Jump to content

TGP vs Maverick cursor speed.


Recommended Posts

Is it normal that TGP cursor moves slow and is easy to point on target while Mavericks in bore or visual are very sensitive and hard to point on target?
I had that with TM Warthog, now with WinWing F16  Throttle (in both cases I use mini joystick on the throttle). Doing curves for axis wouldn't work since it affects both TGP and Mavericks cursor equally.

Is it going to stay like that or could we have slower cursor for Mavericks? Targeting with Mavs or even bore sighting these is a pain...
 

Cheers!

  • Like 2

System spec: Windows 10 Pro / i7-12700K / 3080Ti / 64GB / m2 SSD / Orion F16 Throttle / TM Warthog Stick / TPR Rudders / JetSeat / Reverb G2.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

It's frustrating but it looks like not many players are affected, I bet they don't use axis to slew Mavs. I posted about it a few months ago. I use mini joystick to move cursor and a hat switch to slew mavericks.

  • Like 1

i9 9700K @5.0GHz; 2080 Ti, 32GB RAM. Reverb G2; TM Warthog on VPC WarBRD Base, MFG Crosswind V3

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yep. That's why I always take TGP on board when going out with Mavs. It's so much more precise. But - yet - sometime I wish I had this VIS available just in case, but it's (seems) unmanageable on mini-joystick. 

 


Edited by MartinVoy

System spec: Windows 10 Pro / i7-12700K / 3080Ti / 64GB / m2 SSD / Orion F16 Throttle / TM Warthog Stick / TPR Rudders / JetSeat / Reverb G2.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

With currently broken SPI you cannot lock a moving target with TGP and hand it over to maverick. Slewing maverick is the only option right now.

i9 9700K @5.0GHz; 2080 Ti, 32GB RAM. Reverb G2; TM Warthog on VPC WarBRD Base, MFG Crosswind V3

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 5 weeks later...
On 5/18/2022 at 10:26 PM, Marklar said:

It's frustrating but it looks like not many players are affected, I bet they don't use axis to slew Mavs. I posted about it a few months ago. I use mini joystick to move cursor and a hat switch to slew mavericks.

I have the same issue, very hard to even boresight the mavs while in the air. Cursor speed needs to be equalized to tgp or something of the sort, as changing the curves will make it harder to use the tgp and radar.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...

It's one of those unpleasantness things in your favorite model 😉 I was wondering on the same issue.

From my side I can add that, it's not the minimal speed that's is the problem, but that the cursor moves in "digital" manner even if it is driven by analog mini-joystick. Even you scale the "radar cursor slew axis" and clamp it hard, It still moves almost like it has 2 speeds. The slow one (which is still to fast) and the fast speed. There is almost nothing in between. 
When I  want to pinpoint the target, I need to bump the mini-joystick in order to move it a tiny bit. It is like using keyboard for car racing games 😉 (modulate in pulses in order to achieve the goal).

@NineLine can we ask for some look/thoughts on this? It is especially hard ot operate Mavs on high zoom level beyond range in VIS (preparing for attack).
Is the analog axis scaled differently (maybe log scale of some sort) for TGP and Mav?


Edited by Rosly
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was wondering if it is actually so hard in reality to use TGP and Mavericks as in DCS F-16.
Every time I need to correct TGP or Mav by a fraction, I struggle as I need to use the "pulse modulation" technique to move it just a bit (like I'm would play some old school racing sim on keyboard not actually controlling an analog joystick). Usually I overshoot. This very frustrating and also feels fake as the camera does not expose any inertia (rock steady jump).

I found out that implementation actually use 9 discrete levels for slew speed of TGP and 4 levels of slew rate for Mavericks.
This is weird as it would be intentional to make pilot such headache to actually limit the number of slew speed levels. Actually the analog joystick has like 16k levels and I cannot understand why imposing such limits would be beneficial to the pilot. By making levels discrete there is a lot of precision degradation in terms of control (yes I know the analog joysticks are usually digital but there are like 16k levels not 4!)

So I tried to confirm this behaviour in some "source" material and on videos I found it looks like despite the TGP is displaying the slew speed as single digit it is not constraining slew speed to discrete levels, or at least there is enough inertia in the movement which allows far more control to what we are used in DCS.


Here you can see pilot is moving the TGP very precisely in AREA mode with a lot of control.
It is totally opposite to what we see in DCS when you either have 0 movement or speed 1, than 2,3 etc which result in rock stady tracking and sudden jump while entering first speed.

Here is a similar video but for Maverick


You can clearly see the camera movement is smooth and pilot control it with ease.
It is far from those 4 speed levels we have in all Maverics in current F-16 model.

Would be great to discuss implementation based on material on which it was designed. Some other videos I found:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFj6f9L827A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=As1X6xBNEK0

And some other topics where more people are wondering about the same 
https://forum.dcs.world/topic/300116-tgp-vs-maverick-cursor-speed 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@silverdevil  This is not issue with the controller or minijoystick in it (dead zone or noise) if this is what you asking. 
I use Winwing Orion 2 and also have Thrustmaster T.16000M but as said it's not a point in noisy joystick.
The 9 discreet levels slew rate levels for TGP and 4 levels for MAV in DCS is easy to check by naked eye.
And I'm not talking about numbers which are displayed on TGP but actual slew speed and difference to reality.


Edited by Rosly
Link to comment
Share on other sites

understood. i have a warthog with the slew upgrade. i do not seem to have much different performance than your videos. i came from the T.16000M and i had success with it too. is there a way to adjust the slew rate levels in DCS? dunno.

AKA_SilverDevil AKA Forums My YouTube

“It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.” — Mark Twain

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, silverdevil said:

understood. i have a warthog with the slew upgrade. i do not seem to have much different performance than your videos. i came from the T.16000M and i had success with it too. is there a way to adjust the slew rate levels in DCS? dunno.

You can adjust the joysticks axis curve's but this is influencing the RAW input values which are then translated to 9 or 4 slew speed levels. You cannot change those sleew rates/speed, means you are only controlling relation between joysticks angle and preprogrammed slew rate levels (not the slew rate level itself).

And yes, that's another angle how this problem may be explained.

The implemented model of discrete levels for slew rate is the point, as mentioned in the topic. As seen in the videos there is no discrete sleew speeds in reality (at least the opposite can be seen on the videos from 90s I linked).

Hope someone from ED will appear in this topic and share a though on what material the implementation was based. As mentioned I'm not the only one who noticed this and being annoyed (maybe because F-16 is my favorite model 😉 and want to love it even more 😉

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Rosly said:

You can adjust the joysticks axis curve's but this is influencing the RAW input values which are then translated to 9 or 4 slew speed levels. You cannot change those sleew rates/speed, means you are only controlling relation between joysticks angle and preprogrammed slew rate levels (not the slew rate level itself).

And yes, that's another angle how this problem may be explained.

The implemented model of discrete levels for slew rate is the point, as mentioned in the topic. As seen in the videos there is no discrete sleew speeds in reality (at least the opposite can be seen on the videos from 90s I linked).

Hope someone from ED will appear in this topic and share a though on what material the implementation was based. As mentioned I'm not the only one who noticed this and being annoyed (maybe because F-16 is my favorite model 😉 and want to love it even more 😉

i am wondering and frankly i never have seen this suggestion. what effect does making the stick part of the slew longer? the joystick extensions certainly make fine tuned movements on a joystick easier. i am going to 3d print one to try. 

AKA_SilverDevil AKA Forums My YouTube

“It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.” — Mark Twain

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Rosly said:

Oh... by joystick axis I was having the minijoystick axis in mind. We talking about Radar/TGP/Mav slew rate here, not yaw, pitch etc rate. Those are not quantized.

yes thats what i meant too. i asked the question in the delta sims post too. seems simple enough to make a longer ministick.

AKA_SilverDevil AKA Forums My YouTube

“It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.” — Mark Twain

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh I get it now. You are talking about this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx29Fbb2Rqc
Wow I didn't know that it is originally a 4 way switch instead of analog joystick (do not have Warhog joy).
Eaah, so extending the ministick will not help you. You cannot change this minimal speed in rate 1 at which the TGP is start moving. My extending the minijoystick or changing the curves you only influence on when the rate 1 will kick in (sensor start to move). It will still move with this programmed minimal slew rate.

Too emphasize this even more 😉 (if not stressed enough 😄) imagine that if you were annoyed by having only 1 level of slew and you feel relief by switching to analog, you actually not getting full potential of it. You still have limited number of slew rates (9 for TGP and 4 for Mav, wonder how many for Radar).

There is still only 9 levels of slew of TGP and 4 for Mav.

Imagine how it would feel if it will be properly implemented. How precise it can be and should actually be if coded properly in the game.
As mentioned @MartinVoy and @Reflectedboth wonder about the same.
Though 9 slew rate levels for TGP is already making a difference comparing to 4 in Mav (those guys mentioned that in their discussion) it still should be far smother as there is no logical reason to quantize the TGP or Mav slew rate at all!

Hope that this is crystal clear now what I'm complaining about.

And on top of that, real TGP and Mav seeker heads are prone to at least some inertia, means the head cannot stop slewing right in the spot (especially from high slew rates).
Yes this is quite rapid but not as "pinpoint hard" as in current implementation of DCS, which is purely game outcome of it being not simulated properly.
Plus a whole other minor things like when plane is changing direction TGP should not shake like it is currently, which is purely effect of bug that came from probably some timing or data synchronization issues in the simulation of flight model of the plane and TGP tracking "simulation" (very noticeable when you track A-A like plane, you have 3 or 4 ghost images which came from different frames of picture).

A lot of issues there but lets stick to one.
I want to gather opinion and actual data/proff from you guys before making the bug report. The slew rate seems to be not quantized in reality and IMHO the current implementation is kind of shortcut in the code.
This unfortunately influence on realism and precision while using TGP and Mavs and is simply annoying that you need to fight with TGP targeting (specially in heat of battle).
This should be implemented better IMHO or if I'm wrong and there is actually a quantization in slew rate for sensors, let the proof for this appear in this thread.
As mentioned, I have found something opposite to current implementation on videos recorded in the 90s from the actual F-16 jet.


Edited by Rosly
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I reported it 7 months ago and there is at least one other thread about it. No one from ED bothered to acknowledge it so I would not expect a fix any time soon, if ever.

 

 

 

i9 9700K @5.0GHz; 2080 Ti, 32GB RAM. Reverb G2; TM Warthog on VPC WarBRD Base, MFG Crosswind V3

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 5 months later...

Well I can confirm having the same issue. My microstick axis (WinWing Orion) has been adjusted and works VERY smooth in all modes except the Mav Weapon page. It's frustrating to try moving a small amount to get lock. Sensitivity on the wep page needs some work. Since this thread is so old, I'm going to start a new thread. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...