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AIM 120C Still easily defeatable


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26 minutes ago, Hobel said:

The track is over an hour long and the behavior depicted should hopefully be more than familiar.  It served only once again as an example.

I was able to read numbers on PC screen. At first I though it was related to speed/angle.

It looks like the moment missile got notched is 0:15:00 due to the rapid G reduction immediately after. He seems to be in a perfect notch at this point, and your missile stops turning, which increases the separation of trajectories, since target is still pulls at 5G. Distance is 2.81nm, which is quite the distance, with angle +12.1 degree.

At 0:20:00 the missile had a really good chance of reacquiring, but the vertical separation was already 3500ft and distance 1.29nm.

Nothing wrong with his notch, he was really there, but why not re-acquiring? Was the missile battery depleted?

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13 hours ago, okopanja said:

Thanks! I will try to locate the paperback and in worst case order the kindle version.

One last question: did you calculate that accuracy and if yes where did input data come from?

Thats a generalized accuracy thrown around, not one I calculated. The actual formula is in the picture i posted. 

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11 hours ago, Hobel said:

Is such behavior intentional or correct?
https://streamable.com/scad96

 

Not seeing anything wrong here. 

smallCATPILOT.PNG.04bbece1b27ff1b2c193b174ec410fc0.PNG

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vor einer Stunde schrieb BIGNEWY:

Not seeing anything wrong here. 

Would appreciate your point of view why you see nothing wrong. I highly doupt that. By the way if you look closer to the short video -> he is in40k ft.. there is littlery nothing i can or i want to say about that because it is way to easy to see why the missile is "not good".

Overall the Missile mechanic seems not working correctly. Still very very easily notchable. Still easy to defeat inside 5NM with just a cold turn. I miss the mechanic from 2020 (and not since the update of the end of the year) but without the desyncs.. Those where Missiles and NOT what we have here right now.


Edited by Night Raid
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2 hours ago, DCSoping said:

Nearly every amraam fired now does something that makes my jaw drop. 

This is not even about notching. Amraam logic right now is to go after everything except the target (chaff, other missiles, the moon's gravitational pull) . 
Then go after chaff preferably from another aircraft 20 miles away, and then to get confused by the ground. If missile is still tracking after those, there is 'random miss error' or whatever to absolutely make sure it will not hit. 
Firing from high with better parameters (more alt and more speed) is useless now. 
So it's best to just fly low in the clown show with the rest of 'm because you'll almost never get hit unless within visual range (and even then, fly low = almost guaranteed of miss). 


But on top of that, as always, ED is building on ruins. 
All the missile logic in the world would not help when there is not even lag compensation, and hit registration is still client  side. 

That is literally early 90's multiplayer capabilities. 
 

 

 

 

I think this summarizing all of our frustrations. The ED seems dont care too much with multiplayer, patch after patch, the problem seems worse.

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5 hours ago, DCSoping said:

Firing from high with better parameters (more alt and more speed) is useless now. 
So it's best to just fly low in the clown show with the rest of 'm because you'll almost never get hit unless within visual range (and even then, fly low = almost guaranteed of miss). 

100% Agreed. There was another forum topic titled "is a bvr a thing of past?" and I definitely think it is. Other than public pvp servers, I can't remember a single long range (at this point with these amraams my lr definition is above 10+) amraam hit its target.

AMRAAMs guidance logic is broken. Yeah doppler gate was also a problem but not the biggest one because missile will do something weird and either drain its energy or just dive into ground before the terminal phase doppler gate can be a factor. And even though in the patch notes its said to be adjusted, I couldn't see any difference in 3 hours of 1v1-2v2 all terrain testing.

It'd be enough if they just revert to pre-ins update amraams, they also were not perfect but way better than what we have rn. After that update, amraam guidance logic is just guidance without actual logic imo 😄
 

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To put in some more flavor :
Many broken things with amraams in a single round, very easy to reproduce in fact it always happens. Mind the altitudes, ranges, and aspects. Back in old amraams these ranges were horribly lethal.

Tacview 2022.05.01 - 01.09.16.01 (streamable.com)

?? no description, just found it funny how these amraams can do this (launching to jettison them, without radar lock or memory guidance)
Tacview_2022.02.18_-_17.18.17.10 (streamable.com)

PvP in DCS has been really annoying for a long time, kinda started with phoenix desyncs and all. After many months, and many reports, its still being said there is nothing wrong with missiles and we can't see any improvement. Even though patch notes sometimes include fixes or adjustments, nothing changes. Im getting tired of saying "I hope they'll fix it" and kinda getting tired of being patient. This is not an insult. I and probably many others just want the best for both ED and us. 
 

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Had a mission tonight, 5 aircraft, 18 AMRAAM fired, 3 hits. 16.7% PK. Almost every single was missing ridiculously easily, something is definitely very wrong this patch.

Hopefully this gets fixed soon! An AMRAAM should have a very reliable and high Pk vs. a target that does not kinematically defeat the missile (drag away/turn cold), missiles are being defeated right now by gentle descents hot aspect.

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20 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Not seeing anything wrong here. 

Okay but shouldn't the notch vulnerability be adjusted with the update?  

 

Before the patch an approach speed of over 55km/h was necessary for a flying object (with 5RCS) if the value was below that the missile did not see it anymore.  

 

This can be tested pretty accurately in dcs they will always observe the same result.  

 

After the update this is exactly still the case, there was no change.   And this also coincides with the experience reports of the others here   

 

So was this forgotten to include here or are there problems elsewhere?

 

Or how exactly is this statement to be interpreted?

Quote

Weapons. AMRAAM's were too easy to notch when performing a notching maneuver inside of pitbull range - solved. Improved range gate modeling for missiles with active radar sensors.

 


Edited by Hobel
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The team are looking into the close range shots currently. 

thanks

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Is it possible for them to just revert to old amraams if thats a thing? I understand it's open beta (although broken amraams are also in stable) but its been really long with these problems. If we could just get the old amraams at least we could enjoy literally only thing we do in DCS. Meanwhile team would work on new amraams and if they need testing they always have the cb testers

(Late 2020 versions is what I mean by old amraams)
@BIGNEWY


Edited by vtaf_archer
added date
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Throwing my little test against the AI in the hat.  The last shot was particularly egregious but I'd argue most of these are high Pk shots.  I think the only way I got the kill on the first Flanker was because it was firing just about the same time my missile completed the intercept.  I couldn't get get kills on a PvE training server at all this morning despite firing at highly favorable targets and launch conditions. This includes supporting the shots until they go pitbull.  Keep in mind this is on a training server with lower skill AI.  I took like 8 or 9 shots and couldn't buy a kill. 

Tacview-20220502-085340-DCS-Syria Air Combat Training-1.zip.acmi

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On 4/30/2022 at 7:24 AM, BIGNEWY said:

Not seeing anything wrong here. 

A giant radar return less than a mile directly off the nose of the missile doesn't raise any red flags for you?

Its going to be hard to have a discussion If the starting point is that far apart, quite frankly. 

Only because stating something as 100% certain is foolish- I find it HIGHLY UNLIKELY that an Aim120's seeker and couldn't tell the difference between terrain very far away, and a f14 very close (we don't even need to consider that DCS does not simulate geometry of the aircraft to compute RCS either). Under no reaonable circumstances besides a major failure of equipment or software should that missile have missed. 

Please, I think we would all like to hear the rationale for how that missile, with look down capabilities, Medium PRF signal processing, and a host of other modern features, could lose track of a Tomcat at 1000 feet from impact against clear blue sky or a ground which is miles away. 

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Another upload if it helps.  Did launch a bit on the early side, two shots per target at 27nm from the high 20s. M 1.16 on my jet, bandit  M 0.85.  Both tracked, lost then regained then were trashed  again and the banding wasn't in a 90 degree notch, instead closer to 50 degrees.  First missile was doing about M 1.7 when it lost track and went stupid.  Following images are when the missile lost track:

 

0frydmGmissile-lost.png

 

missile-lost-2.png

Both shots lost track at the same time despite being having different intercept angles and positions.

Tacview-20220502-122100-DCS-4YA_CAU_PVE_v6.zip.acmi


Edited by Thunder Chicken22
Adding tacview file
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again I appreciate the tacviews but we need dcs track replays that can be used on our internal versions. 

With that said I have two good track replays sent to me in private and we will look closer. 

thanks

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U.S weapons tend to be understated on paper performance wise, while Soviet made weapons are overstated on paper.. The 120 should see a decent bump here and Soviet missiles should be failing about 60% of the time (at least that's what DoD estimates how their missiles are performing in Ukraine). More or less any soviet jet shooting a missile should need only but a flare or 2 to fool it and should probably all out fail a certain % of the time. 

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1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

again I appreciate the tacviews but we need dcs track replays that can be used on our internal versions. 

With that said I have two good track replays sent to me in private and we will look closer. 

thanks

Here is a track of the main issue, the missile being too easy to notch. There are other issues in multiplayer causing missiles to miss in unreasonable situations as pointed out by others in this thread that are a harder to reproduce in a single player mission. 

 

aim120 too easy to notch_1.trk

 

Also, the missile sometimes behaves like an iron dome kind of system. Look at this track. I chose the F/A-18 because its radar can reliably track missiles (for an unknow reason) to demonstrate the following problem: When you're having a close range fight and both planes fires simultaneously, the missiles often will swap target and they start tracking each other instead of tracking the planes, even when youre 100% sure that the contact you fired your missile was an enemy airplane. It happens a lot with the F16 in MP and its radar can't even track missiles, so there is no reason for the missiles to swap targets.

 

Aim120 iron dome_1.trk

 

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