How to fit this helicopter into the meta outside of cold war servers

[Chad Vader]

Hi!

I just want to say I love this module, I love how it flies compared to the apache, which flies more like a bus loaded with pigs moving about.

However, I fly quite regularly with a group and they use missions that contain mainly AAA and tanks as threats, little infantry.

I can be semi useful with a AT6 setup but outside of that I have to stay at standoff range.  I once popped up over some trees and expended my entire rocket load to kill a zu23 truck which was fun but then had to RTB obvs.

The gun pods for example, have no penetration and are largely useless.  Some of the rockets are ok but the range is not standoff.  The forward facing gun is useful but again im usually chewed up as I fly into range.

Any tips on engaging tanks and or AAA using the hind?  I know the doctrine is mainly CAS boots on the ground flying artillery support but looking to fit the helicopter into the current meta im in.  Links to video examples would be awesome.

Thanks.

 

[AeriaGloria]

54 minutes ago, Chad Vader said:

Hi!

I just want to say I love this module, I love how it flies compared to the apache, which flies more like a bus loaded with pigs moving about.

However, I fly quite regularly with a group and they use missions that contain mainly AAA and tanks as threats, little infantry.

I can be semi useful with a AT6 setup but outside of that I have to stay at standoff range.  I once popped up over some trees and expended my entire rocket load to kill a zu23 truck which was fun but then had to RTB obvs.

The gun pods for example, have no penetration and are largely useless.  Some of the rockets are ok but the range is not standoff.  The forward facing gun is useful but again im usually chewed up as I fly into range.

Any tips on engaging tanks and or AAA using the hind?  I know the doctrine is mainly CAS boots on the ground flying artillery support but looking to fit the helicopter into the current meta im in.  Links to video examples would be awesome.

Thanks.

 

The higher the threat, the more ATGM you need. I love rockets the most, but for high threat you need 8x 9M120 Ataka. You have 20% more range the. AT-6 9M114 Shturm.

Use Petro and Ataka to pick off the all the high threats targets and tanks you can’t kill with rockets. When you’ve cleared enough of the dangerous threats, go in an use rockets first since they can be rendered unusable by wing damage. 
 

S-8OFP2 is not accurate with auto CCIP in a traditional attack beyond 1 km depending on conditions. But S-8KOM/S-5KO can be accurate to the 3.5 km limit of the sight. That’s beyond Shilka range.

The farther you are, the larger your rocket salvo will need to be to score a hit. I personally recomend S-5KO as ED applied a 50% explosive damage coefficient to S-8KOM if it hits ground or object, leaving you with barely more damage per rocket then S-5KO, but you can take 60% more S-5 rockets. And they are lighter increasing fuel you can take by either 12% or increasing power margin during damaged engine emergencies. S-5Ko Also has no recoil while all S-8 do, which makes S-5 absurdly more accurate. They can still kill T-55 or damage T-72. 
 

You can read my weapons guide on the main Mi-24 forum if you want to make the most of the sight and avoid all of the things that make it un accurate. 

Utilize your speed, low altitude, 2 G is the tightest you can turn below 1000m and below 11,000 kg. 
 

Be cautious, better to kill a few enemies and be safe then be reckless and not able to make it home. 

[admiki]

Use cover as much as possible. If your targets are out in the open there is nothing you can do.

Time to turn turret around is modelled, so if you can pop real close to your targets behind a cover and surprise them, keep speed and overfly them, jinking while running away should give you some chances. If you are unfortunate to pop up right in front of their guns, break away and pray.

[AeriaGloria]

6 minutes ago, Gypsy 1-1 said:

Yeah this has always bugged me about the AI - they are seemingly always manning all turrets specifically looking for air targets at all times. Ideally they should react after a first pass/attack only. Obviously everthing outside of radar guided AAA and short range SAM's should not be this aware.

Agree. Part of it to me is also, crews In tanks/IFV/APC know where you are at all times. Whereas in reality there are looking a periscope like Mi-24 CPG. At best they have guy in the machine gun telling them where to point. I appreciate that DCS simulates knowing where something is by hearing, but it would be nice if they really could only find you by looking through a straw the way I assume it is in reality. 
 

And not just that, it sometimes seems they can pull off extreme lead angles at max range. Such ranges and lead needing huge off boresight targeting make me question, could the sight they have in that Tank/APC/IFV really have the FOV to be able to pull that much lead and correct for distance that much while maintains a view of me? 
 

It’s one of those things where I wonder if it was made more realistic, how much more effective we could be

And that’s not mentioning damage models. Tanks having machine guns that can be fired and aimed without exposing a crew member and have same life bar as the entire tank (imagine if the external machine gun on tanks had a separate life bar on par with infantry….). Not being able to score mission kills easily unlit you hit a specific amount of damage that disabled their movement/weapons. Tank/BMP tracks are also protected by their armor/have same health bar as entire vehicle. 
 

Needless to say, if you can be a bad ass in DCS with tons of vehicles all around, getting good at weaving back and forth and only flying straight to fire and aim weapons, Getting low and using obstacles to prevent fire, you have achieved the pinnacle of Mi-24 combat 

[Chad Vader]

Yea, I agree with all points made here.  THe ground units seem like they are sharpshooters looking straight at you after a pop up.  Sometimes if im lucky i can pop up and overfly a target, but if I dont kill it its a 100% death sentence.  On the cold war server its not as bad but on the modern servers its borderline impossible to employ anything but at6.  

5 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

The higher the threat, the more ATGM you need. I love rockets the most, but for high threat you need 8x 9M120 Ataka. You have 20% more range the. AT-6 9M114 Shturm.

Use Petro and Ataka to pick off the all the high threats targets and tanks you can’t kill with rockets. When you’ve cleared enough of the dangerous threats, go in an use rockets first since they can be rendered unusable by wing damage. 
 

S-8OFP2 is not accurate with auto CCIP in a traditional attack beyond 1 km depending on conditions. But S-8KOM/S-5KO can be accurate to the 3.5 km limit of the sight. That’s beyond Shilka range.

The farther you are, the larger your rocket salvo will need to be to score a hit. I personally recommend S-5KO as ED applied a 50% explosive damage coefficient to S-8KOM if it hits ground or object, leaving you with barely more damage per rocket then S-5KO, but you can take 60% more S-5 rockets. And they are lighter increasing fuel you can take by either 12% or increasing power margin during damaged engine emergencies. S-5Ko Also has no recoil while all S-8 do, which makes S-5 absurdly more accurate. They can still kill T-55 or damage T-72. 
 

You can read my weapons guide on the main Mi-24 forum if you want to make the most of the sight and avoid all of the things that make it un accurate. 

Utilize your speed, low altitude, 2 G is the tightest you can turn below 1000m and below 11,000 kg. 
 

Be cautious, better to kill a few enemies and be safe then be reckless and not able to make it home. 

Thanks for this!  Interesting about ATAKA, I thought they were HE and not AT missiles?  I have never tried them.  I'll try them on my next sortie!

On the S-5KO, I have tried to mount these but when I do it renders some of the AT6 pylons un useable unless I take one of the stock loadouts, which doesnt IIRC contain 8 x AT-6 and 2 x S-5KO pods.  Cant see your guide, do you have a link?

Im also experiencing motion sickness while playing this module.. very strange

Edited May 4, 2022 by Chad Vader

[AeriaGloria]

1 hour ago, Chad Vader said:

Yea, I agree with all points made here.  THe ground units seem like they are sharpshooters looking straight at you after a pop up.  Sometimes if im lucky i can pop up and overfly a target, but if I dont kill it its a 100% death sentence.  On the cold war server its not as bad but on the modern servers its borderline impossible to employ anything but at6.  

Thanks for this!  Interesting about ATAKA, I thought they were HE and not AT missiles?  I have never tried them.  I'll try them on my next sortie!

On the S-5KO, I have tried to mount these but when I do it renders some of the AT6 pylons un useable unless I take one of the stock loadouts, which doesnt IIRC contain 8 x AT-6 and 2 x S-5KO pods.  Cant see your guide, do you have a link?

Im also experiencing motion sickness while playing this module.. very strange

 

It’s on the same forum secrion as this thread just bottom of the page. Scroll to the bottom for most updated version. I have a vastly more updated version waiting for R-60/Kord update to release. 

All rockets on any pylon positions are compatible with 4-8 ATGM as long as they are all the same rocket. The only thing that would would render some ATGM stations unable to be used is if you mixed rocket types, or took gunpods or KMGU. With gunpods/grenade pods/KMGU, you can only use 4x ATGM. 4x ATGM is compatible with every single loadout. There is no rocket loadout that doesn’t work with 4x-8x ATGM as long as all weapons loaded except for ATGM and gun are the same rocket type. 
 

Ataka has three variants, you can see it in the load out menu. Tandem HEAT, thermobaric HE, and proximity fuse anti air. It’s superior to AT-6 in every way but max speed and the heavier weight of the Ataka. 

Edited May 4, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[Chad Vader]

1 minute ago, AeriaGloria said:

It’s on the same forum secrion as this thread just bottom of the page. Scroll to the bottom for most updated version. I have a vastly more updated version waiting for R-60/Kord update to release. 
 

All S-5 positions are compatible with ATGM. All combinations. The only thing that would would render some ATGM stations unable to be used is if you mixed rocket types, or took gunpods or KMGU. With gunpods/grenade pods/KMGU, you can only use 4x ATGM. 4x ATGM is compatible with every single loadout. There is no rocket loadout that doesn’t work with 4x-8x ATGM as long as all weapons loaded except for ATGM and gun are the same rocket type. 
 

Ataka has three variants, you can see it in the load out menu. Tandem HEAT, thermobaric HE, and proximity fuse anti air. It’s superior to AT-6 in every way but max speed and the heavier weight of the Ataka. 

Thanks again! Ive just tried the S5 rockets and they were indeed decent  Killed me a Shilka and a few AAA trucks with popups strafes.  The Ataka HEAT missiles I take it are the ones I need? I tried them too but its difficult to see the difference.

I just need to get more accurate with them so i dont need to salvo as many.  Speaking of Salvo, where do I see how many rockets I have left?

Thanks for your advice, its been very useful.

[AeriaGloria]

1 minute ago, Chad Vader said:

Thanks again! Ive just tried the S5 rockets and they were indeed decent  Killed me a Shilka and a few AAA trucks with popups strafes.  The Ataka HEAT missiles I take it are the ones I need? I tried them too but its difficult to see the difference.

I just need to get more accurate with them so i dont need to salvo as many.  Speaking of Salvo, where do I see how many rockets I have left?

Thanks for your advice, its been very useful.

You can’t see how many rockets you have left. You have to guess or use external view. It’s not hard if you use full salvos. UB-32 can carry 8 salvos of 4 rockets (lowest setting$, B8V20A can carry 5 salvos of same number rockets. 
 

Ataka has 900mm Penetration compared to 850mm of Shturm. Warhead is much more powerful. It’s the difference between some modern tanks having Enough front armor to completely repel Shturm, or most tanks needing two Shturms, to being able to one shot any tank in DCS with Ataka as long as it hits directly. 

[admiki]

You will only see a difference in range and on modern MBTs. Everything else is killed in one shot by both Shturm and Ataka.

[AeriaGloria]

Yeah, the extra 1 km of range is nothing to sneeze at. Makes the difference in being able to do multiple launches in one pass, or stay out MANPAD/Strela/AAA range 

Technically Shturm will go 6 km also, just Petro won’t tell you as it’s trained to treat it as a 5 km missile 

Edited May 4, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[admiki]

And I can squeeze another half a click or so by firing out of range. Depending on my initial speed and how much attention I pay, I can do 3 shots per run. 2 done easily.

[randomTOTEN]

Hi!

7 hours ago, Chad Vader said:

I just want to say I love this module, I love how it flies

I don't own the Apache. All I can say is that I love the Hind! Responses might be a little 'off the cuff' (how I'm feeling today).

7 hours ago, Chad Vader said:

they use missions that contain mainly AAA and tanks as threats, little infantry.

ahh, the "DCS Meta." Let me guess: all sitting together in a big open field, not moving, not guarding anything strategic. Just sitting there...

Yeah the DCS Meta. Wonderful.

7 hours ago, Chad Vader said:

I once popped up over some trees and expended my entire rocket load to kill a zu23 truck which was fun but then had to RTB obvs.

With DCS damage models, my meta is rockets are for troops, guns are for vehicles and equipment. I would have chosen the gunpods (12.7mm) or the 30mm.

7 hours ago, Chad Vader said:

The gun pods for example, have no penetration and are largely useless.

They work great for trucks and supplies.

7 hours ago, Chad Vader said:

Some of the rockets are ok but the range is not standoff.

Not supposed to be standoff. Let em loose on a squad of enemy troops.

7 hours ago, Chad Vader said:

The forward facing gun is useful but again im usually chewed up as I fly into range.

This gun is amazing, you'll figure it out. Long straight in line up shots are not what you want. Don't give the enemy the opportunity to hit you.

7 hours ago, Chad Vader said:

Any tips on engaging tanks and or AAA using the hind?

ATGM, that's what they're for.

7 hours ago, Chad Vader said:

looking to fit the helicopter into the current meta im in.

Well, if you still just want to live that life, my suggestion is to bring your 8 ATGMs, fire them, then go home. I bet your friends are doing the same thing in their AH-64s. Bet they don't even bring rockets and never fire the gun. Who's fault is that?

Edited May 4, 2022 by randomTOTEN

[Mr_sukebe]

I found that flying it like an even slower A10 seemed to work well, ie pop up from range on a diving attack, shoot an AT6, wait for the strike, then turn away at low level, rinse and repeat.  That kept me away from the super accurate ground fire

[Chad Vader]

21 minutes ago, randomTOTEN said:

Hi!

I don't own the Apache. All I can say is that I love the Hind! Responses might be a little 'off the cuff' (how I'm feeling today).

ahh, the "DCS Meta." Let me guess: all sitting together in a big open field, not moving, not guarding anything strategic. Just sitting there...

Yeah the DCS Meta. Wonderful.

With DCS damage models, my meta is rockets are for troops, guns are for vehicles and equipment. I would have chosen the gunpods for the 30mm.

They work great for trucks and supplies.

Not supposed to be standoff. Let em loose on a squad of enemy troops.

This gun is amazing, you'll figure it out. Long straight in line up shots are not what you want. Don't give the enemy the opportunity to hit you.

ATGM, that's what they're for.

Well, if you still just want to live that life, my suggestion is to bring your 8 ATGMs, fire them, then go home. I bet your friends are doing the same thing in their AH-64s. Bet they don't even bring rockets and never fire the gun. Who's fault is that?

Hi, thanks for the reply.

You are indeed correct on all counts re the meta discussion.  I was relatively new to DCS and have just started to make the transition from learning modules and ooo shiny to seeing the flaws in the design.  The maps my squadron use are what we have, I cant really change that.  There are multiple targets spread out guarding different airfields/FOBS/Cities.  They dont really move as you say, but they sure as hell fire back when engaged.  Troops are there as well but its mainly tanks and AAA.  How would you recommend I proceed?  That was my question?  90% of the targets are AAA and Tanks, which makes for a frustrating helo experience especially if the vehicles are in a town.

Some tanks for example, buried deep in the town of Homs on the Syria map, you have no FLIR or TGP so petro cant see them until you get close or you line up with the road perfectly, its difficult hence why im looking for advice.  Im ok at pop up attacks and strafing attacks in forested areas.  Urban areas give me trouble.

I'd like to design a mission moving forward thats a bit more dynamic, I'm going to learn how to use the editor.

I grew VERY bored of the Apache very quickly, as I found myself lining up, hovering, plink plink plink plink RTB.  Yes very boring.   In the hind I fly her differently, I think she wants to be flown differently, hugging the deck, nap of the earth type flying and popping up to take a shot or to locate a target.

I love flying with my squad, but am on the lookout for more dynamic mission types.  I've been looking at the Enigma server of course, through the inferno and GAW.

On the gun, how do you recommend to line up for a shot.  I usually do exactly what you say, fly straight and level really low, pop up, line up, bang bang, break off.  Im usually engaged on egress if I dont get a kill and that usually results in my demise if its a shilka or ZU23 on a truck for example.

[randomTOTEN]

34 minutes ago, Chad Vader said:

How would you recommend I proceed?  That was my question?

I would fire all my ATGMs first. Considering I knew this was the situation, I would bring 8xATGMs as a starting point. I would look at my weight situation (and the flight distance) and I would decide if I would even consider carrying anything else. Vs more fuel. After all my ATGM's were fired, and if there were still targets, I would assess if it's too dangerous to use the canon or any other stores I had decided to bring. If the targets left were still Tanks and AAA/SAM (or were still heavily defended), then there's really no point getting shot down trying to use anything else, and I would RTB. You can also stay on station and use Petrovich as reconnaissance for your teammates until you all departed, or you reached your fuel limit.

 

41 minutes ago, Chad Vader said:

On the gun, how do you recommend to line up for a shot.

I recommend approaching at an offset angle, then when you are ready to attack turning in, getting a quick line up, shooting, then breaking off.

43 minutes ago, Chad Vader said:

Im usually engaged on egress

I suggest "jinking" (erratic flight path) to spoil their gun solutions. Watch that you don't overdo it and kill your speed. Use terrain/buildings/trees for cover/concealment.

 

44 minutes ago, Chad Vader said:

if its a shilka or ZU23 on a truck for example.

Those are AAA. Use the ATGMs.

[rcjonessnp175]

Use stand-off then close distance and strike fast and strike hard.  Use relative cover and concealment,  concealment being harder as Ai can see and engage through trees and such still….

[AeriaGloria]

The ZU-23/Shilka have a 2.5 km range. If you use S-5KO volleys at max range, anywhere from 25-75% of your rocket pod you can kill it. But that’s a “goddammit this AAA is stopping me from getting close and dirty, might as well use almost everything I have in one shot or two shots to take it down. You can do a similar thing with the gun, only thing limiting it’s accuracy to 3.5 km is the dispersion, which you can make up for with fire rate and the number of rounds you have. ZU-23 emplacements will often blow up with 1 or 2 bullets. 

[Chad Vader]

12 minutes ago, AeriaGloria said:

The ZU-23/Shilka have a 2.5 km range. If you use S-5KO volleys at max range, anywhere from 25-75% of your rocket pod you can kill it. But that’s a “goddammit this AAA is stopping me from getting close and dirty, might as well use almost everything I have in one shot or two shots to take it down. You can do a similar thing with the gun, only thing limiting it’s accuracy to 3.5 km is the dispersion, which you can make up for with fire rate and the number of rounds you have. ZU-23 emplacements will often blow up with 1 or 2 bullets. 

Thanks! On ranging... how can you even tell you are in range as you dont get any ranging queues to let you know?

[AeriaGloria]

7 hours ago, Chad Vader said:

Thanks! On ranging... how can you even tell you are in range as you dont get any ranging queues to let you know?

You totally have ranging cues. That’s what the ASP-17V sight is for. It has ranging errors, but as long as you are over mostly level ground, don’t dive beyond 15 degrees, and don’t use S-8OFP2, it’s pretty accurate. It ranges 0-3.5 km, the auto ranging/CCIP is one of the main features of the Mi-24P ASP-17V sight and it’s ballistic computer VSB-24. You wouldn’t get CCIP if you didnt have range, which is shown by the unwinding scale on the upper right of the floating/CCIP pipper. Even shows you effective max range, and a yellow launch authorization light when within max effective range 

Without knowing this of course you’ve had trouble doing well using unguided munitions, hopefully that will help

Edited May 5, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[admiki]

Also, with some experience you can judge range by yourself(and can get surprisingly good at it) and just use either manual depression or sight marks for correct angles. 

With rockets, best is to fire 1 or 2, observe hit marks and correct (if you are far and rockets hit short, you probably don't have to change anything  since you will travel forward by the time your first rockets hit).

[AeriaGloria]

9 hours ago, admiki said:

Also, with some experience you can judge range by yourself(and can get surprisingly good at it) and just use either manual depression or sight marks for correct angles. 

With rockets, best is to fire 1 or 2, observe hit marks and correct (if you are far and rockets hit short, you probably don't have to change anything  since you will travel forward by the time your first rockets hit).

Surprising is right. When that radio altimeter goes out, as long as you pay attention to how your CCIP is elevated compared to fixed grid vs range, wind direction and strength, and how your flight parameters change the CCIP sight, you can be very surprisingly good 

[Chad Vader]

Hey @AeriaGloria On the subject of the ATAKA x 8 and the S5 Rockets.  I still cannot get Petro to fire on stations 3 and 4 with the ataka similar to the shturm missiles.  He only fires on stations 3 and 4 when i use a stock loadout... not sure how to correct.

[AeriaGloria]

2 hours ago, Chad Vader said:

Hey @AeriaGloria On the subject of the ATAKA x 8 and the S5 Rockets.  I still cannot get Petro to fire on stations 3 and 4 with the ataka similar to the shturm missiles.  He only fires on stations 3 and 4 when i use a stock loadout... not sure how to correct.

Sorry I don’t know. It should work. Maybe post pictures or a track in another thread. Per mission editor, rockets on 3 and 4, Ataka on all else. You can mix and match all ATGM. 
 
You do mean you can’t fire the inboard Atakas right? Not the rockets? It’s a little confusing. It should work fine. 
 

There’s a default loadout with 8x Shturm and 2x s-8KOM pods. Just replace the Shturm with Ataka and the S-8Kom and with S-5 and you should be good to go. 
 

Like if you mean you can’t fire Ataka. Do you get tone when Raduga is locked? Do you have no damage? So many variables like, is weapon Selector in right spot, is locked target with the inner ring of the sight? Does everything look fine and just not fire or is the tone/symbology missing? Did anything happen between firing the 4th and 5th ATGM? Did you check in F2 view if your loadout was right? 
 

Im not necessarily seriously asking all these questions, but saying that Pictures or video could go along way. Even just a picture of the loadout. Post a track in bug and issues forum and someone will probably watch it and find out for you. Becuase if you follow all the procedures, it should work fine 

Edited May 6, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[NeedzWD40]

On 5/4/2022 at 4:39 AM, Chad Vader said:

However, I fly quite regularly with a group and they use missions that contain mainly AAA and tanks as threats, little infantry.

What are the friendly assets available? Fixed wing platforms? Terrain?

8xAT-9 + 40xS-8KOM is my choice for such targets. On flat desert, high speed, low altitude runs with ATGM from max distance, prioritizing missile carriers first. Rough terrain gives a few more options depending on the situation and hover fires from cover might be preferable; you can loft rockets in or peek out from covered positions for ATGM launches.

Much of this can vary depending on the situation, but since you have a group I'd work with them to isolate threats and provide mutual support. It'd really help to know more about the situation(s) though.

[AeriaGloria]

On 5/6/2022 at 4:20 AM, Chad Vader said:

Hey @AeriaGloria On the subject of the ATAKA x 8 and the S5 Rockets.  I still cannot get Petro to fire on stations 3 and 4 with the ataka similar to the shturm missiles.  He only fires on stations 3 and 4 when i use a stock loadout... not sure how to correct.

These are official loadout possibilities. If you follow this format, you will be fine. These are all for carrying 4x ATGM on dedicated ATGM pylons. All ATGM are interchangeable and can be mixed and matched. S-8 and S-5 are interchangeable. All bombs are treated the same. As you can see only KMGU, gun pods, and grenade pods, restrict ATGM and rocket use 

Edited May 10, 2022 by AeriaGloria