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When is ED going to Fix WWII . ????


KoN

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The list of bugs is endless for WWII . 

More content coming out yet with no fixes or little input from ED . 

If I remember Flying Legends is a sponsor of DCS warbirds . Correct . 

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28 minutes ago, KoN said:

The list of bugs is endless for WWII . 

More content coming out yet with no fixes or little input from ED . 

If I remember Flying Legends is a sponsor of DCS warbirds . Correct . 

We have already fixed many issues, 

if you have a bug you dont think has been addressed please make a bug report with a short track replay example. 

thanks

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Thank you . 

Any news on the Spotting issues we have in DCS . Close combat . ? 

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15 hours ago, KoN said:

Thank you . 

Any news on the Spotting issues we have in DCS . Close combat . ? 

No plans currently, we are happy with the current implementation. Personally I do not have any issue and I use the reverbG2 VR for most of my flying. 

thanks

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53 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

No plans currently, we are happy with the current implementation. Personally I do not have any issue and I use the reverbG2 VR for most of my flying. 

thanks

Oh Dear . 

I'm guess that you have a top of the range system . 3080 or above . 

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The whole gist of this thread seems pretty harsh - there’s nothing that even comes close to the DCS: Warbirds modelling and “feel”

Yes, there’s still plenty to do, but ED do appear to be making steady and real progress

Most desired fix for me is AI gunnery accuracy. You could probably attack a VIIC, S-Boat of assault transport with an F-16 at full A/B and still get shredded 

 

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28 minutes ago, KoN said:

Oh Dear . 

I'm guess that you have a top of the range system . 3080 or above . 

You have a GTX1080 according to your signature, so I really don't know what are you're talking about 🤣.

Spotting is not that bad now, the issue was addressed time ago. But it's still realistic, if you expect to spot things at any distance and in any lighting conditions like in playstation games you won't for sure.

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If you have problems I would recommend using dot neutral for labels it can help get your eye in. 

thanks

53 minutes ago, KoN said:

I'm guess that you have a top of the range system . 3080 or above .

3090

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Something that is easy enough for anyone to try regardless of the system you have, mine is pretty low end, is make a simple mission where you follow the lead Ai plane of your choice.

Have the Ai go slow enough to make it easy to catch and make the starting distance between the two planes at least 1 mile (1.6 km). As you get closer to the Ai plane, intermittently pause the SIM to note the level of detail you can see before taking a measurement of the distance between. Continue doing this until  satisfied.

If you compare the level of detail you see in the SIM to real world objects at the same distance, I think you will find it to be pretty realistic.

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21 hours ago, KoN said:

Thank you . 

Any news on the Spotting issues we have in DCS . Close combat . ? 

Something else I should add is have you tried comparing what its like looking for enemies on the free Mariana Isl. map in comparison to the Normandy map? I don't know if its just me, but I find spotting planes on Mariana Isl easier.

For anyone that wants to practice and get better at spotting, again it is very easy to setup in the mission editor.

Simply put the specific planes you want to practice identifying in a large continuous looping pattern with a set speed/elevation.

You can then fly around them knowing exactly where they are and at what specific elevation to start getting use to being able to tell the difference between the various planes from different angles and distances.

Don't forget to make all the planes the same coalition so that you can observe without the distraction of being shot at, unless you want that of course.


Edited by Callsign112
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6 hours ago, Callsign112 said:

Something that is easy enough for anyone to try regardless of the system you have, mine is pretty low end, is make a simple mission where you follow the lead Ai plane of your choice.

Have the Ai go slow enough to make it easy to catch and make the starting distance between the two planes at least 1 mile (1.6 km). As you get closer to the Ai plane, intermittently pause the SIM to note the level of detail you can see before taking a measurement of the distance between. Continue doing this until  satisfied.

If you compare the level of detail you see in the SIM to real world objects at the same distance, I think you will find it to be pretty realistic.

There is an issue with LOD. I use zoom OUT to spot better opposite of what I’d expect.

Distant planes that appear as dots disappear when I zoom in on them when they transition from a single pixel to a minimal shape of a few pixels. Most times it turns into a blurry transparent shape that is extremely difficult to separate from the background. When I get close enough or zoom way in, the target size gets bigger and it “reappears” as a solid shape.

Some say that image “enhancers” such as reshade that remove the blurry haze invthe DCS sky makes this mid-range spotting easier. Perhaps it prevents from planes being rendered as transparent at very low LODs.

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3 hours ago, Bozon said:

There is an issue with LOD. I use zoom OUT to spot better opposite of what I’d expect.

Distant planes that appear as dots disappear when I zoom in on them when they transition from a single pixel to a minimal shape of a few pixels. Most times it turns into a blurry transparent shape that is extremely difficult to separate from the background. When I get close enough or zoom way in, the target size gets bigger and it “reappears” as a solid shape.

Some say that image “enhancers” such as reshade that remove the blurry haze invthe DCS sky makes this mid-range spotting easier. Perhaps it prevents from planes being rendered as transparent at very low LODs.

Yeah obviously I don't understand the problem your facing exactly, and can't say that spotting other aircraft gets easier for me when I zoom out. I have a very low end system (RX580 8GB), so I doubt there is any sort of advantage there. I run the stable version without any mods. I have TrackIR but am not using it at the moment, and don't have VR. The LOD I am seeing in game seems to be normal for me, or at least what I would expect when viewing an object the size of an airplane at the distances I am viewing from.

I made a simple mission to save anyone interested the time it would take to do the same. The mission has the player in a TF-51D so you don't even have to own a flyable module to try spotting for yourself on the Mariana Is. map. There are six different planes to spot. You can fly around changing the angle and distance while pausing the SIM intermittently to better appreciate the LOD in the plane being spotted.

I'm not sure what LOD should be expected when viewing a WWII fighter from 5km away, but I am not expected to see anything more than a dot really. The following 5 sets of pictures show me spotting the group of 6 planes from approximately 5, 4, 3, 1, and .300 km. 

 

5.png

5k.png

4.png

4k.png

Bird Watching.miz

Cont'n...

 

3.png

3k.png

1.1.png

1k.png

Cont'n...

 

300.png

300k.png


Edited by Callsign112
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On 4/29/2022 at 10:23 AM, rkk01 said:

The whole gist of this thread seems pretty harsh - there’s nothing that even comes close to the DCS: Warbirds modelling and “feel”

Yes, there’s still plenty to do, but ED do appear to be making steady and real progress

Most desired fix for me is AI gunnery accuracy. You could probably attack a VIIC, S-Boat of assault transport with an F-16 at full A/B and still get shredded 

 

Totally agree on the Aim-Bot with ground forces ,. 

This is also a fix that needs to come . 

But saying WWII spotting is good and that's in VR  is not correct . 

Not being hash here . Its a long time coming Some body needs to say some thing . 

On 4/29/2022 at 10:46 AM, Ala13_ManOWar said:

You have a GTX1080 according to your signature, so I really don't know what are you're talking about 🤣.

Spotting is not that bad now, the issue was addressed time ago. But it's still realistic, if you expect to spot things at any distance and in any lighting conditions like in playstation games you won't for sure.

Please don't be a fool here . 1080 or 3090 its all the same . lol . 

Ok then crack on and let there be no changes . your defending issues .

Why are the WWII servers empty . Because no one can see the dam targets .they are just black dots that blend into dark back grounds . 

Looks great on YouTube . 

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21 hours ago, Bozon said:

There is an issue with LOD. I use zoom OUT to spot better opposite of what I’d expect.

Distant planes that appear as dots disappear when I zoom in on them when they transition from a single pixel to a minimal shape of a few pixels. Most times it turns into a blurry transparent shape that is extremely difficult to separate from the background. When I get close enough or zoom way in, the target size gets bigger and it “reappears” as a solid shape.

Some say that image “enhancers” such as reshade that remove the blurry haze invthe DCS sky makes this mid-range spotting easier. Perhaps it prevents from planes being rendered as transparent at very low LODs.

This maybe i use the wrong word . SPOTTING . i can see black dots but its when in close they get totally lost to background . 

WWII pilots trained on black  siloits out lines . Yet DCS struggles with this . You have to be in really close to get a good picture . 

17 hours ago, Callsign112 said:

Yeah obviously I don't understand the problem your facing exactly, and can't say that spotting other aircraft gets easier for me when I zoom out. I have a very low end system (RX580 8GB), so I doubt there is any sort of advantage there. I run the stable version without any mods. I have TrackIR but am not using it at the moment, and don't have VR. The LOD I am seeing in game seems to be normal for me, or at least what I would expect when viewing an object the size of an airplane at the distances I am viewing from.

I made a simple mission to save anyone interested the time it would take to do the same. The mission has the player in a TF-51D so you don't even have to own a flyable module to try spotting for yourself on the Mariana Is. map. There are six different planes to spot. You can fly around changing the angle and distance while pausing the SIM intermittently to better appreciate the LOD in the plane being spotted.

I'm not sure what LOD should be expected when viewing a WWII fighter from 5km away, but I am not expected to see anything more than a dot really. The following 5 sets of pictures show me spotting the group of 6 planes from approximately 5, 4, 3, 1, and .300 km. 

 

5.png

5k.png

4.png

4k.png

Bird Watching.miz 13.56 kB · 1 download

Cont'n...

 

3.png

3k.png

1.1.png

1k.png

Cont'n...

 

300.png

300k.png

 

Thank you for your time and effort but your spotting against open water . Try the Normandy map looking down onto targets in an online server or try and track your enemy .

Gigabyte - X570 UD ~ Ryzen - 5600X @ 4.7 - Pulse - RX-6800 -  XPG 32:GB @ 3200 - VKB - Gunfighter 4 - STECs - Throttle - Crosswinds Rudders - Trackir 5 .

I'm a dot . Pico Nero 3 link VR . @ 4k

Win 11 Pro 64Bit .

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1 hour ago, KoN said:

This maybe i use the wrong word . SPOTTING . i can see black dots but its when in close they get totally lost to background . 

WWII pilots trained on black  siloits out lines . Yet DCS struggles with this . You have to be in really close to get a good picture . 

Thank you for your time and effort but your spotting against open water . Try the Normandy map looking down onto targets in an online server or try and track your enemy .

DCS has serious issues with what is drawn in the middle ranges and it is a few separate issues.

Aircraft in the middle distance against the dark blue sky disappear when they should be black silhouettes. That is a lighting issue. A backlit aircraft should be dark nearly black unless it is damn close. Its as if there is a second sun shining up from the surface.

It isn't nearly as bad against the whiter shade of blue near the horizon.

Aircraft disappear against the ground in the middle distance, especially outside of the VR sweet spot.

I can see dots at 45 miles but they will disappear for a period. I actually use it to the gauge distance. I know when the dot disappears the merge is coming quickly (in jets). I normally have to get on the deck to make sure I have a chance at visual reacquisition by keeping them against the sky.

I fly exclusively multiplayer, WVR jets at the moment. The problem seems much worse in MP, probably because humans are much more unpredictable.

I fly in VR (Reverb G2) with  an I9-10900K overclocked to 5.2, 64 Gb RAM and a 3090 GPU and have to turn down a bunch of settings to make spotting possible in MP, WVR air combat.

A bit of a shame to have to make the game uglier in order to see the enemy.

Of course, until ED recognizes that it is an actual problem I may as well get used to it.


Edited by =475FG= Dawger
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52 minutes ago, KoN said:

This maybe i use the wrong word . SPOTTING . i can see black dots but its when in close they get totally lost to background . 

WWII pilots trained on black  siloits out lines . Yet DCS struggles with this . You have to be in really close to get a good picture . 

Thank you for your time and effort but your spotting against open water . Try the Normandy map looking down onto targets in an online server or try and track your enemy .

Yes I know I am spotting over open water. The point was to see if you knew!

I asked you questions regarding this same issue you raised in another thread, but you never responded. The questions were meant to try and get at what exactly is the issue you are having so that I can give more appropriate input.

The post you are quoting here is answering to comments regarding the level of visible detail when viewing planes at distance. So I would argue that my efforts were well spent!

Like I said, obviously I don't fully understand the problem you are facing because if the complaint is that a plane looks like a dot when viewed from more than 1 km, then I'm not sure the issue your raising can be fixed because it is part of the physical world we live in.

The fact that it is normal to loose color saturation/detail definition as distance increases means that objects will blend into the background more easily.

But I am wondering if you aren't mixing two separate issues. One issue seems to be related to the way an object's ability to blend into its background improves after its been colored/covered in some type of camouflage. The second issue is you may be placing unrealistic expectations on the LOD of planes you are viewing at distance. 

So to better understand, what distance are you having problems at, and what LOD are you expecting to see at those distances?

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Callsign112 said:

 

Like I said, obviously I don't fully understand the problem you are facing because if the complaint is that a plane looks like a dot when viewed from more than 1 km, then I'm not sure the issue your raising can be fixed because it is part of the physical world we live in.

 

 

 

 

Wrong. In the real world, at 1km details are visible. Even the smallest aircraft is identifiable by type. A single engine Cessna can be identified at 2km. 75 cm tall letters can be read at 350 meters.

 

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Wrong? Maybe, but are you trying to tell me if we both were sitting 1+ km from a group of parked cars, you would be able to tell me the make and model of the cars without knowing what they were beforehand?

At 1 km... which details are visible? A single engine Cessna can be identified and picked out of a group of other types of single engine planes of similar size at 2 km?

So are you saying that the LOD in the images I posted above does not match with what you would see at those distances IRL? Because I thought that was the point behind the person I was quoting, and the reason I quoted him.

 

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3 hours ago, KoN said:

Please don't be a fool here . 1080 or 3090 its all the same . lol .

🤣🤣🤣 Please, don't you be a fool here. I had a GTX1080 until 4-5 months ago, I now have a RTX3080Ti and it only makes a difference in the number you see in the top left FPS counter, the rest of it is everything the exact very same. If you think that makes a difference in spotting you're being a fooled foolish fool all the way long and back. Capisce? 😉

About your statement of WWII guys "training" with black silhouettes, again don't be the foolish fool you already shown yourself to be, that has nothing, zero, anything, to do with what you actually see in the air, but with ease of printing in the 30's, or perhaps you expected 8K resolution digital photos in full colour when they didn't even know what many enemy aircraft looked like?? You're really naive if you think so.

BTW, I'm talking about own RL experience. Apparently you all look for game like features all of the time, but I've seen it in RL, and that's in General Aviation, hence mostly white painted small aircraft and you don't see a damn thing (150% visual acuity here :music_whistling:) until they are really close to you. Nobody told me, I've seen it, 1 mile, 2 miles target in front of you? You don't see it, you just don't, you won'tsee a target either airborne or grounded from the distances you pretend to see them. In playstation games? Of course, that happens, IRL it just doesn't and DCS is all about REALISM.

Servers are empty because you spoiled kiddoes want it all easy and already done for you, but that's not how RL works. Contacts disappear!!! Guess what?? They do IRL 🤣, I've seen it also, I spotted once 4 Mirage F1s in close diamond formation from an airliner, 500ft below us, 90º heading from us, air superiority grey painted (F1M they were), and guess what? You spot them and a second later they are literally gone, you don't see a damn thing, but I still have 150% visual acuity, remember? what do you think other people would have seen there? Easily told, nothing at all, you wouldn't even spot them in the first place 😉. That's how Real Life works, and DCS does a pretty good job in resembling how real life works. You don't like real life? Must be a bug or something 😅.


Edited by Ala13_ManOWar
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51 minutes ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Servers are empty because you spoiled kiddoes want it all easy and already done for you, but that's not how RL works. Contacts disappear!!! Guess what?? They do IRL 🤣,

 

You come off really pompous and trying to show that you are better than everyone else.

This is not how real life works, even if you have above average vision - spotting planes has more to do with the ability to focus your eyes to infinity with no object to focus them on, and the ability to spot a tiny movement - these are two abilities that are different between different people and not directly related to eye sight acuteness.

I don’t want a sim to simulate MY vision ability, as much as I don’t want it to simulate MY tolerance to G - there is a reason I am not a fighter pilot. I expect a sim to simulate these abilities of a good pilot and allow me to experience it.

The specific issue with DCS is not the dot spotting, but what happens when the target size is slightly more than a single pixel. The rendering calculates a surface brightness than is very near the background and the target blends into the background- if at this point you zoom OUT a bit to reduce the target back to a pixel, it becomes visible again.

The magnitude of this effect depends on your graphic settings, which will be different depending on personal preference and what you card is capable of running. In addition many people seem to use Reshade or other enhancer programs, and these too have infinite options. This is why different people report different experiences. I understand why ED do not want to go down this dirty rabbit hole.

 

Just for the record, I have some experience in light aircraft, helicopters, and up to F-16D backseat, plus some years as GCI. I know how distant planes look like in the air, and the typical distances at which fighter pilots with far better eyes than mine report visual contact with other fighters.

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2 hours ago, Callsign112 said:

Wrong? Maybe, but are you trying to tell me if we both were sitting 1+ km from a group of parked cars, you would be able to tell me the make and model of the cars without knowing what they were beforehand?

At 1 km... which details are visible? A single engine Cessna can be identified and picked out of a group of other types of single engine planes of similar size at 2 km?

So are you saying that the LOD in the images I posted above does not match with what you would see at those distances IRL? Because I thought that was the point behind the person I was quoting, and the reason I quoted him.

 

Its quite a leap from an airplane being a dot at 1 km to identifying car make and model at 1km.

The visual acuity of the human eye is quite well known. 

Normal humans can differentiate objects or patterns that subtend about 1 arc minute.

A standard football (soccer ball) subtends an angle of 1 arc minute at 756 meters. That means you can see this 22 cm diameter object but not discern any details on its surface at 756 meters.

It would be a dot.

At 1 km, details on the cars larger than about 30 cm would be discernible to the human eye. Probably not details enough to determine make and model.

An aircraft with an 11 meter wingspan (A Cessna 172) would be a barely visible dot at 37 km. At half that distance (18.5 km), you could begin to resolve its wings from its fuselage. 

At 2 km, objects or details about 1/2 a meter can be resolved. Someone familiar with aircraft could certainly differentiate a Cessna from a Piper.

At 1 km, a 1 meter object subtends 3 arc minutes and are fairly easily discernible.

The USAF teaches its aircrews to estimate distance by the level of detail that can be discerned. An example is the ability to see the angled engine intakes on the F15 happens at approximately 3000 feet or about 915 meters.

 

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34 minutes ago, Bozon said:

...The specific issue with DCS is not the dot spotting, but what happens when the target size is slightly more than a single pixel. The rendering calculates a surface brightness than is very near the background and the target blends into the background- if at this point you zoom OUT a bit to reduce the target back to a pixel, it becomes visible again.

That is a very interesting point because it turns out the amount of light being emitted by an object plays a role in the distance it will remain visible. If the amount of light being emitted by an object is similar, or less than its background surrounding, it will certainly retain an ability to blend in especially as distance increases. Ever wonder why flat colors are used a lot in the camouflage industry?

Now if you can actually show that DCS is rendering object brightness incorrectly, then I think you might be on to something. Otherwise your simply pointing to the fact that light is implicated in how well an object can be seen at any given distance. I am not saying that you are wrong, or that you can't show it, just pointing to the relevance here.

But I think the main point here for me at least is that @KoN , yourself, and others are voicing concerns about something that would understandably be a concern for DCS users. I completely get it. If there is an actual problem with the way DCS renders object light and that is affecting game play, then your point is not only understandable, its valid and should be looked into. 

But my point is directed more at the general premise being used to frame the argument. In terms of the level of detail in relation to distance, it appears accurate IMO.

And in terms of loosing sight of your enemy during close combat, this is also very much a part of what happens in real life. When viewing something even from just 300 meters away, which is close to normal gun convergence, the object is a fraction of its actual size. This fact greatly contributes to its ability to blend in to the back ground especially if it is designed to not emit a lot of light, and that is before we consider things like speed.

Consider this, you loose sight of the Mustang your chasing as he drops onto the deck. He is now traveling perpendicular to your heading at top speed. He is creating approximately 1 km of distance between the two of you every 5 seconds. The point to focus on here is not so much the distance, but his change in position. He is getting harder to spot with each passing second, and his position is constantly changing. So it shouldn't be a big surprise that once you loose sight of him, it gets really hard to find him again because his position is changing in an unknown direction while the actual visibility of his plane is also decreasing.

Hitting the deck to make a run for it was an actual strategy that sometimes worked, and was sometimes the pilots only chance in real life. 

Other than being able to show that DCS is rendering object light incorrectly, my suggestion would be to use the SIM to practice the extremely difficult skill of situational awareness. I often use the pause/F10 map buttons to help with this. I understand that everyone would like to get better in the MP setting. I think the best arena for that is to practice in the SP setting first.

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25 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

Its quite a leap from an airplane being a dot at 1 km to identifying car make and model at 1km.

The visual acuity of the human eye is quite well known. 

Normal humans can differentiate objects or patterns that subtend about 1 arc minute.

A standard football (soccer ball) subtends an angle of 1 arc minute at 756 meters. That means you can see this 22 cm diameter object but not discern any details on its surface at 756 meters.

It would be a dot.

At 1 km, details on the cars larger than about 30 cm would be discernible to the human eye. Probably not details enough to determine make and model.

An aircraft with an 11 meter wingspan (A Cessna 172) would be a barely visible dot at 37 km. At half that distance (18.5 km), you could begin to resolve its wings from its fuselage. 

At 2 km, objects or details about 1/2 a meter can be resolved. Someone familiar with aircraft could certainly differentiate a Cessna from a Piper.

At 1 km, a 1 meter object subtends 3 arc minutes and are fairly easily discernible.

The USAF teaches its aircrews to estimate distance by the level of detail that can be discerned. An example is the ability to see the angled engine intakes on the F15 happens at approximately 3000 feet or about 915 meters.

 

No one is making a leap to anywhere. You made a blank statement about the real world detail that was visible at 1 km, I just filled in the blank for you!

But the question was, are you saying that the LOD in the images I posted above do not represent what we should expect to see in real life? In the image taken from about 4 km, you can clearly see all six planes. The actual distance separating them in the ME is 100 meters. If you have a picture of multiple WWII fighters taken from about 4 km, why don't you put it here so we can all see the LOD of real life?

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