reported AIM 120C Still easily defeatable

[Dragon1-1]

2 hours ago, OldIronsides said:

Soviet missiles should be failing about 60% of the time (at least that's what DoD estimates how their missiles are performing in Ukraine). More or less any soviet jet shooting a missile should need only but a flare or 2 to fool it and should probably all out fail a certain % of the time. 

Soviet missiles are, at this point, 30 years old. Maintained, to be sure, but this maintenance appears to have been of questionable quality (drinking in the missile shed doesn't count as maintaining the missiles, even if what you're drinking is missile antifreeze...). In their heyday, they wouldn't have been worse than US missiles of the time. Indeed, given that the "US missiles of the time" include the notoriously unreliable Sparrow, I'd say Soviet Fox 1s probably worked better back in the day. Sparrow vs. R-27R does not favor the NATO missile. 

We have combat data on those missiles, for example from Angola, Eritrea, Cuba, Iran-Iraq war and the Gulf War. Leaving aside quality of pilots using those, there was nothing wrong with the missiles themselves back then. Today we have countermeasures developed specifically to address those missiles, so it's no wonder they get spoofed. 

[OldIronsides]

33 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Soviet missiles are, at this point, 30 years old. Maintained, to be sure, but this maintenance appears to have been of questionable quality (drinking in the missile shed doesn't count as maintaining the missiles, even if what you're drinking is missile antifreeze...). In their heyday, they wouldn't have been worse than US missiles of the time. Indeed, given that the "US missiles of the time" include the notoriously unreliable Sparrow, I'd say Soviet Fox 1s probably worked better back in the day. Sparrow vs. R-27R does not favor the NATO missile. 

We have combat data on those missiles, for example from Angola, Eritrea, Cuba, Iran-Iraq war and the Gulf War. Leaving aside quality of pilots using those, there was nothing wrong with the missiles themselves back then. Today we have countermeasures developed specifically to address those missiles, so it's no wonder they get spoofed. 

 

Even their new kalibr cruise missile is having a high failure rate. 

Edited May 3, 2022 by OldIronsides

[okopanja]

7 hours ago, OldIronsides said:

U.S weapons tend to be understated on paper performance wise, while Soviet made weapons are overstated on paper.. The 120 should see a decent bump here and Soviet missiles should be failing about 60% of the time (at least that's what DoD estimates how their missiles are performing in Ukraine). More or less any soviet jet shooting a missile should need only but a flare or 2 to fool it and should probably all out fail a certain % of the time. 

Maybe a digression, but you should be aware that reliability IRL is never 100%. Estimates on unexploded NATO ordanance thrown in 1999 during agression on Yugoslavia range between 20-30%. They range from dumb ammunition, cluster bombs to antiradar and cruise missiles.

Years later these are still killing civilians every year.

Quite sure that DCS does not model quality factor.

Edited May 3, 2022 by okopanja

[Dragon1-1]

5 hours ago, OldIronsides said:

Even their new kalibr cruise missile is having a high failure rate. 

Again because of bad maintenance (doesn't matter if the missile is two years old, it does need regular checkups) and issues with pilot training (why fly if you can drink vodka with the guy who enters the flight hours?) that mean they probably don't know how to use them properly. Not to mention the distinct possibility of some of the pilots deliberately firing them out of parameters because they disagree with the war. We've seen that with the grunts, but I wouldn't be surprised if at least some of the officers thought the same.

Somehow, countries like India are perfectly capable of use the Russian-made equipment, including post-USSR stuff, effectively. If it was dodgy (either bad engineering or bad manufacturing), they'd find out pretty quick. This is evidence towards every issue Russia is having being people problems, not equipment problems.

[_SteelFalcon_]

Let‘s not derail this post also with red/blue stuff, pls…

[PatatOorlog]

In addition to this post, i would like everyone to also give some attention to this post made by Archer
 

Also please keep the topic on the current 120c problem, thats where this thread is made for (you know what to do)

- PatatOorlog

Edited May 3, 2022 by PatatOorlog
Stating that this is an 120c Bug Report, Not Soviet missiles

[okopanja]

7 hours ago, OldIronsides said:

Even their new kalibr cruise missile is having a high failure rate. 

It would be prudent to wait several years to be able to discern propaganda from facts. Spontaneous videos from civilians stopped after 3 days, majority of things you read/see are things both sides approve for publication.

[PatatOorlog]

Here is some testing we did yesterday. 
Tacview and TRK is included

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1B1qEvD64ADCamMZ9PByPbJxQuJHS-vTs?usp=sharing




Also please keep the topic on the current 120c problem, thats where this thread is made for.

[Moonshine]

lets not forget these posts that were created pretty much after the release of the new missile API. :

this one is even tagged as reported, no news since then:

then there is also these:

should be enough material in addition to what came up in the last 2 days...

[BIGNEWY]

thanks for the tracks. 

 

 

A reminder to all, to please stay on the topic of the thread. 

thanks

[okopanja]

@BIGNEWYI did not noticed the reduced performance on the receiving side (FC3), I would need to check with F-16, now that I finally got my VKB stick, but are the Radars/RWRs/missiles modeled differently for FC3 and FF modules? Reason for asking: I see majority post blue-on-blue fighters such as F-16/F-14/F-18.

[BIGNEWY]

5 minutes ago, okopanja said:

@BIGNEWYI did not noticed the reduced performance on the receiving side (FC3), I would need to check with F-16, now that I finally got my VKB stick, but are the Radars/RWRs/missiles modeled differently for FC3 and FF modules? Reason for asking: I see majority post blue-on-blue fighters such as F-16/F-14/F-18.

Same missiles

[okopanja]

12 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Same missiles

What about radars/rwr effects?

[BIGNEWY]

10 minutes ago, okopanja said:

What about radars/rwr effects?

We are going off topic now, same devices between the FC3 and high fidelity aircraft share the same values. If you think there is an issue please make a new thread. 

[DCS FIGHTER PILOT]

In addition to RWR's being too accurate in DCS currently, I would also like to bring up the fact that when an ARH missile is notched, it vanishes from the RWR allowing the defender to know that they have successfully notched the missile. Seeing as how the missiles radar would still be on, and that the target would still very likely be within its FOV, how is this possible? Is it because the missile is no longer "hard locking" the target or is this a bug? 

Edited May 4, 2022 by DCS FIGHTER PILOT

[okopanja]

7 hours ago, DCS FIGHTER PILOT said:

I would also like to bring up the fact that when an ARH missile is notched, it vanishes from the RWR allowing the defender to know that they have successfully notched the missile.

1. You are aware of blind zone for RWR? If flying 180 degree turn or split turn is used, the missile enters into blind zones.

2. If you are talking about level notch (aircraft flies almost straight, and missile paints from 90 degree) you should be detecting it as long as you get painted by the missile. The more time missile does not get update, the more likely you will exit its radar cone eventually, or simply run out of battery.  No signal -> no warning, unless the RWR itself has a prolonged warning time (e.g. to cover case 1 and its own update interval)

 

[Hobel]

22 minutes ago, okopanja said:

1. You are aware of blind zone for RWR? If flying 180 degree turn or split turn is used, the missile enters into blind zones.

2. If you are talking about level notch (aircraft flies almost straight, and missile paints from 90 degree) you should be detecting it as long as you get painted by the missile. The more time missile does not get update, the more likely you will exit its radar cone eventually, or simply run out of battery.  No signal -> no warning, unless the RWR itself has a prolonged warning time (e.g. to cover case 1 and its own update interval)

 

So if you hit the notch and the missile is not in a dead zone it will disappear from the RWR. 

 

It is at least in dcs

[_SteelFalcon_]

22 minutes ago, Hobel said:

So if you hit the notch and the missile is not in a dead zone it will disappear from the RWR. 

 

It is at least in dcs

not instantly. the beeper will stop, the M wont be flashing but still on your RWR for a little while and then it will disappear. here's an example: notice how the M is still on his EW page while he's roughly in the notch. it is not flashing. there is no beeping. it's notched, but the M is still on the EW page for a while

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by _SteelFalcon_
video reference

[Hobel]

23 minutes ago, _SteelFalcon_ said:

not instantly. the beeper will stop, the M wont be flashing but still on your RWR for a little while and then it will disappear. here's an example: notice how the M is still on his EW page while he's roughly in the notch. it is not flashing. there is no beeping. it's notched, but the M is still on the EW page for a while

 

 

Yes okay and that is also intended that nothing more flashes / beeps?  Although the rocket partly  still radiates accurately in their direction?

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Hobel

[Moonshine]

i mean, just because the missile doesnt see the target anymore (thats the notch for you), does not mean the RWR does not detect radar emmissions from the missiles radar. but i assume the frequency of a missile that is actively guiding is different from a missile that is searching (same with radar spikes or just nails), PRF changes and the RWR detects that, hence it knows if something is just looking or guiding. (im sure someone with more knowledge can explain that better than me lol)

[Hobel]

23 minutes ago, Moonshine said:

i mean, just because the missile doesnt see the target anymore (thats the notch for you), does not mean the RWR does not detect radar emmissions from the missiles radar. but i assume the frequency of a missile that is actively guiding is different from a missile that is searching (same with radar spikes or just nails), PRF changes and the RWR detects that, hence it knows if something is just looking or guiding. (im sure someone with more knowledge can explain that better than me lol)

 

Yes I see it similarly. And somehow you could also explain both.

Even if the missile has no more lock, it would have to search  and the RWR still recognizes this as a "danger/missle".

But which is now the case, no idea.

[comie1]

Some Trakcs to help.. Not all will be perfect but includes Persian map, Marianas, Normandy, Caucasus, Syria 

1 weird inverted.trk 2.trk 3.trk 4.trk 5.trk 6.trk 7.trk

8.trk 9.trk 10.trk 11.trk 12.trk 13.trk 14.trk

15.trk 16.trk 17.trk 18.trk 19.trk 20.trk

[okopanja]

1 hour ago, Hobel said:

Yes I see it similarly. And somehow you could also explain both.

Even if the missile has no more lock, it would have to search  and the RWR still recognizes this as a "danger/missle".

But which is now the case, no idea.

M could be still a memory, but does radar of the missile transmit still in CW while in notch and how long?

If in a notch, I suspect it will transmit for some time as before, the missile looses the track. I would expect it tries to require (scan within gimbal limits), which likely means RWR may get occasionally hit now, provided that target is still within scanning area.

Is this enough to still trigger RWR warning?

Edited May 4, 2022 by okopanja

[Moonshine]

Interesting topic, however to get back on track with this post, we should probably move the RWR discussion into a different part of the forum, as its not part of the amraam bugs

[dundun92]

 

Another reported issue, just as a reference to add to this thread