Jump to content

nothing I try will get any kind of Trim to work on SA-342M


Lineaxe

Recommended Posts

Yes and I did try both methods of Trim. As soon as I release the joystick after trying to climb  it crashes into the ground every time. I had versions that don't do that and I am thinking the SA-342M variant is too heavy to keep it's nose up. After I dump the 4 hot missiles I do get altitude controls working a lot better.  Is anyone else running into this ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is force feedback turned on in the general DCS settings?
I don't really trim this one as I find it unnecessary and not really working. If I do it's only for minor corrections with the trim hat.
Cheers!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk



Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, then something is wrong. It can basically fly itself.
Are you sure you have turned on all the "helpers" etc?
If you follow the training start up mission to the letter. What happens?
Remember to turn on the gyro and let it finish. Also the fuel(?) lever must be all the way forward or it will not work. Did you bind that to an axis?

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I have a Warthog Joystick hooked up at the same time & I am wondering if they must be conflicting when I use the Trim settings.  The Warthog joystick has no Yaw control , and so I use the Logitech Extrems 3d pro for YAW( & also for flying around in the various helicopters).  In the Mi-8 and Huey, as well as the AH-64 Apache , I can fly  and manage to get them to Trim out ok . But not when I am flying  these Sa-342 s at the moment  . Seems I used to be able to fly these SA-342s straight, but can not any more.  If I could cut off the Warthog's joystick inputs somehow and leave the buttons on it active then I might be able to get some kind of trim control.    

 ( still have to play around with the Ka-50  to get to know it better)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well I have a Warthog Joystick hooked up at the same time & I am wondering if they must be conflicting when I use the Trim settings.  The Warthog joystick has no Yaw control , and so I use the Logitech Extrems 3d pro for YAW( & also for flying around in the various helicopters).  In the Mi-8 and Huey, as well as the AH-64 Apache , I can fly  and manage to get them to Trim out ok . But not when I am flying  these Sa-342 s at the moment  . Seems I used to be able to fly these SA-342s straight, but can not any more.  If I could cut off the Warthog's joystick inputs somehow and leave the buttons on it active then I might be able to get some kind of trim control.    
 ( still have to play around with the Ka-50  to get to know it better)
Well. You can of course. Open the control settings for the Gaz, go to axis. Empty the Warthog stick column, and you're good to go.
And like I said. It is important to disable force feedback (if you don't have one), in the DCS general settings. As this does break the Gaz. I am not kidding. It's on by default.

Cheers!


Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk


Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the ideas.. I just shot my first moving enemy SA-342 down with the HOTs and then a tank so I am feeling the power of the SA-342 !

Now that SA-342 had killed off my UH-1 at a FARP earlier in the game so it had a price on its head.


Edited by Lineaxe
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I did turn off the XY axis controls on the Warthog . Heh , that makes so much sense I shoulda thought of it 🤔 Well anyhow after checking that force feedback is off and flying again, it does not seem to help out.  If I let go of the  Logitech Extrems 3d pro for a few seconds I will fall into the ground. No pitch control at all for the trim .   Well, in my mission  , Chop-U , the distances to FARPS and enemy units is not too great at all.  Now if I could land on a FARP without breaking something ... that's me next trick!!!

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I did turn off the XY axis controls on the Warthog . Heh , that makes so much sense I shoulda thought of it  Well anyhow after checking that force feedback is off and flying again, it does not seem to help out.  If I let go of the  Logitech Extrems 3d pro for a few seconds I will fall into the ground. No pitch control at all for the trim .   Well, in my mission  , Chop-U , the distances to FARPS and enemy units is not too great at all.  Now if I could land on a FARP without breaking something ... that's me next trick!!!
Make a video. I can't really believe this happens.
Check if you have more axis conflicts.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, file too big. 

I have found that the  inputs are indeed working the trim.  I can set the pitch above and below center line and the yaw to the left and right of the center line.

Now, no matter how high or low I set the pitch angle and keeping it centered, when I let go of Joystick it still heads to the ground. 

So , I might have something not set, perhaps?

I have Magnetic Brake set to on , Autopilot switch set to on, Trim is turned on, Gyro is on,  Sync is set in the GM position . (control dash is English text).

Now what would cause the SA-342s nose to constantly want to drop like that , even with a high Pitch angle?


Edited by Lineaxe
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As long as you follow what's in the cold start training missions you should be good.
But gyros etc must be aligned, which means fuel lever must be at 100.
That's why I said make a video (for YouTube) or upload a track.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/4/2022 at 12:25 AM, Lineaxe said:

Now what would cause the SA-342s nose to constantly want to drop like that , even with a high Pitch angle?

Do you use the controls indicator? Have a look on it! Maybe there was an auto-binding of another joystick axis to cyclic pitch control. My pedals have a differential break function (2 linear axes without centring) and that was bound to cyclic function. No fun! DCS grabs every new input device and makes ridiculous choices on axis binding.

The Gazelle can be flown with cyclic centred mostly all the time. If an axis is more than a small amount out of centre there will be a constant roll on this function. Thus your nose might drop.


Edited by jumphigh
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Lineaxe said:

I have Magnetic Brake set to on , Autopilot switch set to on, Trim is turned on, Gyro is on,  Sync is set in the GM position . (control dash is English text).

Now what would cause the SA-342s nose to constantly want to drop like that , even with a high Pitch angle?

Do you depress "Autopilot" Master on the stick and see the SAS indicators center (default attitude hold) ?
Is your airspeed above 120 km/h (ideally 150km/h or greater) ?
Have you manually trimmed the aircraft (Magnetic and or trim hat) so it is already flying straight and level before engaging the Autopilot button on the cyclic ?
Does your joystick show any "jitter" or "sticksion" that might require a dead zone ?
Remember - the Altitude/Speed modes are sub mods and maintain the selected Altitude/Speed by adjusting pitch.

Here's an example of using the Autopilot and Altitude Submode in case you're missing something basic.

DCS Gazelle Autopilot - Altitude Submode, 2_7_12_23362.jpg

  • Like 1

i9 9900K @4.7GHz, 64GB DDR4, RTX4070 12GB, 1+2TB NVMe, 6+4TB HD, 4+1TB SSD, Winwing Orion 2 F-15EX Throttle + F-16EX Stick, TPR Pedals, TIR5, Win 10 Pro x64, 1920X1080

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Ramsay ,

 Do you depress "Autopilot" Master on the stick and see the SAS indicators center (default attitude hold) ?  Yes, SAS shows centered
Is your airspeed above 120 km/h (ideally 150km/h or greater) ?  My Airspeed has varied at times but  is at most times in flight above those minimums 
Does your joystick show any "jitter" or "sticksion" that might require a dead zone ?  No , jitter shows using the SA-342 or by using the Uh-1 , Ka-50, AH-64 , and Mi-8 helicopters

Quote

Have you manually trimmed the aircraft (Magnetic and or trim hat) so it is already flying straight and level before engaging the Autopilot button on the cyclic ?

This is what I can not do at all . I can change the pitch and yaw to new Trimmed values, but no matter what they are , the chopper always drops to the ground when I let go of stick.


Edited by Lineaxe
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Jumphigh,

 

Do you use the controls indicator?   Yes. I have used it to verify that the trim positions were indeed being changed over  (somewhat)  to my joysticks postions when I click the Trim button.

It seems , I can get them to change the trim.  No matter what position it is set into , it dives into the ground. Pretty weird stuff I am finding , since I pitch it up as high as I can get it. I must be doing something else basic very wrong I guess. Now I  do use a  warm startup from parking when I take off and thus don't need to set most of the stuff required in a normal startup. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, Lineaxe said:

Does your joystick show any "jitter" or "sticksion" that might require a dead zone ?  No , jitter shows using the SA-342 or by using the Uh-1 , Ka-50, AH-64 , and Mi-8 helicopters

The Gazelle uses a different control "method" to the other DCS helicopters and it's cyclic inputs are much more sensitive - both to fly and for control issues.

37 minutes ago, Lineaxe said:

This is what I can not do at all . I can change the pitch and yaw to new Trimmed values, but no matter what they are , the chopper always drops to the ground when I let go of stick.

I feared as much.

These are my control settings, though I doubt they'll help.

Screen_220504_183106.jpg

i9 9900K @4.7GHz, 64GB DDR4, RTX4070 12GB, 1+2TB NVMe, 6+4TB HD, 4+1TB SSD, Winwing Orion 2 F-15EX Throttle + F-16EX Stick, TPR Pedals, TIR5, Win 10 Pro x64, 1920X1080

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here  is a picture of my settings in a flight at 150 km/h trying hard to stay up in the air without touching controls.  I placed a green circle around settings I have checked & making sure they are set correctly. Maybe I am missing one or something

NO FLIGHT CONTROL MY SETTINGS.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Lineaxe said:

Here  is a picture of my settings in a flight at 150 km/h trying hard to stay up in the air without touching controls.  I placed a green circle around settings I have checked & making sure they are set correctly. Maybe I am missing one or something

TL;DR:

Unfortunately all I can really tell from your picture is that you're not in stable flight i.e. well trimmed for level flight, and that the helicopter is ascending due to the collective applied.

Comment

I can describe how I set my trim/autopilot, however it may not be exactly the same as I use a FFB stick
(instructions assume compensating for roll changes with the cyclic, maintaining altitude with the collective, yaw with the pedals, etc.)
(After each manoeuvre, the players "spring centering" joystick should be allowed to center i.e. pitch the nose down, then allow the joystick to center)

1. Set the desired speed by pitching the nose down with the cyclic
2. Adjust collective to maintain the desired/current altitude
3. Once stable and in level flight, set pitch trim with mag  brake
4. Further adjust the collective (if req'ed) and then use the trim hat up/down to fine tune the VVI for level flight

(do not try to set trim by using the Controls Display as it is not sensitive enough, make trim changes while watching the aircraft's instruments)

Optional/recommended

5. Select the Altitude Submode on the AP panel
6. Turn on the AP using the cyclic "Autopilot Master" button, so the AP will maintain the current barometric altitude.

Notes

As I use a FFB stick, I have FFB enabled in
• Options>Misc --> Force Feedback=ON
... and
• Options>Special>SA342 --> Individual FFB toggle=OFF


Edited by Ramsay
  • Like 1

i9 9900K @4.7GHz, 64GB DDR4, RTX4070 12GB, 1+2TB NVMe, 6+4TB HD, 4+1TB SSD, Winwing Orion 2 F-15EX Throttle + F-16EX Stick, TPR Pedals, TIR5, Win 10 Pro x64, 1920X1080

Link to comment
Share on other sites




• Options>Special>SA342 --> Individual FFB toggle=OFF


What does that setting do?
I have the MS FFB2, and whenever I try to trim det Gaz. The new "trim/center point" is added the previous one exponentially, so it's really hard to trim, in a way.
Cheers!


Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe it is Force Feed back setting is set to OFF position  ,found in the dcs main settings . It is recommended for most  spring loaded Joysticks. 
I'm asking Ramsey because he has FFB like me. But I've got issues. That setting is special for the Gazelle.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

What does that setting do?

No idea !!! 🤣

I don't usually use the AP/trim in the Gazelle, as it didn't work well with my MSFFB2 (if I switched to a non-FFB Sidewinder 2, trim/AP worked as described).

Thought I'd boot up the Gazelle and check nothing got broke in the latest OB - was surprised AP Altitude mode worked as well as it did - I'd guess that's because the Mag Brake adjustment I made (from center) was relatively small.

The trim hat VVI adjustment also worked much better than I remembered (IIRC small increments weren't strong enough to for the FFB force to move the real stick accurately).

Polychop have made some changes to the flight model/control scheme and while it's not EFM 2.0 (from the Kiowa), it does seem to have changed for the better.

Comment/Speculation

How FFB now seems to work is - you should fly the Gazelle like you have a spring centering joystick and always set the mag brake when the FFB stick is near the center i.e.

1. push stick forward to nose down
2. allow FFB stick to return center
3. depress Mag brake to "set" the trim for "nose down" in DCS
4. The "Trim Hat" makes small changes to the aircraft's trim
(these don't "double up" with the real stick as the FFB forces are too weak/small to make it move)

This may be less a change in control scheme (by Polychop) and more a better understand (on my part) of how the DCS Gazelles' cyclic "works" i.e. is coded for spring centering joysticks.


Edited by Ramsay
  • Like 1

i9 9900K @4.7GHz, 64GB DDR4, RTX4070 12GB, 1+2TB NVMe, 6+4TB HD, 4+1TB SSD, Winwing Orion 2 F-15EX Throttle + F-16EX Stick, TPR Pedals, TIR5, Win 10 Pro x64, 1920X1080

Link to comment
Share on other sites



No idea !!! 
I don't usually use the AP/trim in the Gazelle, as it didn't work well with my MSFFB2 (if I switched to a non-FFB Sidewinder 2, trim/AP worked as described).
Thought I'd boot up the Gazelle and check nothing got broke in the latest OB - was surprised AP Altitude mode worked as well as it did - I'd guess that's because the Mag Brake adjustment I made (from center) was relatively small.
The trim hat VVI adjustment also worked much better than I remembered (IIRC small increments weren't strong enough to for the FFB force to move the real stick accurately).
Polychop have made some changes to the flight model/control scheme and while it's not EFM 2.0 (from the Kiowa), it does seem to have changed for the better.
Comment/Speculation
How FFB now seems to work is - you should fly the Gazelle like you have a spring centering joystick and always set the mag brake when the FFB stick is near the center i.e.
1. push stick forward to nose down
2. allow FFB stick to return center
3. depress Mag brake to "set" the trim for "nose down" in DCS
4. The "Trim Hat" makes small changes to the aircraft's trim
(these don't "double up" with the real stick as the FFB forces are too weak/small to make it move)
This may be less a change in control scheme (by Polychop) and more a better understand (on my part) of how the DCS Gazelles' cyclic "works" i.e. is coded for spring centering joysticks.


Right, thanks! I'm not insane then!
Seems you are experiencing the same issues and limitations as me.
Yeah, I treat the MS FFB2 like an ordinary stick and trim with the hat.
I have tried and erred with simFFB, with minor luck. So I'll guess I just cross my fingers for a new FM and better FFB implementation.
Cheers!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

uh, hmm , well ,I gave it a cold boot and it fixed  the software /joystick problem. It now works like it always used to and does not drop the SA342 into the ground.

Interestingly , it had never done caused the other 4 types of choppers any problems and I could trim and autopilot with them all.   Now, I assume that is what had fixed it since there were no updates of dcs and I used the same version of moose.  Well, I was coding and chasing down bugs 🐞 while playing the mission.  Sometimes ,me own bugs cause all the grief!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...