). Have you noticed difficulty finding center when flying? Are the micro-adjustments problematic (introducing PIO, etc.) or is the lack of centering force easier to keep your maneuvering smooth?

                                                                                                   

32GB (4x8) DDR4 2400 | Intel Core i-7 8700 4.6 GHz | MSI ATX Pro Z-370-A | GeForce 2070RTX Super Founder's Edition
WinWing Orion 2 Hotas w/ Hornet Throttle and Stick grips | HP Reverb G2 | BenQ 21" 60Hz | TrackIR 5 + TrackClip Pro
Hornet driver, Blue Angel enthusiast, Tomcat stan

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Well, I am agree with all your conclusions, but.... really I don't use the winwing simapp software for other tha calibrate the device and assing axis, all the rest I do trough DCS settings, and I can assign whatever I want also modifiers (withe the pickle button for example), the way I use the mouse is , for example, in my F18 Orion stick I assign the little stick betwen the two hats as axis and button in Simapp, then with Joytokey app program this axis as mouse and all is done. Hope this helps you.

Here I show you my binding.....

image.pngimage.png

 

 

 

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Intel i9 10850k - MSI Tomahawk 490z - 64 GB DDR4 3000 - HP Reverb G2 - MSI optix Mag321curv 4k monitor - MSI RTX 3080ti - Winwing Orion Throttle base plus F18 stick

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hace 2 horas, Brother_Leb dijo:

@Terminator357 Thanks for the review. Super helpful.

I recently bought an F18 Orion 2 HOTAS from WW. I'm working on getting everything set up still and have limited time this month, so I'm mostly looking at it occasionally and salivating instead of using it.

I did have a question for you. We have different stick handles but the same Orion stick base. I agree with you about the heaviness, this stuff doesn't mess around. One thing I noticed however was a certain...I don't know how else to put it..."sproing" that occurs when returning to center when my hand is not on the stick. It sort of bobbles back and forth at center. When my hand is on the stick, finding center isn't a problem, but there is very little centering force compared to my previous gear (TM 160000). Have you noticed difficulty finding center when flying? Are the micro-adjustments problematic (introducing PIO, etc.) or is the lack of centering force easier to keep your maneuvering smooth?

For that, I put a little dead zone in the axis asignement trough SImApp and solved. And of course with my hand in the stick to stop the oscilation.

Must say that before with my other sticks (saitek x52 and x56 rhyno) I was not able to refuel any aircraft, now 90% times I do it very very easy....

Intel i9 10850k - MSI Tomahawk 490z - 64 GB DDR4 3000 - HP Reverb G2 - MSI optix Mag321curv 4k monitor - MSI RTX 3080ti - Winwing Orion Throttle base plus F18 stick

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3 hours ago, Brother_Leb said:

@Terminator357 Thanks for the review. Super helpful.

I recently bought an F18 Orion 2 HOTAS from WW. I'm working on getting everything set up still and have limited time this month, so I'm mostly looking at it occasionally and salivating instead of using it.

I did have a question for you. We have different stick handles but the same Orion stick base. I agree with you about the heaviness, this stuff doesn't mess around. One thing I noticed however was a certain...I don't know how else to put it..."sproing" that occurs when returning to center when my hand is not on the stick. It sort of bobbles back and forth at center. When my hand is on the stick, finding center isn't a problem, but there is very little centering force compared to my previous gear (TM 160000). Have you noticed difficulty finding center when flying? Are the micro-adjustments problematic (introducing PIO, etc.) or is the lack of centering force easier to keep your maneuvering smooth?

 

K, I gotta be honest with you all. I'm probably not as much a realism kind of player as I am a for-fun player. Haven't even tried to midair refuel yet, so as a flyer I might not be a great resource, but:

My old Saitek was really loose feeling. It wobbled all around center and flopped back n forth a bit like you describe. When I F2 camera myself the plane would be flying straight, but the wobble was noticeable.  Anyway, the spring tension on the WW is much stronger and the center detent is more positive feeling to me so I don't experience difficulty with it centering itself. I don't have my TM anymore to compare it to, but it's much firmer than the Saitek. Long story short- when you F2 cam my flying now, it's steady as a rock. My flying didn't really improve, I think the stick just stays on center a lot better than my old one. 

For real precise flying like midair refueling, it'd probably limit your fine inputs. I haven't tried, but I've read some posts on the forum from guys who say that it does exactly that. 

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58 minutes ago, firefox121 said:

Well, I am agree with all your conclusions, but.... really I don't use the winwing simapp software for other tha calibrate the device and assing axis, all the rest I do trough DCS settings, and I can assign whatever I want also modifiers (withe the pickle button for example), the way I use the mouse is , for example, in my F18 Orion stick I assign the little stick betwen the two hats as axis and button in Simapp, then with Joytokey app program this axis as mouse and all is done. Hope this helps you.

Here I show you my binding.....

image.pngimage.png

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing that. I think the SimAp software tries to do something similar with its virtual device settings, I just couldn't get them to work 🙂 I've avoided installing another app up to this point, but the inability to recenter my head tracker or perform multiple view inputs is annoying me so I may have to do it anyway.

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hace 13 minutos, Terminator357 dijo:

Thanks for sharing that. I think the SimAp software tries to do something similar with its virtual device settings, I just couldn't get them to work 🙂 I've avoided installing another app up to this point, but the inability to recenter my head tracker or perform multiple view inputs is annoying me so I may have to do it anyway.

The joytokey program doesnt eat resources, is a very little program, in the other hand, to recenter your headset, go to DCS and in the controls settings find UI control, there you will see VR recenter option, with your joys plugged into the computer, try the button you feel the more confortable, for me I am using the tree way switch the left side of my left trottle, when I push it forward, it centers my view, when push aft I asigned VR zoom and none to the center position....It works well for me.

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Intel i9 10850k - MSI Tomahawk 490z - 64 GB DDR4 3000 - HP Reverb G2 - MSI optix Mag321curv 4k monitor - MSI RTX 3080ti - Winwing Orion Throttle base plus F18 stick

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1 hour ago, firefox121 said:

The joytokey program doesnt eat resources, is a very little program, in the other hand, to recenter your headset, go to DCS and in the controls settings find UI control, there you will see VR recenter option, with your joys plugged into the computer, try the button you feel the more confortable, for me I am using the tree way switch the left side of my left trottle, when I push it forward, it centers my view, when push aft I asigned VR zoom and none to the center position....It works well for me.

 

Hey, great tip. I'll give it a try and report back. Gracias, senoire 👍

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Tried it but it didn't really accomplish what I was looking for. Perhaps because I'm not playing in VR(?) I move around in my chair a lot when I play and sometimes my head tracker (grassmonkey) doesn't recenter my view well depending on where my head is. A quick click of Num5 hotkeys the HT software to recenter itself. Being able to set a joystick button to output a simple [Num5] which the game sees as "Center View" and the HT software sees as "Recenter HT" recenters both with one button click. It's pretty helpful, like when I'm lining up a CCRP bomb and the impact point lines are all wonky because I'm slouching in my chair 🙂 Right now, the stick just outputs "Button_xxx", I need it to output "Num5". 

I might just go for the joytokey option. Looks easier than trying to make simappro or dcs do it.  

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Do you have v2 of the Orion? Looking at the pictures on the website for the v2 it looks like the rail for the frame covers all the mounting holes. Is that the case? 

Pacotito

 

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9 minutes ago, pacotito said:

Do you have v2 of the Orion? Looking at the pictures on the website for the v2 it looks like the rail for the frame covers all the mounting holes. Is that the case? 

Yep, v2. If I put it together right (I think I did) then two of the mount holes are still useable, two are covered. You can fudge it by using the screw base of the suction cups in place of one of the bolts that screw the frame to the base. That'll put four suction on your gaming surface, the two you fudge will be offset toward the center of the base by an inch or so from where the normal mounting holes are.

It's hard to explain but you'll see what I mean when you start fiddling with it. Only works if you plan on using the suction cups. If you want to screw it down on all four corners with hardware, you'll have to get creative for two of them. A screw down clamp might do the trick. There are two aluminum feet that extend a couple of inches out from the mounting frame, a surface clamp could grab them easily.

 

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hace 14 horas, Terminator357 dijo:

Tried it but it didn't really accomplish what I was looking for. Perhaps because I'm not playing in VR(?) I move around in my chair a lot when I play and sometimes my head tracker (grassmonkey) doesn't recenter my view well depending on where my head is. A quick click of Num5 hotkeys the HT software to recenter itself. Being able to set a joystick button to output a simple [Num5] which the game sees as "Center View" and the HT software sees as "Recenter HT" recenters both with one button click. It's pretty helpful, like when I'm lining up a CCRP bomb and the impact point lines are all wonky because I'm slouching in my chair 🙂 Right now, the stick just outputs "Button_xxx", I need it to output "Num5". 

I might just go for the joytokey option. Looks easier than trying to make simappro or dcs do it.  

Yep, You're right, I play in VR, sorry for the missunderstanding, when I Played with TRACKIR (don´t know if you're using this software for your device or another), I assigned also the center button in the trackIR software to the joy button I told you, If your device software is unable to read joy inputs, then the only option left I can figure is the joytokey program.

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Intel i9 10850k - MSI Tomahawk 490z - 64 GB DDR4 3000 - HP Reverb G2 - MSI optix Mag321curv 4k monitor - MSI RTX 3080ti - Winwing Orion Throttle base plus F18 stick

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hace 1 hora, Terminator357 dijo:

JoyToKey turned out to a be a good solution. Thx for the suggestion...Highly recommend it to others who have similar concerns about simappro.

Doesn't matter, here to help if I can, keep on the good flight, see you in the skyes

Intel i9 10850k - MSI Tomahawk 490z - 64 GB DDR4 3000 - HP Reverb G2 - MSI optix Mag321curv 4k monitor - MSI RTX 3080ti - Winwing Orion Throttle base plus F18 stick

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