S-8D/S-8DM

[AeriaGloria]

  There is no general wishlist thread si I will add it in Mi-24 section. Currently our HE S-8 is OFP2, a 2007 prototype that never entered service. It would appear that it’s integration into Black Shark/FC3 was from a time when ED was less rigorous in their standard of realism and more open to such things. For example, while the S-8OFP2 in DCS does have the warhead size of the OFP2, and the graphics, it’s motor is identical to S-8KOM/OM/Tsm, whereas OFP2 was suppossed to have much more powerful motor to make up for its around 50% increase in weight. The result is the OFP2 we have is not only a weapon that never entered service, it is arguably the only air launched rocket in DCS with incorrect ballistics. These ballistics being so poor is especially noticeable in Mi-24P, where it’s auto ranging CCIO system measures based off where boresight points. With the poor ballistics of OFP2, pipper is so far below boresight the range is overestimated, and your rockets got long at modest to maximum ranges. 
 

  This led me to research, and find that not only there was S-8D/S-8DM, an S-8 with thermobaric warhead Worth 5-6 kg equivalent TNT, and around same weight and ballistics as S-8KOM, but it was used in Afghanistan, even if it appears that KOM was and has been the most common and most widely used S-8 variant. 

 

  Adding it would give Mi-24P, Ka-50, Su-25, Mi-8, MiG-29, Su-27/33/J-11A, and now the HL B8M1 technical an actual accurate HE S-8 rocket that was in service and actually used, as well as it’s large explosive potential making up for the lack of fragmentation modeling that the KOM suffers from (being capable of 400 3 gram fragments). 

   I have a feeling ED is happy with their OFP2, the prototype with incorrect rocket motor that it is. But adding S-8D/DM would go along way to simulating period accurate conflicts and loadouts, and providing fictional scenarios with an actual weapon that was used in service. 
 

  i know that ED also plans to add flechette version of Hydra rocker, the modeling of witch would be a great opportunity to apply to the S-8 flechette variant. 
 

  Thank you for reading, my only hope is to see increase the breadth of our simulation 

 

EDIT: I guess it has been asked before, more broadly wishing for more S-5/8/13 warhead types. However I think adding D/DM would add the most of any new rocket warhead 

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[Avimimus]

7 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

EDIT: I guess it has been asked before, more broadly wishing for more S-5/8/13 warhead types. However I think adding D/DM would add the most of any new rocket warhead 

I'm all for any new rocket option - especially for older platforms that rely on them as a major weapon (the Mi-24/Mi-8/Su-25). So I won't argue too strongly.

I do think that adding a greater variety of S-5 warheads (and even S-5 engines/bodies) would actually add the most - since we only have one option for the S-5 rocket. Of course, the S-8 entered production in 1984 and the Mi-24P in 1981... so the time when it was reliant on the S-5 was relatively short (assuming Mi-24P were prioritised for access to S-8 production).

Honestly, they should do both. It is a relatively easy feature to add... low cost to develop - and it does add something to the sim.

[rcjonessnp175]

100 percent agree,  and learned something new today thanks!

[AeriaGloria]

7 hours ago, Avimimus said:

I'm all for any new rocket option - especially for older platforms that rely on them as a major weapon (the Mi-24/Mi-8/Su-25). So I won't argue too strongly.

I do think that adding a greater variety of S-5 warheads (and even S-5 engines/bodies) would actually add the most - since we only have one option for the S-5 rocket. Of course, the S-8 entered production in 1984 and the Mi-24P in 1981... so the time when it was reliant on the S-5 was relatively short (assuming Mi-24P were prioritised for access to S-8 production).

Honestly, they should do both. It is a relatively easy feature to add... low cost to develop - and it does add something to the sim.

  I actually favor S-5 considering it has no recoil increasing long range accuracy, and the LUA number coefficients do not make the S-8KOM much more powerful then S-5KO except for armor penetration. 
 

What’s interesting to me, is that the list of S-5 variants seems to contain much more multi purpose warheads, and thus it seems USSR/Warsaw Pact seemed to steadily convert from one S-5 to another, rather then having multiple versions available. Or using the most modern version for a type when it entered service and sticking with that version. Obviously aircraft with manual aiming have this easier, you just need new tables. But the Mi-24P, having a ballistic computer that entered service with Mi-24V, which S-5 rockets were used with it that were actually made compatible with the auto CCIP sight? This might be a mute point considering we have S-8OFP2, which was certainly never made compatible. But for that being integrated into the CCIP does have a reason for ED, it’s their only pre existing option for an HE rocket

The different S-5 warheads would be 

The original ARS-57, 1.16 GP warhead 

S-5M and S-5M1, .8 kg HE/FRAG warhead making 75 fragments 

S-5Mo, also .8 kg HE/FRAG warhead, but with seemingly larger steel fragmentation ring then KO resulting in 360 fragments. Or Atleast fragmentation ring divided into smaller sections 

 

S-5K, S-5K1, S-5KO, only difference AFAIK is that S-5KO is upgraded to 1.36 kg warhead versus 1.1 kg, and while all penetrate 130 mm RHA the KO has the fragmentation rings making 220 2 gram fragments

S-5KOB, KP, and KBP, KOB is KO with low smoke motor. KP has larger 1.8 kg warhead with 250mm RHA penetration. KBP is a KP with low smoke motor from KOB. KP and KBP likely have worse ballistics due to .6 kg higher weight 

 

S-5S and S-5SB, flechette warheads, SB using low smoke motor. 
 

S-5P/S-5P1, chaff warheads, we don’t have any rocket warhead that does this in DCS 

S-5O/O1 which are illumination warheads

After that is only newer warheads it seems after production ended in 1990

Perhaps it’s ballistic computer was made to use S-5K, K1, or newer then KO in KOB, KP, and KBP, but not sure if I’ve heard of any references of their use by Mi-24V/P. I have a real life export manual for Mi-24P, and it gives tables for KO and KP. But not sure if that means it’s also integrated into CCIP. 
 

Of these warheads, which would you enjoy having the most over our current KO? 

Edited May 5, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[Northstar98]

+1

[AeriaGloria]

On 5/5/2022 at 7:20 AM, Avimimus said:

I'm all for any new rocket option - especially for older platforms that rely on them as a major weapon (the Mi-24/Mi-8/Su-25). So I won't argue too strongly.

I do think that adding a greater variety of S-5 warheads (and even S-5 engines/bodies) would actually add the most - since we only have one option for the S-5 rocket. Of course, the S-8 entered production in 1984 and the Mi-24P in 1981... so the time when it was reliant on the S-5 was relatively short (assuming Mi-24P were prioritised for access to S-8 production).

Honestly, they should do both. It is a relatively easy feature to add... low cost to develop - and it does add something to the sim.

Reading a Mi-24V manual, goes slightly more in depth in types of rockets allowed. 
 

S-5K1, KO, M1, MO, S

S-8KOM, S, B, KO, and DF. 

So pretty much the main high explosive S-5 variants, flechette rounds of both sizes, concrete penetration and the modernized thermobaric round 

Edited May 16, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[Tarres]

+1

On side note, I think that ED. must control weapons files. We´ve got 2 or 3 types of S-5 but some are only available for the 19P (made by Razbam) and others for example the Durandal are triplicated between ED, Razbam and Aerodev for their respective modules.

[AeriaGloria]

8 hours ago, Tarres said:

+1

On side note, I think that ED. must control weapons files. We´ve got 2 or 3 types of S-5 but some are only available for the 19P (made by Razbam) and others for example the Durandal are triplicated between ED, Razbam and Aerodev for their respective modules.

  Yes, for example we could use S-5M from MiG-19P module in Mi-24P, but who knows if it would be up to ED standard in graphics, accurate motor/drag performance. 
 

There is an S-5M from Magnitude 3 for MiG-21 with .5 kg explosive, with 1.5x warhead multiplier for direct hit and 2x warhead multiplier for ground hit 

M1 and MO by Razbam with .285 kg explosive, and much lower power motor 

Technically, our Mi-24P should be able to use both Razbam variants despite them being worse then our KO in every way. And by the time the P entered service, M1 and MO were old news and not best, but the V was made to use them according to the manual, so it stands to reason the P could also. However my P manual from 2011 only mentions KO. 
 

In addition, Magnitude 3 has there own S-24B with worse graphics, that can do up to 7.5 times more damage then ED S-24B depending what it hits 

Edited May 17, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[Tarres]

The M3 weapons are from LOMAC. There are even FAB/IAB subvariants that no plane can use. Remember that the 21 was a mod for LOMAC and in the beginning was to be a separate program. No files cleanup were made in order to make the module compatible with DCS.

 

[AeriaGloria]

14 hours ago, Tarres said:

The M3 weapons are from LOMAC. There are even FAB/IAB subvariants that no plane can use. Remember that the 21 was a mod for LOMAC and in the beginning was to be a separate program. No files cleanup were made in order to make the module compatible with DCS.

 

That’s why their S-5M looks so bad. But it’s still no excuse that their S-24 can do over 700 kg of damage if it hits the right thing lol. I get fragmentation and the fact that not all weapons are pure TNT has to be made up for, but it’s really overkill. In Mi-24, the S-24 is powerful but has a small blast radius. Really need close to direct hit to make significant damage. 
 

Anyways, it would be fun having more variants of stuff. I think S-5s are way more powerful then S-8KOM in Mi-24 becuase of no recoil throwing off long range aim, and the LUAs don’t make it deal 50% damage like S-8KOM. And with OFP2, it’s ballistics are so bad since it uses same motor as KOM despite 50% more weight; it literally messes up the ballistics computer of the Mi-24 which only measures range from where boresight points. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[Tarres]

+1

I suspect that weapons in general will be "updated " in due time.

[Avimimus]

On 5/17/2022 at 6:51 AM, Tarres said:

+1

I suspect that weapons in general will be "updated " in due time.

I do hope this is the case. They really need to revisit how rocket warheads are modelled at some point - and expand the number of options as soon as the system is upgraded.

I'd definitely pay for an Mi-24P Hind II module with an export variant equipped with UPK gunpods and more rocket warhead options! Maybe AI controlled PKT door gunners as well or the 4xFAB-100 multiple bomb racks used in Afghanistan. There are actually a number of options for expansion (in spite of the surprising diversity already included in this module).

Edited August 12, 2022 by Avimimus