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Mig-21 Asymmetrical bomb drop problem


Gouranga

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As you can see in the video, the Syrians would fly with an asymmetrical loadout of either FAB-100s or FAB-250s for better performance, and to allow them to drop single bombs. As we all know the Mig-21bis circuitry will only allow you to drop bombs in pairs, and having one bomb per "pair" seems like an easy solution, for better fuel efficiency and faster speed (in our case).

I've been wanting this for a very long time, would it be possible to allow us to do this? Either allow us to drop bombs asymmetrically or have a payload to "close the loop" like they might've done IRL, to close the circuit and allow a single bomb to drop.

Thank you.


Edited by Gouranga
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  • Gouranga changed the title to Mig-21 Asymmetrical bomb drop problem

Funnily enough, manual states asymmetrical loadouts are forbidden, no matter what local users 50 years later do, and If you have tried something in the module (you can get asymmetrical loadout easily, just rearm on tarmac and there you go asymmetrical) you already know why it is forbidden, the aircraft flies like $h/# when asymmetrical 🤣.


Edited by Ala13_ManOWar

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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Due to aerodynamic reasons single drop is not recommended, and due weapon system construction single bomb drop is impossible. Pylons have special sensor which enforce simultaneous drop of pair of bombs. In order to save ordnance during normal "peace" service, was developed special simple device which was imitating bomb presence under one of pylons, so bomb from second pylon in pair can be drop in single mode. Device had form of simple metal plate with suspension lugs, bomb drop sensor pusher and side locks which were keeping device in place after bomb locks opening. Usually one pylon had "imitation device", second had light type of training bomb like P-50 or P-75, or light combat bomb like FAB-100, ZAB-100 etc. So wasn't possible hang 4 bombs and drop them with single mode because second pylon in pair was always occupied by "imitation device".

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20 hours ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Funnily enough, manual states asymmetrical loadouts are forbidden, no matter what local users 50 years later do, and If you have tried something in the module (you can get asymmetrical loadout easily, just rearm on tarmac and there you go asymmetrical) you already know why it is forbidden, the aircraft flies like $h/# when asymmetrical 🤣.

 

Come on guys, we've all fired the GROM missile, it's not THAT big a deal, you just gotta roll left for a bit, it's perfectly manageable, try it yourself. You can load the bombs in DCS but CANNOT drop them, that's my point, it won't allow us to drop the bombs, obviously they can do that IRL, if we have to simulate an invisible "imitation device" like foxbat says then so be it.

10 hours ago, foxbat155 said:

So wasn't possible hang 4 bombs and drop them with single mode because second pylon in pair was always occupied by "imitation device".

I know you can't drop 4 bombs, I never said that, I said this

23 hours ago, Gouranga said:

As we all know the Mig-21bis circuitry will only allow you to drop bombs in pairs, and having one bomb per "pair" seems like an easy solution, for better fuel efficiency and faster speed (in our case).

 

All I want is to be able to drop 1 bomb per pair, 2 bombs total, because man, you can barely keep yourself up in the air with 4 FAB-250s, but 2 FAB-250s is easily manageable. I kinda figured there was an "imitation device", and I'm sure it's really easy to add to the game, all we need is a "ghost bomb".
Foxbat hinted at it being used for training, so it's not a "field modification" this came from the factory with the Mig-21bis.


Edited by Gouranga
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5 hours ago, Gouranga said:

Come on guys, we've all fired the GROM missile, it's not THAT big a deal, you just gotta roll left for a bit, it's perfectly manageable, try it yourself. You can load the bombs in DCS but CANNOT drop them, that's my point, it won't allow us to drop the bombs, obviously they can do that IRL, if we have to simulate an invisible "imitation device" like foxbat says then so be it.

Yes, we all have, but once you're airborne it's obnoxious to keep the joystick off centre, but yes doable, right. But taking off, and since you have no aileron trim, it's really nasty as you can't exactly predict how aircraft will behave and prone to accidents. Hence, asymmetrical loadout is forbidden per manual. What can I do about that, go tell Mikoyan and Gurevich mate 😅 .

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/7/2022 at 9:15 AM, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Yes, we all have, but once you're airborne it's obnoxious to keep the joystick off centre, but yes doable, right. But taking off, and since you have no aileron trim, it's really nasty as you can't exactly predict how aircraft will behave and prone to accidents. Hence, asymmetrical loadout is forbidden per manual.

Sorry for the late reply, I've been a little busy..
You should try flying a WWII bird sometime, every change in throttle requires re-trimming, every propeller aircraft IRL is "off-trim" from the Cessna 152 that I learned to fly on to the Yak-52, and dare I say even the Mig-21bis IRL although I've never flown one, it's only natural to assume it would lean from one side or the other.

I rest my case, maybe it's a big deal for flight simmers, but I never had any issues correcting the roll during flight, we need the asymmetrical bombload, real pilots do it IRL, the Mig-21bis is capable of it from the factory with the use of training "imitation devices", implying that soviet pilots did it during training, the Syrians do it during combat because carrying 4 bombs is too much for the little wings, but carrying 2 is enough, and being able to attack twice instead of once is a game changer.

And besides, the question is not whether you like it or not, the question is whether we should have it or not, and I think I'm making a pretty good argument that we should, and I would be very grateful if the devs could implement it, like I said I've wanted this for years, I think it's a must-have feature for the DCS Mig-21bis because it'll significantly improve it's air-to-ground capabilities, and more importantly, it's realistic. It's a capability the real Mig-21bis can do.

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I now realize that I've made this post as a bug report, I hope you'll forgive me for this.. I'm still new to this forum, in fact believe it or not I made this account specifically for that post, however my first attempt was a bit clumsy, and so I deleted it, sat on it for 3 months and now here I am.

I made a mission, please forgive my tongue-in-cheek humor, I had a bit of fun making it. The mission is to prove that you can in fact take-off (and land if needed) with an asymmetrical bombload, however as you'll find there's very little difference between that an a standard 2-bomb loadout.

Screen_220515_133819.jpg

Beautiful day today in Cuba! We gathered quite a crowd today to witness this wonderful event, and as part of the parade we'll now take-off with two bombs, however they're slightly off-center, but that shouldn't be any problem!

I took off, did a few flips, burned fuel until I was light enough to land and then came around

Screen_220515_135048.jpg

1,000 liters of fuel, unfortunately we couldn't drop our bombs so we're a bit overweight, but that shouldn't be a problem, what's important is we're at 10 degrees AOA after all.

Screen_220515_135528.jpg

Landed and turned around for a great family photo! God I love this plane, it really is the AK-47 of the sky, people often downplay it's air-to-air and air-to-ground prowess but under a SAM and GCI umbrella it can defend an airspace and be back in time for dinner. Although it's bombload is limited, in the air-to-ground role a single one of it's bomb can destroy an entire house, and strike terror into it's enemies, a "show of force" if you will, which is arguably more important. a F-16 would never do a low altitude CCIP bomb drop in a hot area simply because it's too expensive, a single shell can destroy many of it's complex systems at once, but a Mig-21 doesn't have this problem, they'll just patch up the holes, check the wiring and it's good to go. What a beautiful aircraft. Have you seen the second video I posted, the guy went inverted right before dropping his bomb, you can't make this up! In any case, there's gotta be documentation about the "imitation device" if it was used for training.

 

And finally, I'd like to thank Magnitude 3 for their hard work and their quick fix of the sound glitch we had recently with one of the updates, it really is a fantastic module.

 

Mig-21 syrian load.miz


Edited by Gouranga
Re-uploaded the mission file, had put a modded S-75 missile by accident
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2 hours ago, Gouranga said:

Sorry for the late reply, I've been a little busy..
You should try flying a WWII bird sometime, every change in throttle requires re-trimming, every propeller aircraft IRL is "off-trim" from the Cessna 152 that I learned to fly on to the Yak-52, and dare I say even the Mig-21bis IRL although I've never flown one, it's only natural to assume it would lean from one side or the other.

I rest my case, maybe it's a big deal for flight simmers, but I never had any issues correcting the roll during flight, we need the asymmetrical bombload, real pilots do it IRL, the Mig-21bis is capable of it from the factory with the use of training "imitation devices", implying that soviet pilots did it during training, the Syrians do it during combat because carrying 4 bombs is too much for the little wings, but carrying 2 is enough, and being able to attack twice instead of once is a game changer.

And besides, the question is not whether you like it or not, the question is whether we should have it or not, and I think I'm making a pretty good argument that we should, and I would be very grateful if the devs could implement it, like I said I've wanted this for years, I think it's a must-have feature for the DCS Mig-21bis because it'll significantly improve it's air-to-ground capabilities, and more importantly, it's realistic. It's a capability the real Mig-21bis can do.

:biggrin: Yeah, I've tried warbirds and it doesn't change my point. I also learnt in a C152 and since she's such a mother one can think every plane out there is like that, but you know they aren't. I also got cleared in a C172RG for advance aircraft (you know, retractable gear, constant speed prop, cowl flaps, and all the fancy stuff) and funnily enough it doesn't feature aileron trim, only nose and rudder. How can I tell you what a nice experience is having a 3 hours cross country while holding the yoke for left aileron. I once put a friend of mine in the back right seat to compensate for it, and it flew quite nicely BTW 🤣🤣 . I guess not "every propeller aircraft flies "off-trim" after all 😉 , and before you tell, no, it couldn't be enhanced by ground crew unless you wanted the opposite nice thing of having to hold the yoke to the right at low speeds and specially while landing which would had clearly been much nicer.

Still, MiG-21 doesn't feature aileron trim and… it just doesn't from factory despite ulterior modifications, what can I do about that? 🤷‍♂️  Remember DCS modules are a "still picture" taken at the date of the info devs could find, and even though aircraft aren't always the same and get modified during it's service life and all, we are stuck in the picture, date, and info found by devs we have. So, 1972 factory fresh MiG-21Bis doesn't feature aileron trim, the manual is clear in forbidding asymmetrical loadouts, and local, later, punctual, whatever mods simply aren't contemplated and I just don't know if we should open that path since everybody ask for their own likes and dislikes in every module so the original base aircraft is a good reference point to prevent getting lost in all the whishlists happening every day in every module. I mean, if ED or any other third party would open that can of worms you could end up having to put the ashtray in the Emil the day we have one just because once Galland did put one on it's mount and wishlists, as the name suggests, are endless so be sure someone will say it's necessary to have the infamous ashtray. Just a silly example, but you get the point.

Anyhow, don't think I say no for the sake of no, like my personal opinion would matter or influence devs in any way 🤣, and if at some point we get the v2.0 of this module, as apparently we would nobody knows when, who knows what new features it could boast, perhaps updating the asymmetrical loadouts could be one of them, but for the moment I believe M3 is quite bogged down with their current WIP modules and I just don't think they even have the time to stop thinking about minor features and goodies like that.

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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16 minutes ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

I also got cleared in a C172RG for advance aircraft (you know, retractable gear, constant speed prop, cowl flaps, and all the fancy stuff) and funnily enough it doesn't feature aileron trim, only nose and rudder. How can I tell you what a nice experience is having a 3 hours cross country while holding the yoke for left aileron. I once put a friend of mine in the back right seat to compensate for it, and it flew quite nicely BTW 🤣🤣 . I guess not "every propeller aircraft flies "off-trim" after all 😉

Are you making fun of me? Later mods? Ashtray? Version 2.0? Goodies?

I'm not asking to model anything, I'm asking to change a few lines of codes at best, or add an "imitation device" if they really feel like it.

On 5/6/2022 at 4:54 PM, foxbat155 said:

Usually one pylon had "imitation device", second had light type of training bomb like P-50 or P-75, or light combat bomb like FAB-100, ZAB-100 etc. So wasn't possible hang 4 bombs and drop them with single mode because second pylon in pair was always occupied by "imitation device".


Edited by Gouranga
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14 minutes ago, Gouranga said:

Are you making fun of me? Later mods? Ashtray? Version 2.0? Goodies?

I'm not asking to model anything, I'm asking to change a few lines of codes at best, or add an "imitation device" if they really feel like it.

 

🤣🤣 No mate, as you would know in short time reading these forums, DCS is never that easy of "changing a line", or "copy-pasting" anything. It's usually quite more complicated than that even when some modders manage to make some minor apparent changes using those tricks, but internally modules are quite more complicated than that and only the line change usually doesn't do the trick for devs or ED.

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

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