So many weird map choices while avoiding the most obvious choice.

[truebrit]

Before I start, this is not a complaint, I love DCS and think ED and outside developers do amazing work and work very hard for the community, this was evident on the tireless work Mr Wagner put in getting the Apache released, we all know that wasn't easy. And there may be very valid reasons for decisions made by ED and Razbam etc, but some of the content we get I just don't understand, with planes I understand there is a limit on the info to build a module, but anyway...

1. Why the Falklands map? We have no official modules for that theatre. Putting a Sea Harrier skin on an AV-8B and fighting the A-4 Skyhawk mod is not reason enough for me to get excited about this map.

2. Why did they waste time on the Marianas map and subsequent China assets pack. Wouldn't it have made a lot more sense to complete/update the US/British/French assets and start work on a map with a theatre of interest, like maybe Iraq.

3. And now the biggest confusion of all as I just mentioned, Iraq. Why the Syria and Gulf maps instead of Iraq? Most of the jet modules we have in DCS  fought in the Gulf war, it is the most recent large scale war, a war that a large percentage of DCS users would have lived through and/or know so much about. Maybe it is the size of the map that held it back for so long? But for me having two maps on either side of Iraq but not the most obvious choice for a DCS map is mental torture lol.

If I could go back in time I would suggest ED and Razbam forget Marianas and the Falklands and join forces to make the Iraq map. I love DCS and as an aircraft simulator I am so thankful we have this, but for me a lot of the experience is missing without modules and assets that work together to complete a more immersive environment.

 

So Iraq please Mr Wagner.

[dr.barber]

Desert maps are endlessly sad. In any case, in Syria there are the sea, the mountains and the desert which make it a very diverse map. Then there's Cyprus, which is a disputed island, Israel, Jordan, etc. And pretty much every dcs plane or helicopter has flown over that territory from Gazelle to mi24, ka50, ah64d, f16, f15, mig21, mig29, su27, su33, l39, su25 and a10. I've had this map for over 6 months and I think I've only explored 10% of it, each time you discover something new. No the map of Syria is not beautiful it is fantastic! Iraq could be interesting but it would be really boring... Among other things, razbam is developing two new modules for this map: the tucano and the pucarà; the mb339 is also on the way, as well as the a4. I think that most users of DCS are fans of planes and helicopters and not of individual conflicts, so more planes means more fun!

Edited May 3, 2022 by dr.barber

[truebrit]

21 minutes ago, dr.barber said:

Iraq could be interesting but it would be really boring...

But we can re-create the Gulf War accurately with so many possibilities. I make loads of little missions with all current maps with fictitious scenarios but being able to fly from a Supercarrier from the Red sea or PG and attack deep inside Iraq would be so cool. So many real world missions to recreate. And the modules and assets we have, it's like ED sat down and said "ok lets make loads of Gulf War modules and assets" but they forgot the map lol.

[Rudel_chw]

33 minutes ago, dr.barber said:

I think that most users of DCS are fans of planes and helicopters and not of individual conflicts

Agree, that is my case … I prefer to have varied maps, would like Vietnam much more than an Irak one just for the tropical setting, while we have already loads of desert.

[truebrit]

1 hour ago, Rudel_chw said:

Agree, that is my case … I prefer to have varied maps, would like Vietnam much more than an Irak one just for the tropical setting, while we have already loads of desert.

If you want Vietnam for the "tropical setting" why not just use Marianas? Or maybe see if someone can fix the Vietnam mod for the Caucasus map. You wanting Vietnam because Marianas is not geed enough to pretend that it's Vietnam is the same reason a lot of people want Iraq. But what planes are you going to fly over Vietnam, not many choices until maybe in a few years time, and then I'll be pre-ordering the lot, but we have so many perfect modules for the Gulf War right now, that should be priority.

[Rudel_chw]

52 minutes ago, truebrit said:

If you want Vietnam for the "tropical setting" why not just use Marianas?

 

I am using it a lot, but it's like a glimpse of Vietnam, as it is really too small.

 

52 minutes ago, truebrit said:

But what planes are you going to fly over Vietnam, not many choices until maybe in a few years time

 

I have no problem with fictional scenarios, so I can just pretend that the War went for much longer and then fly the Tomcat off its coast, or I can use the excellent Skyhawk Mod, or I can pretend that Vietnam didnt unify 30 years ago and clash Su-27 against F-18 ... so many possibilities ... limiting oneself to just historical missions is too boring to be honest.

 

52 minutes ago, truebrit said:

... we have so many perfect modules for the Gulf War right now, that should be priority.

 

Those same modules can fly at Syria or Hormuz, Irak wouldn't be too diferent

[truebrit]

37 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:

I can pretend that Vietnam didnt unify 30 years ago and clash Su-27 against F-18

If you can pretend that well then I don't see why you would need ay other map ever in DCS, and why you would have a problem with ED giving us an Iraq map. Like I said before I want Vietnam also, but for an accurate re-creation of the Vietnam war. But I wish that we have maps modules and assets from different era's together, I think that would make sense for the future. Not a big deal, just a wish. I would still play every week anyway.

[Rudel_chw]

6 minutes ago, truebrit said:

why you would have a problem with ED giving us an Iraq map.

 

¿? ... where did I suggest that I had a problem with that? ... may I remind you that I entered this thread just to share the view of other user, "I think that most users of DCS are fans of planes and helicopters and not of individual conflicts".   You gave your view, I gave mine ... don't really feel like debating this for longer.

[TheBigTatanka]

Well, they hinted Afghanistan, and that would be cool. I think we have enough mid east maps as it is. I wouldn't buy an Iraq map, because the mid east maps we have are good enough substitutes. I've flown combat over iraq and Syria, and even i don't think we need an Iraq map -- Syria map is a good enough representation.

I'm pretty stoked about the Razbam south Atlantic map, that will give us some really distinct scenery.

Besides Vietnam, i would love to see more stateside training maps. Alaska would be amazing, as would the American Southwest around Luke AFB down to Holloman New Mexico -- iconic fighter country. A historical map of 1950s California would be great too. Model Edwards AFB and George AFB, and Norton.

Even a new England / north east USA map would be fantastic for the scenery and insane amounts of airports to explore.

But count me out for Iraq, I've seen enough of Iraq.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[truebrit]

1 hour ago, TheBigTatanka said:

Well, they hinted Afghanistan, and that would be cool. I think we have enough mid east maps as it is. I wouldn't buy an Iraq map, because the mid east maps we have are good enough substitutes. I've flown combat over iraq and Syria, and even i don't think we need an Iraq map -- Syria map is a good enough representation.

I'm pretty stoked about the Razbam south Atlantic map, that will give us some really distinct scenery.

Besides Vietnam, i would love to see more stateside training maps. Alaska would be amazing, as would the American Southwest around Luke AFB down to Holloman New Mexico -- iconic fighter country. A historical map of 1950s California would be great too. Model Edwards AFB and George AFB, and Norton.

Even a new England / north east USA map would be fantastic for the scenery and insane amounts of airports to explore.

But count me out for Iraq, I've seen enough of Iraq.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
 

That seems to be what a lot of people who are not that bothered about Iraq say, they talk about different scenery and as you mentioned lots of new places("airports") to visit. I would have thought that FS2020 would be the game for that rather than DCS. As for training maps I think that would be a waste as you can train all other the world, I'd rather have a theatre of war. 

 

Look at what an Iraq map could give DCS. Six Day War / Suez Crisis / Gulf War / Iraq War / Iran-Iraq war as well as many other minor skirmishes(most we already have though). Apart from the fact that this is top of my Wishlist for the next map, I also think it makes the most sense for now.

 

[Rudel_chw]

42 minutes ago, truebrit said:

Look at what an Iraq map could give DCS. Six Day War / Suez Crisis

 

Just a little detail, those two didn't took place at Iraq.

[truebrit]

1 hour ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

Just a little detail, those two didn't took place at Iraq.

The Iraq map I posted above includes those areas of conflict. The Iraq map would have to have the Persian Gulf and the Red Sea for the Super Carriers, that's why the photo I posted goes a little further to the South.

[Tree_Beard]

How great would it be if ED just allowed the community to build maps.

That way they could stick to what they do best - creating complex modules to fill the battlespace. 

 

[Rudel_chw]

1 hour ago, Tree_Beard said:

How great would it be if ED just allowed the community to build maps.

 

Have you tought about how many man-hours go into creating a DCS Map?  .. Razbam has a two-men team working on the South Atlantic Map and it has taken two years at least ... can we really expect the "community" (who are those people anyway) to take up such a job?  Do we expect them to do it for free? Would you do such a work?

Edited May 3, 2022 by Rudel_chw

[TheBigTatanka]

 
Have you tought about how many man-hours go into creating a DCS Map?  .. Razbam has a two-men team working on the South Atlantic Map and it has taken two years at least ... can we really expect the "community" (who are those people anyway) to take up such a job?  Do we expect them to do it for free? Would you do such a work?

Flight simmers have a long history of generosity and producing freeware for one another. This is a community in a real sense, many people here have known one another for decades and have been simming for 30+ years. There's also a lot of talent, and a lot of passion for bringing to life the aircraft, environments, and systems that we care about. I spent an entire summer in college developing a freeware Mojave desert scenery for FSX back in the day with photo real scenery, custom objects and airfields, and a new terrain mesh. It was awesome, and i never thought of charging for such a thing.

I would love if the map making tools were available to the public and groups of people could tackle maps together, so long as they were always free. I don't think that's the business model that ED envisions though.

Ideally the sim eventually transitions to a new terrain engine and a global map system. I think the challenge with that (in a combat sim) has always been the need to have damage models for all the building and the ability to route the AI vehicle traffic, and the ability to generate bomb impact craters in believable ways.

Again..... Shamelessly..... I think we have enough middle east maps. How about a new Zealand or Spain or Norway map? I don't care about conflict regions at all. Give me pretty scenery and a historic training airspace all day long. Right now, 99% of my flying in this sim has been on the NTTR map since it released, even though I buy all the maps. I just can't bring myself to fly training ops elsewhere. And the NTTR is a great map.


Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[Gambit21]

7 hours ago, truebrit said:

I also think it makes the most sense for now.

 

 

 

Nah...I don't care if they never do that map.

The South Atlantic map has so many possibilities...that's all I care about for the moment. Need that map.

 

I'd rather see a Fallon map, or the NTTR map extended to include Fallon, with target areas/objects part of the stock map.

I don't need another sand box. Vietnam/Laos....then let's go to the Pacific...Solomons, Philippines...

[Dangerzone]

For me, I can understand why ED did what they did.

Marianas - this seems like a bit of a 'test case' scenario of some new type of development. How detailed can we make the map. How much can we play with. Marianas gave them the option of doing this on a small land area (so far less development than doing the same on a larger playing field), and after the test case - gave us what they did for free - so no complains there, and for a free map it makes sense to go with a smaller area land mass too. If they had done this on a larger scale, and it failed, or caused the performance issues it already does for many - but on a paid module - well... just look at how some people are upset over a free module like this...

Syria - this is an incredibly beautiful area that gives mission designers a vast array of terrain to deal with, from desert to sea, coastal to mountain areas, etc. A huge amount of variety and options for mission designers and players alike in a single map. The comment about if you want different scenery go to FS2020 is a little short sighted. Different scenery isn't just about eye candy. It can result in different needs and caters for a wider variety of aircraft. With the expansion into more helicopter modules - Syria gives the option for a variety of different types of closer combat areas as well (natively with the predefined airfields) and makes for a great ground for both fixed wing and rotary aircraft. Syria IMO is a huge success and I understand and appreciate why it was chosen. 

There's 3rd parties making these maps, and obviously they are going to go with what they think will be the post practical from a business perspective as well. 

TBH - since I already have Persian gulf - I personally have little interest in an Iraq map at this point in time, and for me - it's probably a map I wouldn't purchase if it was released now. Even so - I can still appreciate and understand that others feel different and the reasons why.

Looking at the map posted of Iraq - I think it's unrealistic for ED to implement - due to it's size. I'd imagine Iraq would need to be much smaller and focused on a lesser area to work with DCS's current engine. I mean - the Iraq map posted includes ALL of the Syria map already - and additional areas probably 5x Syria in size. 

Who knows - maybe a roadmap is to do that region, and Syria was developed as Stage #1, and they'll add to that until the map includes Syria right through to Persia gulf - and give you Iraq in between - but at the moment I don't think the engine is at a level where it could handle that. 

I appreciate that different people have different reasons for flying DCS - from the absolute purist who only wants to replicate real combat missions in the same aircraft and same way right through to the simmer who just wants to enjoy these aircraft in the best battle scenario for entertainment, or will put a carrier in a WW2 situation to replicate a movie they once saw.

A simple look at some of the more popular servers online (*cough* *cough* air quake) show that the reasons people fly are vast and varied even though I have no interest in that style of game play.

I occasionally observe some people getting upset at others not having the same perspectives, or think that this sim shouldn't be for them if they don't use it in the same way - sadly suggesting they go FS2020 or War Thunder instead. This at the same time failing to appreciate that so much has been brought to DCS because of it's paying customer base - and if DCS was limited to only one type of group of people - the chances are they'd have a lot less than they currently do - and probably at a greater price too.

Sure - I look at the airquake servers, sometimes shake my head at some of the youtube video's I see online, and even though I don't appreciate that style of gameplay - I appreciate that others are appreciating it. More financial contributors to the DCS community and more customers enjoying DCS can only be a win for all.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Dangerzone

[TheBigTatanka]

DangerZone for ED community manager! Well said.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

[Stratos]

Some months ago this post was open with a very interesting Iraq area represented.

 

I see that area more feasible (check attached picture), and will allow for 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war, the 1990 Kuwait invasion and Desert Shield, and the 1991 Desert Storm, we could also use for the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Of course we miss tons of the used airfields for those operations, but we need to make a compromise somewhere. Me as truebrit think that our plane set fits that scenario and map so well that is sad not to see this map in DCS.

[Tree_Beard]

15 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

Have you tought about how many man-hours go into creating a DCS Map?  .. Razbam has a two-men team working on the South Atlantic Map and it has taken two years at least ... can we really expect the "community" (who are those people anyway) to take up such a job?  Do we expect them to do it for free? Would you do such a work?

 

Yes

[truebrit]

7 hours ago, Stratos said:

Some months ago this post was open with a very interesting Iraq area represented.

 

I see that area more feasible (check attached picture), and will allow for 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war, the 1990 Kuwait invasion and Desert Shield, and the 1991 Desert Storm, we could also use for the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Of course we miss tons of the used airfields for those operations, but we need to make a compromise somewhere. Me as truebrit think that our plane set fits that scenario and map so well that is sad not to see this map in DCS.

 

Yeah, that map look more realistic as to what we can have in game. Loads of good Gulf War target there.

[FlankerKiller]

On 5/3/2022 at 2:01 PM, truebrit said:

That seems to be what a lot of people who are not that bothered about Iraq say, they talk about different scenery and as you mentioned lots of new places("airports") to visit. I would have thought that FS2020 would be the game for that rather than DCS. As for training maps I think that would be a waste as you can train all other the world, I'd rather have a theatre of war. 

 

Look at what an Iraq map could give DCS. Six Day War / Suez Crisis / Gulf War / Iraq War / Iran-Iraq war as well as many other minor skirmishes(most we already have though). Apart from the fact that this is top of my Wishlist for the next map, I also think it makes the most sense for now.

 

Now that would be a map! If we could do them that big it would be truly amazing. 

[upyr1]

On 5/2/2022 at 7:31 PM, truebrit said:

2. Why did they waste time on the Marianas map and subsequent China assets pack. Wouldn't it have made a lot more sense to complete/update the US/British/French assets and start work on a map with a theatre of interest, like maybe Iraq.

There were good reasons to do the Mariana. First we have the F4U and F-4 Phantom II coming up, so Eagle needs to come up with a way to model a jungle. Right now the CPU over head is high and the trees are made of stalinium. Any possible Vietnam or Pacific theater map will be unplayable. Next if I remember right Eagle wants to have  the date determine the map so we can have a theater in different eras. The only problem I see with the Mariana's is ED needs to do more with the naval assets. As we have an excellent sandbox for naval battles. I'd love to see cyclic ops the Chinese type 1 and type 2 carriers. The list goes on but the ability to have a campaign where I'm fighting an enemy fleet and then supporting a landing to retake the Marians either a historic 1940s or a hypothetical World War III would be awesome. 

 

On 5/2/2022 at 7:31 PM, truebrit said:

1. Why the Falklands map? We have no official modules for that theatre. Putting a Sea Harrier skin on an AV-8B and fighting the A-4 Skyhawk mod is not reason enough for me to get excited about this map.

 My understanding it is because Razbam has the following aircraft are planned for DCS 

IA-58 Pucara 
Mirage III (or) IAI Dagger (either one, not both)
Dassault Super Etendard
Sea Harrier FRS.1

as well as a asset pack. In short a full ecco system for the Fauklands. 

While I would rather not have another desert map, I think a Iraq map would be fine if it could connect the Syria and Persian gulf maps

 

[Stratos]

From top of my head, and please correct me If I'm wrong, in the proposed map the following flyable (or soon to be) DCS planes and helos have fought:

- MiG-21: Iran-Iraq War, Invasion of Kuwait, Desert Storm. Iraq

- MiG-23: Iran-Iraq War, Invasion of Kuwait, Desert Storm. Iraq

- MiG-29: Iran-Iraq War, Invasion of Kuwait, Desert Storm. Iraq

- Su-25: Iran-Iraq War, Invasion of Kuwait, Desert Storm. Iraq

- Mirage F1: Iran-Iraq War, Invasion of Kuwait, Desert Storm. (This one also fought with some coallition countries during ODS) Iraq, Qatar, France, Kuwait

- Mi-24: Iran-Iraq War, Invasion of Kuwait, Desert Storm. Iraq

- Mi-8: Iran-Iraq War, Invasion of Kuwait, Desert Storm. Iraq

- Bo-105 : Iran-Iraq War, Invasion of Kuwait, Desert Storm. Iraq

- F-5E: Iran-Iraq War. Iran, RSAF

- F-4E: Iran-Iraq War. Iran 

- F-14A and B:  Iran-Iraq War, Desert Shield, Desert Storm, Iraqi Freedom. (again, used in Iran during first Gulf War and for the USN during Desert Shield and ODS). Iran, USN

- F-15C: Desert Shield, Desert Storm, Iraqi Freedom. USAF, RSAF

- F-16C: Desert Shield, Desert Storm, Iraqi Freedom. USAF

- F/A-18C: Desert Shield, Desert Storm, Iraqi Freedom. USN, Australia

- A-7E: Desert Shield, Desert Storm, Iraqi Freedom. USN

- F-15E: Desert Shield, Desert Storm, Iraqi Freedom. USA

- A-10: Desert Shield, Desert Storm, Iraqi Freedom (A-10C). USA

- Uh-1H Huey: Iran-Iraq War, Desert Shield, Desert Storm. Iran, US Army

- S-342 Gazelle: Iran-Iraq War, Invasion of Kuwait, Desert Storm. (This one also fought with some coallition countries during ODS). Iraq, British Army, France

- Ah-64 Apache: Desert Storm, Iraqi Freedom. US Army

- Oh-58 Kiowa: Desert Storm, Iraqi Freedom. US Army

- Av-8B Night Attack: Desert Storm, Iraqi Freedom. USMC

- Mirage 2000: Desert Shield, Desert Storm. France

 

And the excellent mods of:

- A-4 Skyhawk: Invasion of Kuwait, Desert Storm. Kuwait

- Uh-60L: Desert Shield, Desert Storm, Iraqi Freedom. US Army

 

The also flyable L-39 was used by Iraq, but IIRC only as a trainer, I've read some reports saying the Iraqis used them during Iran-Iraq war, but cannot 100% confirm it.

 

In some cases the exact MARK used during those wars and our flyable is not correct, but I think the list is pretty impressive, in fact seeing the list it makes no sense that we still don't have this map. My two cents.

 

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by Stratos

[truebrit]

On 5/5/2022 at 8:41 AM, upyr1 said:

There were good reasons to do the Mariana. First we have the F4U and F-4 Phantom II coming up, so Eagle needs to come up with a way to model a jungle. Right now the CPU over head is high and the trees are made of stalinium. Any possible Vietnam or Pacific theater map will be unplayable. Next if I remember right Eagle wants to have  the date determine the map so we can have a theater in different eras. The only problem I see with the Mariana's is ED needs to do more with the naval assets. As we have an excellent sandbox for naval battles. I'd love to see cyclic ops the Chinese type 1 and type 2 carriers. The list goes on but the ability to have a campaign where I'm fighting an enemy fleet and then supporting a landing to retake the Marians either a historic 1940s or a hypothetical World War III would be awesome. 

 

 My understanding it is because Razbam has the following aircraft are planned for DCS 

IA-58 Pucara 
Mirage III (or) IAI Dagger (either one, not both)
Dassault Super Etendard
Sea Harrier FRS.1

as well as a asset pack. In short a full ecco system for the Fauklands. 

While I would rather not have another desert map, I think a Iraq map would be fine if it could connect the Syria and Persian gulf maps

 

I agree with what you say there, but it also proves my points. These maps will be great in 5-6 years time. Right now Iraq make much more sense.