A simple solution of cockpit click in VR: Finger-ring touch mouse

[Jenson]

On 5/4/2022 at 9:57 PM, Tom Kazansky said:

I'm looking forward to reading your review.

Any chance you can use it with the left hand so you don't have to get off the stick and don't have the mentioned problems?

A video that shows how this thing works with DCS-MFD-buttons would be very appreciated.

Here's my review. 

[Jenson]

On 5/7/2022 at 10:51 PM, ackattacker said:

I am curious to see the review of this, but I have my doubts. As a “poor man’s pointctrl” it seems to miss the essential feature that pointctrl is calibrated and tracks in virtual space, so that you point more or less directly at each switch and knob. This finger mouse just tracks relative motion using accelerometers, so I am picturing a situation where you can move the mouse pointer by waving your hand around, but it will have no relation to the actual thing you are trying to point at. In which case why not just use a trackball. 
 

 

Pls check out the review in the post above ↑

[Drac]

I don't recall seeing a post addressing the use of this device in the left hand...did I miss it.  I'm a PointCTRL user myself.

[Sielu]

For those with leap motion hardware, this feels like it may fit well with @frenzon's fingers app:

 

[Jenson]

34 minutes ago, Drac said:

I don't recall seeing a post addressing the use of this device in the left hand...did I miss it.  I'm a PointCTRL user myself.

No you can't use it in your left hand because the mouse movement will be up side down. 

[Viper1970]

This shouldn't be a big problem. There must be tools to get, which are able to set the mouse axis mirrored or anything else. I had something a while ago, but couldn't remember the name now. I used it for an old Logitech Laptop Trackman, which I mounted mirrored on my throttle back those days.

AutoHotkey can also do such things

[lucky-hendrix]

Looks interesting !

I don't understand the fascination with the PointCtlr type device. In my experience a trackball + just moving your head to quickly point at what you want to activate works great and is very fast with some practice.

This could be just a bit sleeker than a trackball. But really it would be a lot more beneficial if it can be mirrored to be used on the left hand.

Edited May 28, 2022 by lucky-hendrix

[dburne]

1 hour ago, lucky-hendrix said:

Looks interesting !

I don't understand the fascination with the PointCtlr type device. In my experience a trackball + just moving your head to quickly point at what you want to activate works great and is very fast with some practice.

This could be just a bit sleeker than a trackball. But really it would be a lot more beneficial if it can be mirrored to be used on the left hand.

 

 

Point Control is about the closest thing one can get to actually reaching out and flipping the switches. For me it is an incredible immersion device. Absolutely loving mine and so glad I waited for it. 

[edmuss]

Apart from leap motion where you actually have to reach out and flip the switch? Granted pointCTRL's useability is probably a little more reliable* but that's mainly down to the ED implementation, to me leap is more immersive because there are no additional buttons to press or extra devices on your hands.

*as it's little more than a finger controlled mouse pointer with (I believe) zero interaction in the 3D space

[pierscockey]

[pierscockey]

The above photos are a cheap finger mouse I bought a couple of years ago.

Top pic is how it’s supposed to be worn, bottom is how I now use it.  

I didn’t really like using it as it was a bit crap, but that was until I fixed it to my throttle with some tape. 

Now I have my fingers resting just above left and right mouse buttons, and a roller ball and scroll button just below those.

I also have PointCTRL but can’t use it properly at the moment due to needing blinds in my sim room.  Whilst I really like it, I’m not massively missing it now I have this. 

Edited June 2, 2022 by pierscockey

[dburne]

14 hours ago, pierscockey said:

The above photos are a cheap finger mouse I bought a couple of years ago.

I didn’t really like using it as it was a bit crap, but that was until I fixed it to my throttle.

Now I have my fingers resting just above left and right mouse buttons, and a roller ball and scroll button just below those.

I also have PointCTRL but can’t use it properly at the moment due to needing blinds in my sim room.  Whilst I really like it, I’m not massively missing it now I have this. 

Re: Point CTRL which is an awesome device:

I have a window in front of me that had just regular white blind on it. Caused me major IR interference with Point CTRL. Then wife hanged a dark curtain over it, but it had light areas too and still I would get interference.

Then she went out to the Family Dollar store and found a black sun block-out blind. A cheap 6 dollar blind that was paper and stick on. She just stuck it on over existing blind and voila! No more IR interference whatsoever. And I mean that sun beats down on that window hard during the day. She even picked up another to have as a spare if needed. But yeah absolutely loving my Point CTRL, now could not imagine flying DCS without it.

Edited June 1, 2022 by dburne

[Tom Kazansky]

On 5/28/2022 at 12:19 PM, Jenson said:

Here's my review. 

thanks. seems to work better than I thought.

[Hempstead]

I quite like the way Oculus Touch Controller is implemented in DCS. It's not perfect, but it's useable. The laser pointer thing lets me not have to reach out to the virtual switch/button location and ram my finger tips into something hard IRL. Plus, the LeapMotion thing never worked on my machine (no video on Windows at all, never mind DCS). At a flick of my wrist, I can easily reach any button/switch in the cockpit.

The only gripes I have are:

1. Every time I need to flip a switch or press a button, I have to reach out and grab the touch controller (it's right in front of the throttle/stick, right next to the TM logo) but still it's annoying having to fumble with the controller.

2. There is no HAT on the touch controller to bind to the dobber...

Well, for #2, I configured the Left: Y as a modifier and then use the stick trim HAT + plus the Left: Y for dobber control; not ideal, but workable. But #1.... well in the redneck test in the video linked below, I simply drilled two holes in the touch controller's battery cover, uses a twist tie as hinge, and the factory lanyard as the anchor. This is just to test whether the whole idea is gaga... and where the attachment point is ideal. The final implementation will be sewn into the compression glove I wore in the video. I tried an USAF issued glove... don't like it... too thick for my taste. Up to you really.

 

 

 

Edit: Flew an F16 aerial refueling with the redneck version. Worked great! The controller did slide on the lanyard... out of position. But a twist of the controller 360 degree, pivoting on the twist tie center worked great in preventing it from sliding on the lanyard. Of course, the final version sewn one would have this problem.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Hempstead

[Tusk.V]

I'm on the list for Point CTRL and can't wait until I get one. Probably going to be a while though.

Here's another one I found on Amazon: Wearable Finger Mouse

I might give that one a shot.

[silverdevil]

@Tusk.V I was looking at these too. I would be interested in your experience.  Good luck.

[Hempstead]

 

Here's another test. The difference between this one and the previous one is simply the way the lanyard is "routed." This one proves that a glove is not needed. A bit creative "routing" of the lanyard is sufficient.

However, it also demonstrated that the lanyard needs to be longer and have two locking slides. Perhaps Velcro? Perhaps some more comfortable cloth tapes, ropes, whatever, and some finishing touches instead of just a twist tie.

 

Edit: Actually, a lady’s bra strap would probably do well instead of the lanyard. But I think I can do better with some cotton woven twill tapes and 3D printed buckles.

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by Hempstead

[Tusk.V]

27 minutes ago, Hempstead said:

 

Here's another test. The difference between this one and the previous one is simply the way the lanyard is "routed." This one proves that a glove is not needed. A bit creative "routing" of the lanyard is sufficient.

However, it also demonstrated that the lanyard needs to be longer and have two locking slides. Perhaps Velcro? Perhaps some more comfortable cloth tapes, ropes, whatever, and some finishing touches instead of just a twist tie.

 

 

Check this out: https://www.etsy.com/listing/870408862/oculus-quest-2-and-quest-1-rift-s-flight

Or: https://www.etsy.com/listing/1035121122/oculus-quest-hotas-flight-stick-system?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=flight+stick&ref=sc_gallery-1-1&frs=1&plkey=b4aeb006d892d4d84a5c14876e40f2aa92950863%3A1035121122

Maybe a good option?

Edited June 2, 2022 by Tusk.V

[Viper1970]

The way I will do it in my pit. I simply added to identical trackballs which are mirrored to each other (left and right hand versions). Those are mouted on holders which places the trackballs above my HOTAS and the consoles. The plates the trackballs are on top of will be changed with printed mounts that fit the exact shape of the trackballs and are more angled towards me. I have a Reverb G2 and don't like the VR controllers very much.

[Hempstead]

9 hours ago, Tusk.V said:

Check this out: https://www.etsy.com/listing/870408862/oculus-quest-2-and-quest-1-rift-s-flight

Or: https://www.etsy.com/listing/1035121122/oculus-quest-hotas-flight-stick-system?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=flight+stick&ref=sc_gallery-1-1&frs=1&plkey=b4aeb006d892d4d84a5c14876e40f2aa92950863%3A1035121122

Maybe a good option?

 

That is not what the attachment scheme is supposed to solve. I am not using the Touch Controllers to replace my Warthog stick. I am using the Touch Controller as my hands to flip switches and dials, as designed by ED. Like I said, The attachment is only supposed to solve the problem of having to reach out to grab and fumble the Touch Controllers placed right next to my Warthog before I can use them to flip switches and dials, and for selecting comm options instead of pressing the F* keys.

 

Moreover, this thread is about using a mouse ring as your hand to flip switches and dials in VR. What I was saying is… I don’t need a mouse ring to flip switches and dials. I use this attachment scheme to help me flip switches and dials with the Touch Controllers.  Viper1970 is saying he uses two trackballs mounted in the pit to flip switches and dials. I considered trackballs as an option, but didn’t like the idea, because I will still need to reach out and fumble with my hands on the trackballs. I suppose with practice, one can minimized the fumbling and be proficient with trackballs. It’s really down to personal taste. There is no right or wrong answer here.

[Tusk.V]

6 hours ago, Hempstead said:

That is not what the attachment scheme is supposed to solve. I am not using the Touch Controllers to replace my Warthog stick. I am using the Touch Controller as my hands to flip switches and dials, as designed by ED. Like I said, The attachment is only supposed to solve the problem of having to reach out to grab and fumble the Touch Controllers placed right next to my Warthog before I can use them to flip switches and dials, and for selecting comm options instead of pressing the F* keys.

 

Moreover, this thread is about using a mouse ring as your hand to flip switches and dials in VR. What I was saying is… I don’t need a mouse ring to flip switches and dials. I use this attachment scheme to help me flip switches and dials with the Touch Controllers.  Viper1970 is saying he uses two trackballs mounted in the pit to flip switches and dials. I considered trackballs as an option, but didn’t like the idea, because I will still need to reach out and fumble with my hands on the trackballs. I suppose with practice, one can minimized the fumbling and be proficient with trackballs. It’s really down to personal taste. There is no right or wrong answer here.

Yes, I understand. I was thinking this could be similar to what you are looking for.

It is on a magnetic mount so you could mount it directly next to your joystick or throttle and it would be a good position to grab and flip switches. Just a thought.

[Hempstead]

The real implementation of the Monkey On The Back (of my hands) Oculus Touch Attachment implementation.

It's made out of a piece of 3/4" Woven Webbing, and 3/4" plastic clip. Simple. Just two rows of simple bad sewing (two square and a cross sewing is probably what a profession product should have, but that might stiffen the part of the loop that I want flexible.), and a quick twist of stainless steel aviation safety wire to secure the sewn webbing end loop (uses an M2 screw for each loop forming when sewing) to the Touch Controller. That's it. Takes about 20 minutes to make it (I did say bad sewing... here also I am also admitting slow sewing).

The make and usage needs a bit of a reminder.

1. You must have a bit of the webbing "hanging" length between the plastic clip and the loop end, otherwise you can't "swing" it clear your thumb and allow it to have the length to wrap around your thumb and hang there naturally by gravity. If you leave not enough length, it will twist and "strangle" your thumb, making it very uncomfortable.

2. You should "flick" the controller on/off by lifting your elbow up and hand down using the gravity to clear the handle part of the controller to clear your thumb. A bit of a coordinated "swing" of the elbow... otherwise, the handle part can get knocked around by your thumb and get tangled up.

 

Don't use 1" webbing... thinking that the wider it is, the less it will get rotated. 1" is too wide for the space between your thumb and the root of the index finger, making it very uncomfortable. 3/4" is about the widest for my Large hand (measured for gloves).

 

I hereby declare this design of mine in the public domain. Do whatever you wish with it. Attribution will be appreciated, but not required.

 

Apology for the very unprofessional abrupt end of the video... I ain't no professional in this anyway.

 

Edit: Note that you may or may not want to do the right hand attachment. Because, the movement of the right stick tend to trigger the Touch Controller bleeping/vibrating to signal you that it has just been activated. It's very distracting to me when I am doing aerial refueling, the right controller constantly nagged me for nothing. I mostly use the right hand controller for cold start and pretty much everything on the ground, but in the air, I tend to use left hand controller for pretty much everything. I did implement the right hand attachment as well for the sake of symmetry, but does not strap it on when flying, instead I place it in front of the stick as it was.

 

 

Edited June 5, 2022 by Hempstead

[Hempstead]

The left hand only Monkey On My Back Attachment, after checking the [VR] --> Only when the palm grip ... (or something like that), and turning off the tool tips, is actually quite good. I definitely will give up my slot for Point Ctrl.

The need to check the box so it only activates switches when the palm grip is activated is because when the left touch controller is hanging next to the thumb, the virtual finger tips are perilously close to the landing gear switch in F16 when the throttle is advanced to the military power or further. This is particularly bad when doing aerial refueling where you constantly move the throttle forward/backward to adjust your position under the KC135. Well, I never like the finger tip activation thing anyway (hitting my finger tips hard on real world objects are quite painful.). Moreover, even without the attachment, I often accidentally hit some switches around RWR when trying to place the controller in front of my throttle/stick anyway.

One additional tip to make this attachment is that you will need to have enough length of webbing for the controller to hang right next to your thumb comfortably. If you don't, you are going to have a lot of trouble trying to get it from your grip to the other side of your thumb.

It will only cost you less than USD $17 in material, for two, (less if you 3D print the buckle). Give it a try.

 

[Mike Wazowsky]

[Dogmanbird]

I too tried the trackball, 3d mouse, air mouse, finger mouse options. I found it difficult to keep my head still while scrolling and turning dials etc. Often the white dot pointer would vanish or never appear to begin with.

I eventually ended up with touch screens using the freeware Open Stage Control program to create all my switches and dials. Each switch is a modifier and requires the rotary encoder (attached to my joystick) to activate the switch or turn a dial, therefore no accidental activations and I can look elsewhere while tweaking things. The screens are positioned so that I can see them through the nose gap on the VR headset. 

It also has tabs for quickly switching layouts when changing aircraft. This is the best I've come up with so far, though there may be better options out there which may make me discard it all and start again for the 5th time

 

Edited August 6, 2023 by Dogmanbird