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Pitch, roll and yaw mapping.


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Short version of the question. The long version may follow later.

When the pitch, roll and yaw are mapped to the HOTAS axis does that disable the keyboard mappings?

The UH1 and Mi-8 does not disable the keyboard mapping and both or either can be used to fly the chopper.

MSI Z490 Tomahawk, I5-11600kf, 2X512GB NvME, RTX4090, 32GB DDR4 3200, Reverb G2, T50-CM2, OpenXR

31st TFW, 14th MAS, 9th ARS

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1 hour ago, RackMonkey said:

When the pitch, roll and yaw are mapped to the HOTAS axis does that disable the keyboard mappings?

No. Each input device is configured separately. Mulitple devices can be used side by side. Just make sure that there are no conflicts - that counts especially for axis bindings.

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[Modules] A-10C, A-10C II, AH-64D, F-14A/B, F-16C, F/A-18C, FC3, Ka-50, P-51D, UH-1H, CA, SC
[Maps] PG, NTTR, Normandy, Sinai, Syria, TC

[OS] Windows 11 Pro
[PC] MSI Pro Z790-A, i9-13900K, 64 GB DDR5-5200, RTX 4090 24 GB GDDR6X, 2 x SSD 990 PRO 2 TB (M.2), Corsair 5000D Airflow, HX1500i, H150i RGB Elite, Acer X28, TM HOTAS Warthog (Grip@WarBRD Base), MS SW FFB2, Thrustmaster TFRP, TrackIR 5 & TrackClip Pro
[Checklists] A-10C, F-16C, F/A-18C, AH-64D, Ka-50, UH-1H

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OK, then after reading the rest of this I hope somebody has some suggestions that I might try.

The YAW works as I expect it to. On screen both the axis inputs move the peddles and the Z and X keys on the keyboard move the peddles as they should. Both are mapped at the same time.

In the pitch and roll, if I have the axis mapped, only the stick will move the controls. If I watch the screen closely and I try to move the stick using the keyboard the stick does move, but it is only a little wiggle that can barely be seen. If I remove the axis mapping for pitch and roll then the keyboard will move the stick the way you would expect it to when trying to fly. 

MSI Z490 Tomahawk, I5-11600kf, 2X512GB NvME, RTX4090, 32GB DDR4 3200, Reverb G2, T50-CM2, OpenXR

31st TFW, 14th MAS, 9th ARS

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Dumb question - if you have pitch and roll mapped to your stick axis, why would you use the keyboard?

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Don B

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Not a dumb question but the use is unorthodox. I use them for "trim".

I map the fore and aft trim hat to keyboard pitch and the roll left and right to keyboard yaw. 

In the Mi-8 I find the keyboard movements a bit gross but within usable limits. I set the collective to max continues and tap the trim hat forward until I start descending. Trim back one tap and I start climbing, then reduce the collective just enough for level flight. This is far easier than the snap and jerk system that ED has.

I only wish that the input of one tap on the keyboard could be reduced so that the trim hat would be smoother. 

MSI Z490 Tomahawk, I5-11600kf, 2X512GB NvME, RTX4090, 32GB DDR4 3200, Reverb G2, T50-CM2, OpenXR

31st TFW, 14th MAS, 9th ARS

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27 minutes ago, RackMonkey said:

Not a dumb question but the use is unorthodox. I use them for "trim".

To fly the AH-64D without issues you shouldn't bind the axis commands/bindings "Cyclic Pitch" and "Cyclic Roll" simultaneously to your stick (which provides real axis inputs) and keyboard (which delivers only a on/off-state). That's the reason for the described input conflicts.

If you wanna trim the AH-64D correctly (and as real as possible in DCS) you should use

  1. your stick to bring the Apache in the desired attitude and
  2. the binding for "Force Trim/Hold Mode Switch - R/Up", which "locks" the virtual stick in your current positon.

...and don't forget to clear your keyboard bindings from the section axis commands.

In the "Special" options tab for the AH-64D you can change the settings for "CYCLIC TRIMMER MODE" and "PEDALS TRIMMER MODE" to your preferences.

I'm happy with the settings "Central Trimmer Position Mode" and "Pedals without Springs and FFB". I fly with my TM HOTAS WARTHOG Stick@WarBRD Base and TM TFRP.


Edited by AstonMartinDBS

[Modules] A-10C, A-10C II, AH-64D, F-14A/B, F-16C, F/A-18C, FC3, Ka-50, P-51D, UH-1H, CA, SC
[Maps] PG, NTTR, Normandy, Sinai, Syria, TC

[OS] Windows 11 Pro
[PC] MSI Pro Z790-A, i9-13900K, 64 GB DDR5-5200, RTX 4090 24 GB GDDR6X, 2 x SSD 990 PRO 2 TB (M.2), Corsair 5000D Airflow, HX1500i, H150i RGB Elite, Acer X28, TM HOTAS Warthog (Grip@WarBRD Base), MS SW FFB2, Thrustmaster TFRP, TrackIR 5 & TrackClip Pro
[Checklists] A-10C, F-16C, F/A-18C, AH-64D, Ka-50, UH-1H

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I'm going to ignore your response since it has nothing to do with the original post and you making the assumption that I don't know what I'm doing. I was just answering dburne's question of why I wanted to do it, not asking how you think it "should be" done.

By the way, my solution to ED's screwy trim system works perfectly on the Huey and Mi-8. The yaw part of the trim even works on the Apache. And it's far less confusing. 

MSI Z490 Tomahawk, I5-11600kf, 2X512GB NvME, RTX4090, 32GB DDR4 3200, Reverb G2, T50-CM2, OpenXR

31st TFW, 14th MAS, 9th ARS

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So, so coming back to actual question and leaving the facetious comments behind us, you say the stick is causing issue with keyboard inputs, right? 

If so, it's possible that the stick's input value is jumping slightly, meaning that when you try to make a keyboard input the sim always gets a stick input a ms or so later. If I just touch my stick I can see the input values change by 1 or 2 points, not enough to affect my flying but this would end up bringing any keyboard input that you've made back to center. That would definitely explain why you're getting "only a little wiggle that can barely be seen" since the stick is constantly pulling back to neutral. Do you have a deadzone set?

That's all I can think of for now.

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20 minutes ago, RackMonkey said:

I'm going to ignore your response since it has nothing to do with the original post

Your initial post contained the phrase

On 4/30/2022 at 5:41 PM, RackMonkey said:

The long version may follow later.

so I've assumed, this

1 hour ago, RackMonkey said:

I use them for "trim".

I map the fore and aft trim hat to keyboard pitch and the roll left and right to keyboard yaw. 

In the Mi-8 I find the keyboard movements a bit gross but within usable limits. I set the collective to max continues and tap the trim hat forward until I start descending. Trim back one tap and I start climbing, then reduce the collective just enough for level flight. This is far easier than the snap and jerk system that ED has.

I only wish that the input of one tap on the keyboard could be reduced so that the trim hat would be smoother.

was your announced "long version". Sorry for my misinterpretion. I've just tried to help solving your problem and I see no reason for such useless comments:

24 minutes ago, RackMonkey said:

I'm going to ignore your response since it has nothing to do with the original post and you making the assumption that I don't know what I'm doing. I was just answering dburne's question of why I wanted to do it, not asking how you think it "should be" done.

 

So if you want to avoid wrong assumptions from other community members define your problem and goal clear.

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[Modules] A-10C, A-10C II, AH-64D, F-14A/B, F-16C, F/A-18C, FC3, Ka-50, P-51D, UH-1H, CA, SC
[Maps] PG, NTTR, Normandy, Sinai, Syria, TC

[OS] Windows 11 Pro
[PC] MSI Pro Z790-A, i9-13900K, 64 GB DDR5-5200, RTX 4090 24 GB GDDR6X, 2 x SSD 990 PRO 2 TB (M.2), Corsair 5000D Airflow, HX1500i, H150i RGB Elite, Acer X28, TM HOTAS Warthog (Grip@WarBRD Base), MS SW FFB2, Thrustmaster TFRP, TrackIR 5 & TrackClip Pro
[Checklists] A-10C, F-16C, F/A-18C, AH-64D, Ka-50, UH-1H

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While I can see the smallest of wiggles on the stick when I try to use the keyboard for pitch and roll its a little more like the keyboard inputs have been disabled when an axis has been assigned to it. EXCEPT that the yaw works fine. My rudder peddles are mapped to the yaw axis and the Z and X keys are also mapped to the yaw. The keyboard yaw function is also mapped to the left and right hat switch on my stick and it works. It is not disabled because of the multi mapping.

What's confusing is that my trim system works on the Huey and Mi-8 on all three axis without any problems. I'm wondering if the programing has changed or maybe somebody has made a small boo-boo when they coded how this should be handled since the one axis works and the other two don't. I was thinking that this is so basic to all thing that fly that this section of the code would just be a copy and paste from the other choppers.  

MSI Z490 Tomahawk, I5-11600kf, 2X512GB NvME, RTX4090, 32GB DDR4 3200, Reverb G2, T50-CM2, OpenXR

31st TFW, 14th MAS, 9th ARS

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You're assumption of copy paste is probably true for the Huey and the Hip (and the Hind). But I believe the Apache had their own team.

If I understand you correctly I rather think you've found an exploit in the Hip and the Huey, because I don't think it should be technically possible. By I've never tried flying helicopters in DCS with a keyboard. 

You're saying you're basically using your physical trim hat as the cyclic forward/aft and torque pedals too? And this works in the Hip and Huey without using the cyclic trim button, and the cyclic doesn't move back to trimmed centre? Strange, unless I'm missing something. 

As for the Apache, it has a different type of "autopilot" system, so I guess that's why. You are fighting axis you know? And you have selected the third trim option for the pedals, so I guess that's why you don't have an issue there. 

As for the Hip, I think the trim hat now actually works as in the Hind. And you should rather trim with the autopilot function dials. When you learn that it's pretty neat. Easy when you bring up the controls indicator.

Apologies if I completely misunderstand you. 

Cheers! 

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25 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

You're assumption of copy paste is probably true for the Huey and the Hip (and the Hind). But I believe the Apache had their own team.

Your probably right. I'm just throwing ideas against the wall to see what sticks.

If I understand you correctly I rather think you've found an exploit in the Hip and the Huey, because I don't think it should be technically possible. By I've never tried flying helicopters in DCS with a keyboard. 

You're saying you're basically using your physical trim hat as the cyclic forward/aft and torque pedals too? And this works in the Hip and Huey without using the cyclic trim button, and the cyclic doesn't move back to trimmed centre? Strange, unless I'm missing something. 

As for the Apache, it has a different type of "autopilot" system, so I guess that's why. You are fighting axis you know? And you have selected the third trim option for the pedals, so I guess that's why you don't have an issue there. 

Not until just today. I've had them in "central position trimmer mode" for the last year.

As for the Hip, I think the trim hat now actually works as in the Hind. And you should rather trim with the autopilot function dials. When you learn that it's pretty neat. Easy when you bring up the controls indicator.

Apologies if I completely misunderstand you. 

Cheers! 

Think of it this way. The trim system is like a Cessna might have. Using the hat switch to move the center point of the control stick. Not really to far away from the current "central position trimmer mode" currently used. With one major exception...the movement of that center position is slower and smoother and there is no loss of flight control while you remember to center your stick.

I suggest that if you still don't understand. Give it a try on any of the choppers you might have. Remap one of your hat switches to the keyboard pitch and yaw, leaving your axis binds in place, and see if the stick and rudder in the cockpit move. In the Huey and Hip all three should work. In the Apache only the yaw should work...at least until you clear the axis binds for pitch and roll. I would really be interested to see what you find out.

 

MSI Z490 Tomahawk, I5-11600kf, 2X512GB NvME, RTX4090, 32GB DDR4 3200, Reverb G2, T50-CM2, OpenXR

31st TFW, 14th MAS, 9th ARS

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Cool, I did understand you actually. Just didn't expect it to work. I guess it has to do with that I've always hated the central position trimming, so I never used it. Was always using the first option without any issues, and now I have FFB too, so trimming is just super natural.
I must humbly decline your suggestion to test it, as it won't fit my setup. I have FFB, collective and non-centering pedals.
Like I wrote, the Hind has a trim hat, and I believe it now also work in the Hip, and except for yaw it seems like what you're after. (Forgot about the Gazelle, but I never trim it anyway). Hopefully it seems ED will implement virtual microswitches in pedals, so I will mod my mine later if they do.
In the Huey I just turn off the force trim while flying.
I still believe that your way of doing it this way won't work in the Apache, due to different autopilot logic. But what do I know. Maybe it will work later in EA.
I cross my fingers for you, it's an interesting take on it.



Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

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Your the first person I've run into with an FFB stick. I'd like to have one to play with just to see. Maybe somebody else that hates the current trim system as much as I do will give it a try and let me know what they think of my solution. 


Edited by RackMonkey

MSI Z490 Tomahawk, I5-11600kf, 2X512GB NvME, RTX4090, 32GB DDR4 3200, Reverb G2, T50-CM2, OpenXR

31st TFW, 14th MAS, 9th ARS

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Your the first person I've run into with an FFB stick. I'd like to have one to play with just to see. Maybe somebody else that hates the current trim system as much as I do will give it a try and let me know what they think of my solution. 
I have five, all bought second hand from free to USD 65 here in Norway the past three years.
There are other options on this forum. Some guy is taking pre-order for a DIY kit now.
Cheers!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

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