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F16 TMS UP intermittently working in RWS - End of April 2022 Update


Capoti

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Since update at the end of April, F16 radar in RWS is extremely difficult to enter plots into RWS. TMS UP seems to be broken and multiple attempts are required to enter a radar plot into RWS. This results in very short range tracking, even though the contact was present from the normal range. So, the radar picks up contacts as before, but it is very difficult to get them into RWS

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Track Attached. as you can see, i am spamming TMS UP as soon as i get radar return, but cant get anything to bug for a long time. then within 20nm it finally works, so im trying to lock the second guy up in DTT, same issue, cant get him hooked. 

im happy with the DL contact finally not being stuck anymore but with a radar like this where you now cant even lock something up within useful ranges, it is arguably even more useless. sorry for the harsh wording, been a while that the Vipers radar is a pain to work with.

RWS_Bugging_Contact_issue.trk

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2 hours ago, Capoti said:

Since update at the end of April, F16 radar in RWS is extremely difficult to enter plots into RWS. TMS UP seems to be broken and multiple attempts are required to enter a radar plot into RWS. This results in very short range tracking, even though the contact was present from the normal range. So, the radar picks up contacts as before, but it is very difficult to get them into RWS

Capoti, is, in your opinion, what you are seeing the issue kind or like the issue described in my thread: "DCS F-16CM APG-68v5 look-down issues and also weird AIM-120C behavior?" If so, we can merge these two threads because there is an issue.

**And yes, by any means please try to include a track and/or a vid backing your bug in the future. Only then is ED able to take care of your issue and/or understand what you are tying to tell them. This is really crucial...**

1 hour ago, NineLine said:

The track looked ok here, track range is going to be less than initial detection range, you got a track at the expected range.

No, it didn´t. And 9L, please have a look at the "APG-68v5 look down issue" thread which I started yesterday and you´ll see what he means. This is actually a very seriuos and sadly a very big issue. If you guys need someone who can provide you with his professional opinion than feel free to contact me. I try to help where I can but this is definitely not right. I have a Typhoon background, by the way and "some" F-16 experience. Just so you know.


Edited by Tango3B
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  • ED Team
24 minutes ago, SchumiF399 said:

Is this really working as intended? I'm having trouble locking high altitude contacts at 20-30miles. My FCR shows a SOLID RED DL contact overlaying a smaller WHITE square. TMS up and nothing happens! 

 

Please make a short as possible track replay showing the issue. 

thanks

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31 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Please make a short as possible track replay showing the issue. 

thanks

added track. as you can see, the red DL contact is filled out (so my own ship radar has contact) at around the 40nm range (this seems reasonable), and the brick is visible below the red contact..weird that one.
then i try to bug it with no chance for a solid 5 seconds, only getting a bug when the target gets within 32nm. multiple people have now reported the same issue in various posts, most notably this one: 

in the track as well as the videos of the linked post you can observe the same issue very clearly. Video 1 of the above linked post at the 1min mark for example.

 

RWS_Bugging_Contact_issue_2.trk

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28 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Please make a short as possible track replay showing the issue. 

thanks

Ok, here is a multiplayer track file (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XAPqSU5id5tDnBTjfwux0I_YMT5FdV-8/view?usp=sharing). I am unsure on how to shorten it. On my very first attempt at engaging a target I keep trying to lock the first target, I keep messing with radar elevation and azimuth. I end up locking the friendly. Not quite the high altitude scenario I described in my earlier post but I think I am well within range to obtain a lock. I think even the radar elevation bugged out as I had to tms right and go into TWS to get it back to normal. Anything after me crashing the jet into the mountain isn't worth seeing. (Shows how poorly I fly) 

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You should be able to get a lock and track the target as soon as the FCR shows you a brick. By the time it shows you a brick, it's already detected it and done the math to filter it out from clutter.

ED is right... Track range is not the same as detection range.... But from the point of view of the pilot, it is. They need to fix this, and I'm sure they will when someone with some authority looks at it.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

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Dances, PhD

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9 hours ago, TheBigTatanka said:

You should be able to get a lock and track the target as soon as the FCR shows you a brick. By the time it shows you a brick, it's already detected it and done the math to filter it out from clutter.

ED is right... Track range is not the same as detection range.... But from the point of view of the pilot, it is. They need to fix this, and I'm sure they will when someone with some authority looks at it.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
 

That pretty much sums it up. It feels completely off and at first thought my TMS up stopped working. Glad I am not the only one who noticed this.

 

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15 hours ago, TheBigTatanka said:

You should be able to get a lock and track the target as soon as the FCR shows you a brick. By the time it shows you a brick, it's already detected it and done the math to filter it out from clutter.

ED is right... Track range is not the same as detection range.... But from the point of view of the pilot, it is. They need to fix this, and I'm sure they will when someone with some authority looks at it.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
 

This is not true. A contact is inferior info to a track.

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Fredderf, you're not understanding this, and I'm not sure I can explain it any better without violating forum and other rules. If you have access to current employment manuals on the jet, look at the minimum-lock-criteria section. You can 100% lock onto a single history (brick).

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Dances, PhD

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  • ED Team
56 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

For example SD-10 missile from JF-17 is on half way to F-16 when F-16 can only lock it up. Not normal. And besides, DCS`s F-16 is from 200 right? So it how come it has (V)5 radar? It should be having (V)9 https://www.deagel.com/Sensor Systems/ANAPG-68/a001560

Are you exaggerating a little here with the SD-10 range? if not would love to see a track replay in a new thread. 


From what I understand most Vipers were v5 at that point only a few v9 

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While prior to the latest patch you couldnt bug anything in TWS for a very long time despite having contacts promoted, therefore solid tracks, it seems that the same functionality has been moved over to RWS. At least dont label this post as „correct as is“ if clearly it isnt. Along multiple posts people have been sending in tracks and even PMs highlighting the issue at hand, as reported here as well. I doubt there would be so much attention on the formus all around to this topic if it were a minor issue.

Again i want to reference to this post, as it highlights the same issue; 

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/299740-dcs-f-16cm-apg-68v5-look-down-issues-and-also-weird-aim-120c-behavior/

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I just experienced another oddity with TMS up in the ground radar,  maybe something is amiss with tms up….


Edited by rcjonessnp175

I7 4770k @ 4.6, sli 980 evga oc edition, ssdx2, Sony 55 inch edid hack nvidia 3dvision. Volair sim pit, DK2 Oculus Rift.

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I have 2 questions for @NineLine and @BIGNEWY, but I have to set it up first... We all know that before this patch we could lock up a target in RWS the moment the radar detected the contact. Unless I am missing something, this has been a given (A2A radar logic 101 for those who have cared to learn) for as long as I have been flying in DCS (4 years now). Obviously, that has now changed for the Viper in this new patch, but I see that you guys have labeled this issue as "correct as is".

Question 1: Given the fact that this is a pretty big change in A2A radar logic, why was it left out of the F-16 section of the changelog?

Also, this is quite the change in BVR workflow in the Viper when committing on a bandit given that an entirely new parameter has been introduced: a delay between a contact appearing on radar and the distance and/or time afterwards to where you can lock that contact up on radar.

Question 2: Why hasn't this new parameter in Viper BVR workflow been introduced and explained in a tutorial?

Conclusion: If this is correct as is, then this entire bug thread constitutes a failure to communicate on your/ED's part. Can you guys please not leave future changes like this unaddressed? 

Thank you.


Edited by Fropa
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Hi

all my F16 team noticed there is a big change in RWS locking target behaviour. We were able to directly bug a brick before patch, it's no more the case in a lot of situations. It's hard to correclty report the bug because of the current DCS track system.

And with this bug/problem/modification, F16 became very bad in BVR, as we can't bug and fire a fox3 during a few seconds after brick is on the target...

 

edit : in TWS, we still can bug all target direclty when they come as a brick

 


Edited by dureiken
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