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A new mod system


Tank50us

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So, I got to thinking a little bit ago (hey, my job is boring ok?), and I was thinking about a new way ED could support the mod community.

It starts with creating a nexus. This special server contains and categorizes the mods people put on it, and even attaches a serial number to it (and gives it to the mods maker for updates). Downloads can either be done manually through the website (like we do already), or you can go into a 'mod shop' in the game. When a player goes through this, they can then just click download, and the mod will be downloaded and placed in the correct folder. Once this is done, the game will ask if you wish to restart. Done correctly, they could even add a 'cart' feature here so that you can download multiple mods at once, and only do one reboot rather than potentially dozens.

When a player downloads the mod, for the sake of argument we'll say the mod is a Rafale, the game, on launching, will check the mod with the server to see if there's been any updates to that mod since you last opened DCS. If there's none, nothing happens, and you play as normal. If there is, it alerts the player "Rafale Mod has been updated, would you like to download this update?" and your options would be yes, no, or view patch notes. If you view the patch notes, the dialog box will remain where it is, so that once you finish with the notes, you'll be ready to download if needed. Once you click yes, it updates the mod, and prompts a restart.

The next part of this goes to the mod creator. ED could create a mod maker style program. Not really an SDK, but just a small program that makes things a little easier on those with the mods or those without. Basically, this program handles the uploads and a couple final code items that gets installed with the mod itself. When you are 'preparing' the mod, again we'll use the Rafale, the program will prompt you to choose an alternate. This alternate refers to an existing model in the game itself, and you get to choose the most appropriate model to represent your mod in the event someone doesn't have the mod on a server that doesn't force the mod. This would also apply to any weapons the mod has. I'm fairly certain that in this instance, people would rather see a Mirage 2000 with maybe a couple AMRAAMs and JSOWs playing a Rafale rather than a completely unarmed and funky looking Su27.

On the server side, the server host could either require the mod (in which case the previous paragraph has no use), or not to require it. Now, if the miz file on the server has mods under this system, those that have the mods downloaded will see, and be able to pilot/drive the unit in question. Obviously those without the mod, will see the chosen supplement.

What do you guys think? I know I'm not the best at conveying some of my ideas, but I think this would be a better system than we have now.

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33 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

So, I got to thinking a little bit ago (hey, my job is boring ok?), and I was thinking about a new way ED could support the mod community.

It starts with creating a nexus. This special server contains and categorizes the mods people put on it, and even attaches a serial number to it (and gives it to the mods maker for updates). Downloads can either be done manually through the website (like we do already), or you can go into a 'mod shop' in the game. When a player goes through this, they can then just click download, and the mod will be downloaded and placed in the correct folder. Once this is done, the game will ask if you wish to restart. Done correctly, they could even add a 'cart' feature here so that you can download multiple mods at once, and only do one reboot rather than potentially dozens.

When a player downloads the mod, for the sake of argument we'll say the mod is a Rafale, the game, on launching, will check the mod with the server to see if there's been any updates to that mod since you last opened DCS. If there's none, nothing happens, and you play as normal. If there is, it alerts the player "Rafale Mod has been updated, would you like to download this update?" and your options would be yes, no, or view patch notes. If you view the patch notes, the dialog box will remain where it is, so that once you finish with the notes, you'll be ready to download if needed. Once you click yes, it updates the mod, and prompts a restart.

I'd love to see something like this, I'd also give DCS the ability to check a mod for an update. For example if a new version of the Rafale gets released we'll see some sort of an update. Notification. It should at least be part of the download tool.

33 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

The next part of this goes to the mod creator. ED could create a mod maker style program. Not really an SDK, but just a small program that makes things a little easier on those with the mods or those without.

I understand the reason Eagle is reluctant to release an SDK but I can also see the benefits to having more and better mod tools.  

33 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

Basically, this program handles the uploads and a couple final code items that gets installed with the mod itself. When you are 'preparing' the mod, again we'll use the Rafale, the program will prompt you to choose an alternate. This alternate refers to an existing model in the game itself, and you get to choose the most appropriate model to represent your mod in the event someone doesn't have the mod on a server that doesn't force the mod. This would also apply to any weapons the mod has. I'm fairly certain that in this instance, people would rather see a Mirage 2000 with maybe a couple AMRAAMs and JSOWs playing a Rafale rather than a completely unarmed and funky looking Su27.

I've asked for the ability to select an alternate model as well. 

33 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

On the server side, the server host could either require the mod (in which case the previous paragraph has no use), or not to require it. Now, if the miz file on the server has mods under this system, those that have the mods downloaded will see, and be able to pilot/drive the unit in question. Obviously those without the mod, will see the chosen supplement.

What do you guys think? I know I'm not the best at conveying some of my ideas, but I think this would be a better system than we have now.

I figure in cases where the mod is required that the player should have the option to download the mod if they don't have it.

Some other ideas I would like to see as well. 

  • Add a line in the mod LAU file for service dates. This would make it possible to build historical mission with mods.
  • classify ships and ground vehicles by type. For example we might label the Iowas or Bismark as battlecruisers until we get a battleship in DCS core 
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1 hour ago, Tank50us said:

So, I got to thinking a little bit ago (hey, my job is boring ok?), and I was thinking about a new way ED could support the mod community.

It starts with creating a nexus. This special server contains and categorizes the mods people put on it, and even attaches a serial number to it (and gives it to the mods maker for updates). Downloads can either be done manually through the website (like we do already), or you can go into a 'mod shop' in the game. When a player goes through this, they can then just click download, and the mod will be downloaded and placed in the correct folder. Once this is done, the game will ask if you wish to restart. Done correctly, they could even add a 'cart' feature here so that you can download multiple mods at once, and only do one reboot rather than potentially dozens.

When a player downloads the mod, for the sake of argument we'll say the mod is a Rafale, the game, on launching, will check the mod with the server to see if there's been any updates to that mod since you last opened DCS. If there's none, nothing happens, and you play as normal. If there is, it alerts the player "Rafale Mod has been updated, would you like to download this update?" and your options would be yes, no, or view patch notes. If you view the patch notes, the dialog box will remain where it is, so that once you finish with the notes, you'll be ready to download if needed. Once you click yes, it updates the mod, and prompts a restart.

The next part of this goes to the mod creator. ED could create a mod maker style program. Not really an SDK, but just a small program that makes things a little easier on those with the mods or those without. Basically, this program handles the uploads and a couple final code items that gets installed with the mod itself. When you are 'preparing' the mod, again we'll use the Rafale, the program will prompt you to choose an alternate. This alternate refers to an existing model in the game itself, and you get to choose the most appropriate model to represent your mod in the event someone doesn't have the mod on a server that doesn't force the mod. This would also apply to any weapons the mod has. I'm fairly certain that in this instance, people would rather see a Mirage 2000 with maybe a couple AMRAAMs and JSOWs playing a Rafale rather than a completely unarmed and funky looking Su27.

On the server side, the server host could either require the mod (in which case the previous paragraph has no use), or not to require it. Now, if the miz file on the server has mods under this system, those that have the mods downloaded will see, and be able to pilot/drive the unit in question. Obviously those without the mod, will see the chosen supplement.

What do you guys think? I know I'm not the best at conveying some of my ideas, but I think this would be a better system than we have now.

I'd probably get "punished" for making comparison but MSFS 2020 is very smart in this way.  They release the planes in rough state and the community refines them.  While they continue improving core and making paid add-ons.  MS also provides the SDK for users to use.

ED however continues to lock and encrypt more and more of DCS.  I doubt they'll do anything close to what you're asking.


Edited by Taz1004
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Yes, this would be a very handy feature. Except, I don't want this to be handled inside the game!
Quite honestly we need an official launcher like Skatezilla's app, that also handles mods, or there will be trouble.
Mods have broken the game too often lately, just read the forum after the last update. The system needs to be able to enable/disable before you start it.
Cheers!

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26 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Mods have broken the game too often lately, just read the forum after the last update.

 

The problem is that a lot of users update DCS without disabling their Mods first, and of course if DCS crashes its ED's fault .. not the fact that they try to update a Modded DCS.  I'm also amazed at the sheer quantity of users that install Mods without using a Mod Manager.

I'd say that it is not the Mods that break DCS, rather the other way around: an updated DCS breaks Mods that were tested on older versions of DCS.

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5 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

The problem is that a lot of users update DCS without disabling their Mods first, and of course if DCS crashes its ED's fault .. not the fact that they try to update a Modded DCS.  I'm also amazed at the sheer quantity of users that install Mods without using a Mod Manager.

I'd say that it is not the Mods that break DCS, rather the other way around: an updated DCS breaks Mods that were tested on older versions of DCS.

Absolutely! I totally agree!

Very valid points! Hence my suggestion for a launcher with an integrated mod manager, that will streamline the update process. 

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3 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Yes, this would be a very handy feature. Except, I don't want this to be handled inside the game!
Quite honestly we need an official launcher like Skatezilla's app, that also handles mods, or there will be trouble.
Mods have broken the game too often lately, just read the forum after the last update. The system needs to be able to enable/disable before you start it. emoji4.png
Cheers!

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I would agree the ability to eable and disable before starting would be nice, but I would ideally like something in game as well so that someone is connecting to let's say a Vietnam server that uses Hawkeye's Iowas and the A-4 you could at least load them in a cart

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I would agree the ability to eable and disable before starting would be nice, but I would ideally like something in game as well so that someone is connecting to let's say a Vietnam server that uses Hawkeye's Iowas and the A-4 you could at least load them in a cart
Sure! Good point. But a real launcher could support checking the requirements of any server without ever starting up the DCS desktop.
You guys are thinking too small!
Everything should be done in the launcher before launching the desktop. Every single setting! That's what a launcher is. Won't even mention another excellent one....

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9 hours ago, Tank50us said:

When you are 'preparing' the mod, again we'll use the Rafale, the program will prompt you to choose an alternate. This alternate refers to an existing model in the game itself, and you get to choose the most appropriate model to represent your mod in the event someone doesn't have the mod on a server that doesn't force the mod.

This doesn’t make sense. You want the Rafale to appear in-game as an M-2000?


Edited by SharpeXB

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6 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

This doesn’t make sense. You want the Rafale to appear in-game as an M-2000?

 

I think you missed the point of it. Since there's no Rafale in DCS at all (other than as a mod), you'd choose an aircraft to represent it. The exact choice of plane would be up to the mods developer, but the purpose is the same: have something that can represent the plane for those that don't have the mod on servers that don't require it. For some mods that's easy, like the UH-60 mod could be represented by the existing AI UH60, or someone with the C-130J could be represented by the AI C-130, and so on. Ships get tricky, but tbt, I think ships that meat certain criteria should just be part of the game proper (but that's my opinion of it).

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48 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

I think you missed the point of it. Since there's no Rafale in DCS at all (other than as a mod), you'd choose an aircraft to represent it.

I got that. But that’s going to be really odd. If anyone wants to make an online mission using a mod then just state in the briefing that the mod is needed and add a link for it. That’s an easy enough solution.

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29 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I got that. But that’s going to be really odd. If anyone wants to make an online mission using a mod then just state in the briefing that the mod is needed and add a link for it. That’s an easy enough solution.

Thing is, as things are right now people don't trust mods to even work right when they need to. Largely due to the fact that many of the mod makers can't keep up with the DCS release schedules. One small update could break a mod for someone. The other issues is one of HDD space. Not everyone has a whole lot of money to keep up with the increasing size of DCS, and doesn't want to download something that adds to the size. There's also those purists who just don't want mods at all but are part of groups that use them. Ergo, for whatever reason, the server host can set the server to not require the mod at all, and those that do not have the mod installed will see something meant to represent the plane as chosen by the mod designer, but at the very least will see something that at least looks appropriate, even if it seems odd that the unit being represented looks the way it does and is doing things that are odd (to that player). I'm just trying to think of ways to make DCS better for everyone.

Obviously there are cases where nothing can represent the unit in question, but those are rare, and could be handled on a case-by-case basis within the player base.

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1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

I got that. But that’s going to be really odd.

It's really not.

It's how it already works, except there's no optionality to it and you get far more odd substitutions — eg. everything is a Flanker. Being able to select more appropriate fall-back models would make it far less odd than the current situation.

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40 minutes ago, Tippis said:

It's really not.

It's how it already works, except there's no optionality to it and you get far more odd substitutions — eg. everything is a Flanker. Being able to select more appropriate fall-back models would make it far less odd than the current situation.

Hell most of the base-game planes could stand-in for many of the planes people want if they don't want to download the mods. This would also apply to many of the weapons, giving us at least *some* ability to see what's about to kill us and maybe avoid it.

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12 hours ago, Tank50us said:

Thing is, as things are right now people don't trust mods to even work right when they need to. Largely due to the fact that many of the mod makers can't keep up with the DCS release schedules. One small update could break a mod for someone.

That’s because mods are mods. These things are just made for fun by casual hobbyists. It’s up to the mod maker to keep them current etc. it’s not ED’s job to keep up with these things. And it’s a bit odd to ask ED to do extra work to incorporate freeware aircraft when this basically competes with their business of selling such aircraft. 

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24 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

That’s because mods are mods.

…and as the ultimate signifier of community attachment, they're something the developer can safely jump through some extra hoops for and be assured of utterly insane returns on those investments. There are entire companies that produce rather poorly made games that are made to shine — and that keep the company ridiculously well-fed — simply because of how they embrace the modding community.

As such, a tool that makes modding easier; that gives the players more options; that increases the attractiveness of the game; that reduces friction between those who have an interest in mods and those who do not — all of it is such a no-brains thing to do for ED to massively improve the platform and make it more likely that people flock to it and give them money for it. ED is already aware of this since they have made sure a basic platform for user content exists — it's just that it's stuck a decade in the past rather than embedded in the game the way a more modern approach would handle it.

24 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

And it’s a bit odd to ask ED to do extra work to incorporate freeware aircraft when this basically competes with their business of selling such aircraft. 

One of these days, you're going to have to find someone who can teach you some rudimentary reading skills.

Then you'll stop using these deeply idiotic and laughable misreadings of stuff that no-one has ever suggested but yourself. Well… that, or you'll keep using them because you are nothing but a troll who wants DCS to die a slow death of obsolescence and irrelevance.

No, no-one is asking them to do extra work to incorporate freeware aircraft. This is just some incoherent drivel you've dreamed up because you have no idea how modding works in DCS and how it affects the game in its three main modes of operation. No, these aircraft don't compete with ED's business since they fall into two categories: stuff that is so commercially viable that they will be turned into actual for-pay products, feeding ED's business of selling them; or stuff that has no commercial viability and which therefore won't yield ED any cash in sales regardless and especially won't be something ED themselves have any interest in creating or selling.

No, it is not odd to ask ED to extend and incorporate their user file repository into what could be an updated, integrated, and customer-friendly front-end that would do the same thing you see in a multitude of other games that have started to lean more heavily into the user content side of things.

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That’s because mods are mods. These things are just made for fun by casual hobbyists. It’s up to the mod maker to keep them current etc. it’s not ED’s job to keep up with these things. And it’s a bit odd to ask ED to do extra work to incorporate freeware aircraft when this basically competes with their business of selling such aircraft. 
Regarding the quote you replied to, in this matter I'm totally with you Sharpy. It's not ED's job to make sure/check that user mods work.
If people don't trust mods or can't handle a simple mod manager, they should not use mods. And it's also not ED's fault that mods break.
BUT I do really like the Nexus idea, in a way. Both OvGME and its successor Open Mod Manager supports a Web repositories. Just make them compatible with the user files. Find a common naming convention, categories etc. all could agree on. It could probably be user driven anyway.

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2 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

BUT I do really like the Nexus idea, in a way. Both OvGME and its successor Open Mod Manager supports a Web repositories. Just make them compatible with the user files. Find a common naming convention, categories etc. all could agree on. It could probably be user driven anyway.

Exactly. Mod maker makes an update, they 'log in' to the nexus, update the mod files. Done. On our end, we fire up the game, get a notification of a mod update, accept and download. Game installs, prompts a restart. Done. No more having to check if everyone has the right version. No more worrying about the security of the mod. Nothing. The only thing ED does as far as the mod is concerned, is run regular checks on the nexus to make sure none of them have any malicious code installed. Which can be done as part of the Nexus's own anti-virus software or something. It can even be made automatic when someone uploads a mod, it's checked for malicious code and software, and if clear, it goes up.

Now, if a bunch of people report to ED that the mod is having issues, then ED can take more direct action. From notifying the mod maker that something is broken to permanently disabling it from the nexus if problems persist. If a mod even reaches a certain level of acceptance, they may even ask the mod makers for permission to add the item to the base game (either as an AI Asset in the case of land/sea units, or offer 3rd party status in the case of aircraft). There are ways to do things that are better than what we've got to date.

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@Tank50us
Yes, I agree with this!
But I still want all those features in a launcher and not within the game.
Imagine starting a Steam game, and not be able to update before you launch it.
It could of course be in the game GUI/Desktop too.
Except for mods, most of this is already possible. Just needs a GUI, like Skatezilla's.

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1 hour ago, Tank50us said:

The only thing ED does as far as the mod is concerned, is run regular checks on the nexus to make sure none of them have any malicious code installed.

Why is this a task for ED?

1 hour ago, Tank50us said:

Now, if a bunch of people report to ED that the mod is having issues, then ED can take more direct action.

Again, Not ED’s job…


Edited by SharpeXB

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7 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Why is this a task for ED?

Because they'd be the one maintaining the Nexus. And as a result, it'd be their responsibility to keep it safe and secure. Not exactly a bad thing to ask of them.

8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Again, Not ED’s job…

They do this already for the 3rd Party teams. The Hawk is a prime example of this playing out. Players report issues, the team does nothing to address them, they go to ED, ED tries to get the team to fix it, the team doesn't, etc. At the end of the day, it's a few emails or DMs. That's the sort of thing that the Community team does already.

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14 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

Because they'd be the one maintaining the Nexus. And as a result, it'd be their responsibility to keep it safe and secure. Not exactly a bad thing to ask of them.

They do this already for the 3rd Party teams. The Hawk is a prime example of this playing out. Players report issues, the team does nothing to address them, they go to ED, ED tries to get the team to fix it, the team doesn't, etc. At the end of the day, it's a few emails or DMs. That's the sort of thing that the Community team does already.

3rd parties has a diferent case. Remember them has companies, no moding. That 3rd parties has signal a license agretment / contract with ED (after ED aproval them) and get access to get SDK/TDK and develop versions, to signal comercial products.

None of them has access by the Moding comunity, and none plans by ED to change them or build a "nexus"

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1 hour ago, Tank50us said:

Because they'd be the one maintaining the Nexus. And as a result, it'd be their responsibility to keep it safe and secure. Not exactly a bad thing to ask of them.

Modding by definition is a hobby effort and not created by Eagle Dynamics. So why should they spend the resources troubleshooting the work of other people? It’s not their responsibility.

1 hour ago, Tank50us said:

They do this already for the 3rd Party teams.

You’re completely misunderstanding the difference between a 3rd Party Dev and modders. The 3rd Party Dev has a commercial agreement with ED. ED is not directly getting any money from modders and so would have no interest in managing their work. 


Edited by SharpeXB

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13 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Modding by definition has nothing to do with Eagle Dynamics.

Modding by definition is enabled Eagle Dynamics.
By its implementation, it is also supported by ED.
By virtue of their official repository of mods, it's even actively encouraged by ED.

So it has everything to do with them. This is a good thing, and ED knows it.

13 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

So why should they spend the resources troubleshooting the work of other people?

Good thing no-one is asking for that, then.

13 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

ED is not getting any money from modders and so would have no interest in managing their work.

They do, actually, albeit indirectly. That's why ED are so interested that they are already managing the modders' work. This is just an extension and modernisation of what they're already doing.

You've once again completely misunderstood the very nature of the topic at hand and are just pulling random statements out of your lower back without actually having any idea of whether what you're saying is true or not. As always, the “or not” part is the most applicable…

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7 hours ago, Tippis said:

…and as the ultimate signifier of community attachment, they're something the developer can safely jump through some extra hoops for and be assured of utterly insane returns on those investments. There are entire companies that produce rather poorly made games that are made to shine — and that keep the company ridiculously well-fed — simply because of how they embrace the modding community.

There is a company in Maryland that uses that as their business model. 

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