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No BVR Fight with AMRAAMs in DCS


Night Raid

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The missile and radars in general seem to loose lock too easily. It's very questionable that aircraft making a sudden turn goes invisible so reliably, but I think there is also a problem with utilization. The weapon is useful well outside of 4 nmi, unless perhaps the fight is all the way down at sea level. I try to avoid that because of the disadvantages it brings.

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Awaiting: DCS F-15C

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To me it seems as if ED makes adjustments to individual parameters of missiles without regard for how that change affect the actual gameplay. They don't look at the big picture. If they were looking at that, they'd quickly see that the current shape of BVR is in fact not beyond visual range and far from the accounts of RL pilots. 

Current meta is not about setting up tactical formations, gaining energy advantage, having superior sensors, launching first missile. It's, as described above, flying low, notching and relying on lesser sensors like RWR.

- RWR sensors are overperforming in DCS. We have degree-precision and it's very easy to find the notch with them. We have no ambiguity or missed signals. We pick up everything at an exact, defined range, almost instantly. There's a reason why the RWR is often small and placed low in the cockpit and it's not because it's a primary sensor for BVR SA. Add randomness, processing time, ambiguity, missed signals etc. And angular precision needs to decrease.

Giving an active missile your broadside at 3-4 nm should not increase your chances to 90%. Notching should be a niche, not the norm in BVR.

- There's not a single pilot account, report, interview, manual etc that says notching an AMRAAM should be a thing. When was the last time we heard the following statement:
In desert storm, the 58th Gorillas, arguably the best fighter squadron of its time, pushed low and slow over the border only to notch the bandits until close in at 5 nm, where they turned in hot and shot the MiGs. /s 

ED should make a full overview of your current development of the AMRAAM as well as other missiles, to get a coherent end product out to the consumers. I know some modules are EA and under development, but the F-15C is not, and is still being experimented with but running an indefinite development of it's main weapon. Many have spent thousands of hours in this sim and want to spend thousands more, but the current state of BVR is very discouraging, both for fun public server flying as well as PVP tournaments.

We currently have no end goal in sight, as there's no official plan, time table, roadmap for the missiles. People are loosing interest when things seem stale. And each patch with notes addressing missiles seem to always be false advertising. 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Breakshot said:

Seems like a good rant. But the funny thing is, everyone seems to take the AMRAAM Pk at face value of a brochure or test fire results against drones. Sure it has 100% pk then.... 

I don't buy it one bit. Because history has proven once these missiles are used in real combat vs a maneuvering adversary.... Just like with 9X, the first result is usually a miss! How about in heavy ECM environment? 

Nobody says that and nobody demands it here, I don't understand why this insinuation keeps coming up.

who thinks that "invincible" Aim120 are demanded, has not understood the problem.

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  • ED Team

Moved to wish list, but I have passed on the feedback.

Please if you wish to report a bug include a short track replay example of any issue, with attached evidence and keep to one issue per thread, it makes it easier to track. 

thanks

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vor 47 Minuten schrieb BIGNEWY:

Moved to wish list, but I have passed on the feedback.

Please if you wish to report a bug include a short track replay example of any issue, with attached evidence and keep to one issue per thread, it makes it easier to track. 

thanks

God dammit... 

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It is strange to me that such a post is moved to the wishlist, especially considering the pinned post in the weapons bugs section states „Examples are missile guidance or FM issues, gun dispersion, bomb accuracy, etc.“

and the OPs post is far from a wishlist item when read completely… sad.

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vor 5 Minuten schrieb _SteelFalcon_:

It is strange to me that such a post is moved to the wishlist, especially considering the pinned post in the weapons bugs section states „Examples are missile guidance or FM issues, gun dispersion, bomb accuracy, etc.“

and the OPs post is far from a wishlist item when read completely… sad.

We need to continue. It is been for too long. The more support the better

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Perfect rwr 3/9 come back to bite then. Thats why its so easy to notch and defeat missiles in dcs. However one or two good posts here. And if there are so called real pilots surely they would have data to share with ED also?


Edited by Coxy_99
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1 minute ago, Coxy_99 said:

Perfect rwr 3/9 come back to bite then. Thats why its so easy to notch and defeat missiles in dcs. However one or two good posts here.

It's because we can see missile as a dot + RWR too perfectly detecting a spike heading.

PVP players notch missile looking at a dot.
But do ED believe real pilots can tally missile!?

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26 minutes ago, chihirobelmo said:

I can't tell the source but real BVR trainings are mostly Launch & Leave,

DCS BVR has been always Launch & notch these 5 years.

I have an good example video but I can't put the link because this is EDForum...

The simple reason of that is: in real life you have just ONE life. 
Amraams like any other human artifact is imperfect but still dangerous for someone who have just ONE life.

Here we have infinite lives, so don't blame ED if they make missiles more realistic. Just understand that here people don't have to go back to base to live another day, you can try and try to die more and more, and learn, until you find a way to survive even in a complex storm of imperfect missiles. Here you will have the opportunity to learn this. And this is something that nobody in real life will never do.

So if you act in a "non realistic way" is not necessarily a simulator problem in this case, but a people's choice. 

So guys, just stop to speak about real life in an amraam topic pretending to know how an amraam would behave and how much hard should be evading it. Fortunately the real world never saw an half of what we see in a single hour of combat in this simulator.
Someone speaks about "gameplay" like this environment should be "balanced", or even palatable to a fair "competition". Oh my.. this is not a moba game, this is a simulator, and the reality doesn't pretend to be balanced. And we are speaking about a BETA version, remember it.

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3 minutes ago, Coxy_99 said:

You guys might like this VID:  

This video is very relevant because "Art of the Kill" is about dogfighting and doesn't talk about BVR at all, just like ED.

2 minutes ago, falconzx said:

And we are speaking about a BETA version, remember it.

The stable branch has the same problems, so we are speaking about both. This thread is not about the latest patch, it's about the last 2 years.


Edited by audax
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7 minutes ago, falconzx said:

The simple reason of that is: in real life you have just ONE life. 
Amraams like any other human artifact is imperfect but still dangerous for someone who have just ONE life.

Here we have infinite lives, so don't blame ED if they make missiles more realistic. Just understand that here people don't have to go back to base to live another day, you can try and try to die more and more, and learn, until you find a way to survive even in a complex storm of imperfect missiles. Here you will have the opportunity to learn this. And this is something that nobody in real life will never do.

So if you act in a "non realistic way" is not necessarily a simulator problem in this case, but a people's choice. 

So guys, just stop to speak about real life in an amraam topic pretending to know how an amraam would behave and how much hard should be evading it. Fortunately the real world never saw an half of what we see in a single hour of combat in this simulator.
Someone speaks about "gameplay" like this environment should be "balanced", or even palatable to a fair "competition". Oh my.. this is not a moba game, this is a simulator, and the reality doesn't pretend to be balanced. And we are speaking about a BETA version, remember it.



Well said sir.

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4 minutes ago, audax said:

The stable branch has the same problems, so we are speaking about both. This thread is not about the latest patch, it's about the last 2 years.

Oh the topic is "there is no BVR fight with amraam in DCS" so adding your statement it become, since 2 years there is no BVR in DCS with amraams.
Just watch a random tacview from any day before this patch and you will see thousands of BVR examples. Trust me 🙂

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42 minutes ago, _SteelFalcon_ said:

It is strange to me that such a post is moved to the wishlist, especially considering the pinned post in the weapons bugs section states „Examples are missile guidance or FM issues, gun dispersion, bomb accuracy, etc.“

and the OPs post is far from a wishlist item when read completely… sad.

Read @BIGNEWY's post. This thread is a bit of a wandering rant, no one is posting tracks, and nothing is being pointed out specifically as a bug. There is just a vague notion that AMRAAM's are wrong.

 

The problem isn't being ignored, ED just can't do anything unless we communicate properly.

34 minutes ago, Coxy_99 said:

Perfect rwr 3/9 come back to bite then. Thats why its so easy to notch and defeat missiles in dcs. However one or two good posts here. And if there are so called real pilots surely they would have data to share with ED also?

 

It's not just the RWR issue, which I agree needs to change, HB did it right with the F-14. Radar memory modes are weak or non existent, and radar filters/gates don't seem to be precise enough. There are also quite a few members who have posted about the over effectiveness of chaff.

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Awaiting: DCS F-15C

Win 10 i5-9600KF 4.6 GHz 64 GB RAM RTX2080Ti 11GB -- Win 7 64 i5-6600K 3.6 GHz 32 GB RAM GTX970 4GB -- A-10C, F-5E, Su-27, F-15C, F-14B, F-16C missions in User Files

 

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3 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

Read @BIGNEWY's post. This thread is a bit of a wandering rant, no one is posting tracks, and nothing is being pointed out specifically as a bug. There is just a vague notion that AMRAAM's are wrong.

 

The problem isn't being ignored, ED just can't do anything unless we communicate properly.

It's not just the RWR issue, which I agree needs to change, HB did it right with the F-14. Radar memory modes are weak or non existent, and radar filters/gates don't seem to be precise enough. There are also quite a few members who have posted about the over effectiveness of chaff.

There are plenty of tracks already submitted, just because they aren't in this thread doesn't mean they don't exist. Please have a look then reply.

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39 minutes ago, Coxy_99 said:

Perfect rwr 3/9 come back to bite then. Thats why its so easy to notch and defeat missiles in dcs. However one or two good posts here. And if there are so called real pilots surely they would have data to share with ED also?

 

They cant because they would get arrested or get in trouble or whatever! See? Its bulletproof strategy.

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2 minutes ago, comie1 said:

There are plenty of tracks already submitted, just because they aren't in this thread doesn't mean they don't exist.

Yes I know, I am explaining why this issue isn't being ignored just because this thread was swept into the wishlist section.

 

Proper bug reports get looked at:

 

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Awaiting: DCS F-15C

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2 minutes ago, comie1 said:

I implore you to watch my little playlist and tell me thats intended behaviour.

There are good examples of amraams losing targets with no reason. Thanks for those. That behaviour before this patch was very rare. I hope ED is going to fix what caused that in a hotfix soon.

Some of those examples contains near misses that i think should continue to happen, with the new physics it can be possible that in certain situations(drifting in direction change, noise from a CM) a missile can not reach the correct distance to detonate even if it guided itself to the target.

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It's unfortunate but true that all of the missiles in dcs are (for the lack of a more subjective statement) - Bad.

There are really two issues: 1) Guidance which is 100% ED 2) the third party missile API for missile features, kinematics, radar interaction, etc.

Guidance is a whole other can of worms... Missiles pull turns which lose their targets and have to be G-limited to not bleed All their speed... it's not ideal. All that being said, this is serviceable if the API is implemented.

Without seeing everything in the API, I can guess as to what it might contain... It would be a massive quality of life improvement for DCS is to complete the missile API and expose it to third parties. Once there is a working and well documented API then third party developers can finally start building weapons for their aircraft within the same physics framework AND finally get access to features which only some missiles have (like INS guidance).  

Please, prioritize effort into providing a working API and offload this to 3rd parties. This would be the #1 thing you can do to drastically improve multiplayer. 

 

If you took another pass at missile guidance and removed it's Bang-Bang control surface logic that would be a huge improvement too. 

 

 


Edited by DoorMouse
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  • ED Team

Fact is, this thread is not a bug report and does not belong in there. 

Again if you have a bug that has not been been reported to us before supply a short as possible track replay with any evidence you have, PM if necessary

thanks 

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