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No BVR Fight with AMRAAMs in DCS


Night Raid

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1 hour ago, Night Raid said:

We are a group of DCS pilots involved in Air to Air Combat. Our expertise includes experience in real jets like Tornado and Eurofighter, as flight instructors and as weapons instructors but most of all we are experienced DCS pilots in PvP and PvE.
We don't want to participate in the endless discussion "is it real or not real". As well, we will not talk about technical data, because we don’t know or are not allowed to do so.
We want to talk about the principles and the philosophy of an AIM120 used in DCS. 
From our point of view there are two principles here, which are violated in DCS and thus give the BVR fight with AMRAAMs completely wrong fundamentals. 

First:
The Missile warns you when it's time to turn away! Whether I take a max range shot or fire the missile just before its active range, if the target flies an abort at the first warning of the active missile radar (max G turn to zero aspect angle) it will kinematically deflect the missile. This always works unless the target cannot make a high-performance abort for some reason (G’s available, speed, etc.).
This makes it unnecessary to know distances when to react against an AIM 120 shooter at the latest. You make sure you have enough energy available for a high-performance maneuver and watch your RWR. This is enough to defend 100% of any AIM 120 Shot that is not active from the rail.
This makes the fight very simple against an AIM 120. Of course, there could be situations where the target of an AIM 120 would be warned in time, but there must be situations where this is not the case. But there is none! Who would want such a weapon?

Second:
There are ways to defeat an AIM 120 in DCS very safely, without abort, outside but and also inside the kinematic no escape zone. Skilled pilots can do this with just about any missile that is not fired in dog fight range. 
An AIM 120 should have a very high Pk (probability of kill), if there are no energy problems from the side of the missile.
But it does not, on the contrary. Against an experienced DCS pilot, a 5 NM head on shot is a low Pk shot! Who would want such a weapon?

This leads to the following BVR Fight principles:
- Don't shoot long range or medium range to kill. Rarely is a target that stupid. The missile is easy to defeat.
- Do not fly too high and too fast. The advantages you have in terms of missile range do not matter. The disadvantages you have, because you can't maneuver optimally, do.
- Distances do not matter. Pay attention to your RWR. Abort when you see an M.
- There are no high pk shots outside of 4 NM.
- Learn how to use a 3D maneuver to safely defeat a missile even inside the no escape zone.

Is that what you guys want? Missiles worked better 2 years ago in terms of BVR fights principles than they do now. Forget for a moment, the notch gates and all the little bits and bites. Look at the big picture.

The AMRAAM is a medium range missile. But it doesn't make sense in DCS to use it medium range.
We would like to have an AIM 120 which makes sense to fight BVR with. 

It doesn't matter if this corresponds to your view of a realistic simulation.

If you want to have an easy way for everyone, give the Flankers and Migs a change in DCS and support the great Dog Fight Videos, then please solve this by using Jammers.

Check six
GTAG 

 

Many a times I thought of writing something on similar notes. I am glad I didn't do that. I would never have managed to explain it all the way you have done it. Hats off for that.

In a contest between mildly skilled pilots, the most widely used BVR missile has literally come down to a visual engagement choice of weapon. The BVR engagement of AMRAAM instead of starting from MELD and gradually shrinking down to MAR starts of with jugglery and non-realistic ultra low-level maneuvers to sneak through the valleys, sometimes with the 100 accurately modeled RWR notches; disregarding every potential of the missile and every fundamental of the engagement, here you are at 100 feet AGL at less than 5 NM and now firing a ton load of steel at each other to have some high Pk shots. 

The current state needs to be looked into, I believe. Where defensive maneuvering definitely needs serious skill to be executed, but while disregarding every other fundamental principle of BVR engagement, it must not ensure 100% survivability in every given circumstances.

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Absolutely. The realistic fight is becoming less realistic as time goes on and it's frustrating for those trying to simulate realistically. I've heard almost the exact same exclamation you made OP "Who would want such a weapon?" from our squadron's real F-18 pilots.

- Modern radars (aircraft or missile) should NOT be easily notched. It should be very difficult. These aren't old radars that were very vulnerable to it. If you even want a chance to notch you'd need to be within 1 degree of accuracy to reduce closure, then add in ground clutter, chaff, jamming, maneuvering and luck. Right now, you simply notch within 10-15 degrees and it works 95% of the time. It's funny to me when a tanker making a gentle turn notches you almost every single time. Based on various parameters the radar notch filter should dynamically change. The "notch" exists because the radar allows it to in order to filter out clutter. If the target is very close and extremely obvious to the radar, it won't have a hard time filtering it out from clutter and narrowing the notch filter.

- The AIM-120 currently is easily spoofed by simple maneuvers (even worse this patch) but even in previous patches for example things such as AI fighters jettisoning their fuel tanks. The fuel tank being released from their aircraft has an completely different vector than the aircraft, a modern missile would not be so easily spoofed by this (perhaps when bullseye nose high/low it may have some effect, but certainly not relatively perpendicular to the ground).

- Radar lookdown currently is atrocious. A modern radar look down should have essentially no effect when the target is over water, and when the target is over land the effect will be noticeable but not greatly so like it currently is. (48NM detection shrinking to 31NM ?)

- STT Lock-on currently has a 85% reduction in track range which is nonsensical for a modern radar. This is probably based on source information from a very old radar, but is not applicable to modern radar. You should be able to track further than you can detect with a modern radar (of course in order to initiate a track the target would either need to enter your detection range and then leave it, or you would initiate STT via a offboard track like with the F-18's MSI) but simply having a radar hit on your RDR ATTK means you 100% should be able to STT that target.

All of the passionate members of the DCS community want this simulation to be the best it can be.


Edited by MARLAN_
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+1. Theres really no point of discussing if its realistic or not, because even for an arcade, current state is unacceptable imo. Hoping to see ED to take this seriously and listen what PvP players say at some point.

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And missiles tracking other missiles ! For how long is that happening? for me its long enough to be considered a ''feature'' of the sim tbh, which is sad. I mean, the missile is already in a terrible state that you have to get 4nm close to a HOT enemy to have a high pk shot, only for it track the enemy missile like some kind of iron dome system. Not even arcade games have this level of nonsense. 


Edited by Xhonas
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5 minutes ago, vtaf_archer said:

+1. Theres really no point of discussing if its realistic or not, because even for an arcade, current state is unacceptable imo. Hoping to see ED to take this seriously and listen what PvP players say at some point.

PVP? On PVE the IA can notch a missile just fine with gentle turn now... The most modern missile on game is almost useless.

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4 minutes ago, marcoscosta said:

PVP? On PVE the IA can notch a missile just fine with gentle turn now... The most modern missile on game is almost useless.

Fair point. I said PvP because whenever I try to say something about broken missiles some guy pops up and says "what is wrong its just fine bots can kill me easily with amraams?" 😄 Whether pvp or pve, 120s are garbage and definitely needs to be fixed. Can't believe why there were almost no topics about them meanwhile all other lower priority things getting taken care of. 

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3 minutes ago, vtaf_archer said:

Fair point. I said PvP because whenever I try to say something about broken missiles some guy pops up and says "what is wrong its just fine bots can kill me easily with amraams?" 😄 

That is a problem on this forums, no matter how obvious is the problem, there is always someone that comes with some delusional theroy to say the contrary just because.

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2 hours ago, Night Raid said:

...This leads to the following BVR Fight principles:
- Don't shoot long range or medium range to kill. Rarely is a target that stupid. The missile is easy to defeat...

GTAG 

 

Oh, I don't know...  the big picture dictates the tactics. In my sim-gaming experience (few years online, then AI hordes), it almost always comes down to what happens after that first shot.

Do you just want to simply defeat this first shot and reposition/reattack or... ride the 'edge' till the next shot(s) comes off the rail. That's where the fun was and is for me.

Now... current Amraams don't annoy me as much as the crippled Hornet's radar. (That's the only jet I fly until ED fixes it, then... I'll purchase everything else :yes:) The most annoying is the 'stepping' logic between the L&S and other tracks to include your own missiles. Inability to overcome the sidelobe noise at fairly low altitude, say 3, 2k ft. agl. and couple of other things.

I need to play with current Amraams a bit more... so far I couldn't spot anything radically worse or even different from previous versions. 

PS. humans or bots... there's fun fighting either, although 'bots' have a long way to go...  come on  'noah, klaus and bill' :devil_2:

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DCS Forum: A magic place where a real life fighter pilot is schooled by "sim-gaming" pilots about air combat tactics... 😂

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ED should be commended for the work they've put into making the missile harder to notch through the velocity and range gates they've added recently; but the OP is correct, being able to easily defeat the missile is laughable.

I would like to see the implementation of MPRF mode on the AMRAAMs, where the missile seeker cannot be defeated by notching (only kinnematic defeat).

Also, +1 to the comments about the improper modeling of of radar detection vs radar tracking ranges in digitally filtered radar sets. That needs to be fixed on 4th gen western aircraft ASAP.

ED has been getting a lot better about listening to the community, so hopefully that happens here too. They've proven they can model whatever they set their mind to, so I'm sure this is all fixable, if they have leadership with guts to fix it.

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120s are 100 percent trash right now, the overall missile modeling is just as bad. No point spending another dime on this game until something changes. 

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64th "Scorpions" Aggressor Squadron

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TS: 195.201.110.22

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10 hours ago, Night Raid said:

We are a group of DCS pilots involved in Air to Air Combat. Our expertise includes experience in real jets like Tornado and Eurofighter, as flight instructors and as weapons instructors but most of all we are experienced DCS pilots in PvP and PvE.
We don't want to participate in the endless discussion "is it real or not real". As well, we will not talk about technical data, because we don’t know or are not allowed to do so.
We want to talk about the principles and the philosophy of an AIM120 used in DCS. 
From our point of view there are two principles here, which are violated in DCS and thus give the BVR fight with AMRAAMs completely wrong fundamentals. 

First:
The Missile warns you when it's time to turn away! Whether I take a max range shot or fire the missile just before its active range, if the target flies an abort at the first warning of the active missile radar (max G turn to zero aspect angle) it will kinematically deflect the missile. This always works unless the target cannot make a high-performance abort for some reason (G’s available, speed, etc.).
This makes it unnecessary to know distances when to react against an AIM 120 shooter at the latest. You make sure you have enough energy available for a high-performance maneuver and watch your RWR. This is enough to defend 100% of any AIM 120 Shot that is not active from the rail.
This makes the fight very simple against an AIM 120. Of course, there could be situations where the target of an AIM 120 would be warned in time, but there must be situations where this is not the case. But there is none! Who would want such a weapon?

Second:
There are ways to defeat an AIM 120 in DCS very safely, without abort, outside but and also inside the kinematic no escape zone. Skilled pilots can do this with just about any missile that is not fired in dog fight range. 
An AIM 120 should have a very high Pk (probability of kill), if there are no energy problems from the side of the missile.
But it does not, on the contrary. Against an experienced DCS pilot, a 5 NM head on shot is a low Pk shot! Who would want such a weapon?

This leads to the following BVR Fight principles:
- Don't shoot long range or medium range to kill. Rarely is a target that stupid. The missile is easy to defeat.
- Do not fly too high and too fast. The advantages you have in terms of missile range do not matter. The disadvantages you have, because you can't maneuver optimally, do.
- Distances do not matter. Pay attention to your RWR. Abort when you see an M.
- There are no high pk shots outside of 4 NM.
- Learn how to use a 3D maneuver to safely defeat a missile even inside the no escape zone.

Is that what you guys want? Missiles worked better 2 years ago in terms of BVR fights principles than they do now. Forget for a moment, the notch gates and all the little bits and bites. Look at the big picture.

The AMRAAM is a medium range missile. But it doesn't make sense in DCS to use it medium range.
We would like to have an AIM 120 which makes sense to fight BVR with. 

It doesn't matter if this corresponds to your view of a realistic simulation.

If you want to have an easy way for everyone, give the Flankers and Migs a chance in DCS and support the great Dog Fight Videos, then please solve this by using Jammers.

Check six
GTAG 

 

I have seen a whole episode on a TV channel many years so. Aim-120C5 was being field tested that day. There were air force personnel and Raytheon people during testing, and against target drones drone Aim-120C5 had a kill ratio of 40%. Its amazing that even though Eagles and flankers are models from 1980s technology, yet you expect them to work like 2022 technology 

 

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6 minutes ago, combatace said:

I have seen a whole episode on a TV channel many years so. Aim-120C5 was being field tested that day. There were air force personnel and Raytheon people during testing, and against target drones drone Aim-120C5 had a kill ratio of 40%. Its amazing that even though Eagles and flankers are models from 1980s technology, yet you expect them to work like 2022 technology 

 

Sorry but "i've seen a tv episode..." is never a good baseline to build an argument on.
i bet if its true that there is flight instructors and weapons instructors within the group the OP mentions, their knowledge will be more fact based than a TV episode.

with answers like this the post is dragged into the depths of the DCS forums again and no one will look at the very core issue the OP wanted to shine light upon. a lot of us here do not want this post to be locked due to going off topic too far or being just a standard internet argument.

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8 hours ago, Geezer66 said:

In this video Cesar Rodriguez, F-15 pilot, says in 1999 he fired his amraam from beyond 37 miles at the Mig-29 he killed.

 

Could you please timestamp the moment he said that?

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I simply can’t comprehend how such an integral part of the sim can be so bad for so long. A shared component of two of EDs most popular modules! Want to fly a sim and pretend to be a real fighter pilot? Tough luck!

 

Eagle Dynamics..

Thank you for your passionate lack of support.  
 

 


Edited by comie1
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But it's solved!

 

ED simply won't respond until they're ridiculed by the community on Hoggit and YouTube. Only then might we get a "We're sorry its such a cringefest" video by Nick Grey and he kicks the Devs into fixing it.

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Edited by *Rage*
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Seems like a good rant. But the funny thing is, everyone seems to take the AMRAAM Pk at face value of a brochure or test fire results against drones. Sure it has 100% pk then.... 

I don't buy it one bit. Because history has proven once these missiles are used in real combat vs a maneuvering adversary.... Just like with 9X, the first result is usually a miss! How about in heavy ECM environment? 

Go figure. Armchair pilots always like to have it easy like in the brochures.

Instead, the questions should be asked into why these missiles are so easy to notch. Maybe because the western RWR is modelled so perfectly without any sidelobes, perfect angle to 1degree. Making it as easy as lining up a marker to the 3/9 line....

Some might draw other conclusions 

😂😂


Edited by Breakshot
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