reported DCS F-16CM APG-68v5 look-down issues and also weird AIM-120C behavior

[Nuggetz]

I have been flying the F16 module for about 13-14 months and specialise in air to air missions almost exclusively. 
 

I am aware that other threads have been raised concerning the radar performance. Recently the radar performance appears to be worse with no white dot being displayed on the FCR MFD resulting in no lock on TMS up. The red symbol both hollow and solid is present, but no lock is obtainable in RWS. This is not 100% of the time or all altitudes etc. But when struggling to get a lock the inevitable shoot down happens leading to frustration.  There are times when you can see the target aircraft with your eyes against a clear sky background and the radar will still not lock.   Given I have thousands of air to air kills credited I do understand how the process of selecting and locking a target should work. 
 

Has something changed? I know I am not alone experiencing this problem as I have spoken to other F16 drivers via the Multiplayer Server this morning.  Is anyone else experiencing issues? 
 

I have no track file to offer due to size from the MP server (Stoneburner Grim Reapers). 
 

thanks in advance…
 

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Nuggetz

[BuzzU]

Does it do it in SP? Make a track there.

[Crptalk]

The latest open beta update introduced a few bugs to the radar. Datalink tracks sometimes get stuck and stop updating. TMS forward sometimes doesn't bug a track in TWS.

[Nuggetz]

Thanks for the replies. 
 

I did run a single player mission against two Mig29S after I posted the above and had no issues  so perhaps MP is a factor. I am currently exploring if carriage of the ECM pod is linked to the issues experienced. That said targets can be as little as 10-15 miles and I still get no lock with an ECM pod fitted. 

Each engagement was in RWS not  TWS so TWS is not a factor so far. 

Will update with more information if I discover anything more. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Nuggetz

[ACME_WIdgets]

I'm seeing this in MP (GS).  Almost always when I'm at angels 30-40k and hot target is below angels 15k.  I see the target on FCR at 40nm, then 30nm, then under 20nm and no lock possible (TMS right, up, reset down, radar on/off, etc.) . 

Maybe the radar is programmed to be confused by ground reflections (I think the F14 has this behavior, but I'm not sure)?
Maybe the FCR vertical scan is not right, coordinated with FCR, or below virtual gimbal limits, or ???

[Nuggetz]

Thank you for your reply and sharing your experience. 
 

I am not sure ground clutter is the dominant factor as I have experienced no lock with the target visible against a clear sky background where ground clutter was not a feature at all. 
 

Additionally, while engaging a Mig25 yesterday the radar could not detect the Mig at medium altitude in a mountainous region where the aircraft was clearly visible to the eye. Detection was achieved by the 9X sensor (no radar) once locked with the 9X and good tone I switched back to 120C and at that point the radar detected and locked the Mig25. 
 

I continue to investigate but I am convinced there are issues that require resolution. 
 

Updates to follow….

[SCPanda]

I was playing in the GS pvp sever yesterday. Radar seemed working fine for me since I got 5 pvp kills in a single sorty (all BVR engagements), but detenction range is ususally around 30 miles. Almost impossible to detect anything from 30-40 miles.  

[Dawgboy]

9 hours ago, Nuggetz said:

Thank you for your reply and sharing your experience. 
 

I am not sure ground clutter is the dominant factor as I have experienced no lock with the target visible against a clear sky background where ground clutter was not a feature at all. 
 

Additionally, while engaging a Mig25 yesterday the radar could not detect the Mig at medium altitude in a mountainous region where the aircraft was clearly visible to the eye. Detection was achieved by the 9X sensor (no radar) once locked with the 9X and good tone I switched back to 120C and at that point the radar detected and locked the Mig25. 
 

I continue to investigate but I am convinced there are issues that require resolution. 
 

Updates to follow….

BLUF:  There's still some quirkiness in the VIper radar.

@NuggetzSame here, but I wasn't carrying an ECM pod...just loaded A2A w/centerline bag, co-altitude at ~angels 22, targets 300-350kts.  I get explanations about the radar not being able to break out 4 Blackjack in tight formation, seeing them as one.  Even when the 4 Blackjack are spread visibly huge across my 10-2 line, the radar still doesn't see them as 4 targets.  Antenna elevation was good, scan volume was good, slow conversion to the rear, etc.; there was ample time for the radar to see all of them.  My live Hornet wingman never saw a single target in the formation, even though he had antenna elevation optimized, etc.  We flew it multiple times, and the same results each time.  Granted this was before the change to allow 4 Blackjack in a single group; however, 4 Blackjack should be 4 Blackjack to the radar, regardless of group setup in the Mission Editor.  

In a flight of 4 Fencer nearby in the same mission, I was able to break them out, although folks pointed out they were in a wider/loose formation compared with the Blackjack. 

I think I would agree with the explanation, EXCEPT, I had the Blackjack visual, clearly spread apart on my 10-2 line, me converting to a stern attack, and the radar still didn't see all four.

It was the same in MP and SP missions.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Dawgboy

[Nuggetz]

Thank you for your replies. At least some joint experience of similar problems does appear to exist. 
 

Further testing by me as follows:

SP MODE: I engaged 5 Migs (veteran level) at a co altitude of approx 25k feet and was able to lock, maintain lock and kill 4 from about 40 miles decreasing. The 5th bandit descended to 6k while I was at 25-20k alt lock was broken and did not re lock until less than 20 miles against the Syrian desert background. ECM Long fitted and active. 
 

MP STONEBURNER GR:

ECM LONG fitted and active  Lock obtained at 40 miles Mig25. F16 Lock broken, I descended into valley looked up to targets, solid red triangles visible in the FCR MFD, no white dots RWS Mode, but unable to reacquire lock  before being hit by incoming missile.

MP STONEBURNER GR:

Almost identical sortie profile against 2 x Mig 25, but no ECM POD fitted. As before F16 lock lost, but on descending into a valley and looking up I was able to reacquire lock in RWS Mode, solid red triangles visible in FCR MFD, albeit with a delay, but this time the result was two dead Migs.

I think I need to undertake more tests but am beginning to form the view the ECM POD is not worth carrying at least in MP for whatever reason. Too little evidence to form a firm conclusion so far, but that is what my gut is telling me.

more to follow when known….

 

 

[SCPanda]

10 hours ago, Nuggetz said:

Thank you for your replies. At least some joint experience of similar problems does appear to exist. 
 

Further testing by me as follows:

SP MODE: I engaged 5 Migs (veteran level) at a co altitude of approx 25k feet and was able to lock, maintain lock and kill 4 from about 40 miles decreasing. The 5th bandit descended to 6k while I was at 25-20k alt lock was broken and did not re lock until less than 20 miles against the Syrian desert background. ECM Long fitted and active. 
 

MP STONEBURNER GR:

ECM LONG fitted and active  Lock obtained at 40 miles Mig25. F16 Lock broken, I descended into valley looked up to targets, solid red triangles visible in the FCR MFD, no white dots RWS Mode, but unable to reacquire lock  before being hit by incoming missile.

MP STONEBURNER GR:

Almost identical sortie profile against 2 x Mig 25, but no ECM POD fitted. As before F16 lock lost, but on descending into a valley and looking up I was able to reacquire lock in RWS Mode, solid red triangles visible in FCR MFD, albeit with a delay, but this time the result was two dead Migs.

I think I need to undertake more tests but am beginning to form the view the ECM POD is not worth carrying at least in MP for whatever reason. Too little evidence to form a firm conclusion so far, but that is what my gut is telling me.

more to follow when known….

 

 

Read this. ECM pods with modes 1 and 2 seems bugged at the moment. 

 

[Nuggetz]

Yes thank you. I had seen at least some of these posts previously. I intend to fly all future sorties in both SP and MP, for a period of time, without any ECM pods to see if there appears to be a theme of radar performance or any short comings. 
 

I think it is fair to say that given the number of threads raised by different people that issues do indeed exist which require investigation. Two threads that I recall relate to ACM/ dogfighting with no lock issues or another where radar performance appeared better looking down (into the background clutter) vs looking up into clear sky where radar performance was less good which appears odd. 
 

Can I say to the ED guys I think your work is amazing and I am a massive fan of the F16 module, I can’t even begin to imagine how you do it. Given the F16 is still early access I am blown away with how comprehensive the module is, but the radar does appear to have short comings that detract from an otherwise exceptional piece of work. Thank you ED. 

[SCPanda]

2 hours ago, Nuggetz said:

Yes thank you. I had seen at least some of these posts previously. I intend to fly all future sorties in both SP and MP, for a period of time, without any ECM pods to see if there appears to be a theme of radar performance or any short comings. 
 

You can still bring the pod and use mode 3 active jamming. You won't be able to use your radar when it's transmitting but it can deny long range shots and mask your altitude and range before hostile radar can burn through your jammer. To use your radar just CMS right to switch the jammer off. I have been experimenting with this and I can confirm this works. 

[nuxil]

After playing some with the F16 i am disapointed. 

The radar on the F16 is just soo bugged when playing multiplayer.
The thing Is pure junk. 

I dont know whats up with this crap. even when tailing a enemy 10nm out and/or, In visual range. the radar does jack.. other times it works fine. 
Its like playing lotto using this thing.. "will it pickup enemys and lock or just screw you over" 

Please fix this as soon as possible. 
Only thing i really can use the F16 for is gound attacks. and for that i have a much more fun plane "A10" to do that.

[nuxil]

I did some simple test in the editor. "Not scientific in anyway". the issue was not really a problem there.
It seams like its an issue with multiplayer/server load.

If i play on a server with only a few people.  around 5 players. i do not really have an issue with the radar.
However if i play on a server with 30+ players on it. radar starts to have this issue.

To me it looks like some sort of networking issue going on. 
Have anyone else notice this/experianced this ?

 

Edited March 7, 2022 by nuxil

[TobiasA]

Yes, it feels that way. It works nice in single-player, but if I have trouble it is on multiplayer servers. 

I always uncage my heater to avoid losing sight prior to the merge so I can relock later. This is mostly present at low altitude, the radar is pretty much useless down there. But only sometimes. 

Especially noticeable on the growling sidewinder server, weird things happen on those crowded servers.

[Nuggetz]

I had hoped that the recent update would resolve issues that I experience with the radar and not being able to get and maintain a lock but problems continue. 

Most of the time when in SP mode or even against AIs in MP I can get a lock and a kill.  However when PvP in MP I struggle to get and maintain a lock. Some unusual behaviour includes: my opponent approaches at say 40 miles but the FCR indicates a red hallow triangle with a couple of yellow chevrons at the top of the FCR MFD. I can TMS up and get a lock at an indicated “160 miles” apparently the FCR and target stays locked at 160 miles, but the HUD symbology is not presented with range information. Despite the bandit actual being no more than 40 miles away. Suddenly the FCR range reduces to the 40 mile bracket and the HUD presents the appropriate information. Clearly things are happening differently to how I would expect and differently to SP. 

Are others continuing to experience FCR issues beyond the recent update?

 

I would add that I do love the improvements made to the F16 performance model and G effects which have transformed the aircraft into the beast it should have always been, so thank you ED. 
 

 

Edited March 20, 2022 by Nuggetz

[Moonshine]

The jump to 160nm happens when the contact is jamming (idnicated by the yellow chevrons)

 

other than that there are currently some bugs in terms of lost contacts being stuck on the HSD (when using RWS) and some things wrong with TWS

Edited March 20, 2022 by Moonshine

[Nuggetz]

Thank you for the response which makes sense ie as we get closer the bandit ECM is overcome by the F16 radar and then the jump to the 40 mile scale. Regards

[Davee]

17 hours ago, Nuggetz said:

I had hoped that the recent update would resolve issues that I experience with the radar and not being able to get and maintain a lock but problems continue. 

Most of the time when in SP mode or even against AIs in MP I can get a lock and a kill.  However when PvP in MP I struggle to get and maintain a lock. Some unusual behaviour includes: my opponent approaches at say 40 miles but the FCR indicates a red hallow triangle with a couple of yellow chevrons at the top of the FCR MFD. I can TMS up and get a lock at an indicated “160 miles” apparently the FCR and target stays locked at 160 miles, but the HUD symbology is not presented with range information. Despite the bandit actual being no more than 40 miles away. Suddenly the FCR range reduces to the 40 mile bracket and the HUD presents the appropriate information. Clearly things are happening differently to how I would expect and differently to SP. 

Are others continuing to experience FCR issues beyond the recent update?

 

I would add that I do love the improvements made to the F16 performance model and G effects which have transformed the aircraft into the beast it should have always been, so thank you ED. 
 

Yes, I have been struggling for sometime with a custom mission F-16 in the Caucuses. Four large TU-142 in a direct approach at 30,000 ft. AWACS shows the red hollow triangles and direction. But I cannot get a lock all the way in to the point they pass by visually under me. I change all the parameters I can to achieve a lock. But no lock. Sometimes I will get a yellow block on one but cannot lock the others in the 4 ship formation. I have ECM disabled on my ship. I do understand the operation of the radar so I'm stumped. I too am in the camp of some kind of radar bug.  I will continue to modify the mission with different aircraft.

 

 

[Nuggetz]

I will be delighted to provide a Track file but the size of MP files exceeds the allowable limit. See the opening post. 
 

I am astonished that you are unable to reproduce the issue as it is well known amongst experienced F16 drivers especially in MP PvP engagements. Additionally, problems arise with AI engagements less frequently. Today I engaged AI 2x B52 with 2 x Mirage 2000 escorts in the GR Stoneburner Server. All 4 aircraft were clearly visible to the eye (in VR) under 15 miles. The B52 provided a radar return (no big surprise) but the Mirage 2000 were undetected. I also did some PvP against 2 other F16s and all three of us experienced BVR lock and especially RELOCK/DETECTION issues progressing to the merge despite getting an initial lock at 40 miles. 
 

I had hoped the recent update would correct this alas, no. There are a number of radar problem related threads in the forum suggesting apparent radar issues exist. Can I suggest you seek feedback from some of your trusted DCS F16 operators if you are unable to reproduce without extensive testing. 
 

Please believe me when I tell you that I fly the F16 module exclusively up to 8 hours a day and frequently encounter these issues so you will understand that the unable to reproduce response is exasperating. 
 

On the positive side the “LOCK” feature recently provided has improved matters when engaged in ACM. Thank you. 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Nuggetz

[Tango3B]

Unfortunately, after today's patch 2.7.12.23362, various problems with the APG-68v5 and the ability to lock onto low-flying targets (a MiG-29 in this case) have also surfaced. The ability to lock onto a low-flying target with your own aircraft at medium altitude appears to be reduced by almost 50% (target cannot be bugged before roughly 20nm range). Weird thing is you can clearly see the radar already "sees" the target at a much greater range but you simply cannot not bug the target until you are at around 20nm range. Apologies for my language, but this is just plain ridiculous, as it has been explained numerous times and amply enough why this should not be the case when looking at a modern pulse-doppler radar like the APG-68v5 or the APG-73 and instead of an improvement in this patch, we're apparently getting an even more drastic increase of the infamous "look-down penalty". In addition, the AMRAAM apparently now also seems to have serious problems hitting low-flying targets under otherwise largely ideal parameters. This can also be seen quite clearly in my track and the attached video. I'm afraid that, despite a really good approach in this patch, there is still a lot of work to be done here. Please take a look at my attached track and I have also attached two YT clips to showcase the problem more graphically.

vid 1  https://youtu.be/65NsUQyCKe0

vid 2 https://youtu.be/LH2UXreWmQA

 

F-16CM APG-68v5 look-down problem.trk

Edited April 28, 2022 by Tango3B

[Moonshine]

This. Can get radar returns (bricks) but cant bug for a long time as described above.

[Koozie]

This is also being reported internally.  Just so you guys know. 

[_SteelFalcon_]

9 minutes ago, Koozie said:

This is also being reported internally.  Just so you guys know. 

Thanks for letting us know!

[Tango3B]

2 hours ago, Koozie said:

This is also being reported internally.  Just so you guys know. 

 @Koozie Thanks for the information, Koozie. One thing to add to my list of potential bugs mentioned above and this is directly related to the AIM-120C5 performance. This might have to go into the weapon bugs section but I don´t know if this is only related to shots from the F-16. Ok, so in one of the above YT clips you can see me using a certain tactic shooting an AIM-120C5 at my target at quite a large angle off (35-40 degrees off my nose) from around 5.5nm, thereby gaining a significant angular advantage for any evasive maneuver on my part. It´s a legitimate and working tactic, by the way. I actually tried this several times, now and noticed that with our new patch most AIM-120Cs fired under these conditions are not even guiding on the bugged target whereas before the patch this tactic normally worked. I am currently not at home so I can´t provide you guys with any TACVIEW files but there is definitely something wrong with the guidance logic as the missile just seems to fly straight out without doing anything. Sure, the missile should have some room to maneuver but 5.5 nm is certainly enough (2 - 2.5nm should be enough) to recieve DL information and make the turn to the target. Can you please also look into these guidance problems and forward this stuff to the team? I´m home on Monday and then I will try to add some TACVIEW files to show what I mean.

 

@Koozie **EDIT** Also, at 3:08 in YT clip 1 when I switch to DGFT mode my AIM-9X should go to AUTO COOL. It stays at WARM, though. New, potential bug. Please check.

 

Edited April 29, 2022 by Tango3B