Perceived changes in the pitch or yaw controlls

[captain_dalan]

Ahoy there mates, it's been a long time. This is not a bug report, or i would have posted in the bugs section, but rather question on the edge of the envelope scenarios. I've been doing some flight tests for a friend recently, and some of those involved riding the max lift all the way down to stall speeds. Now,  i could be wrong  (it would not be the first time), but if memory serves, with the wings forward to 22 degrees, this meant 30 units of AoA, or 32-33 degrees. As the AoA spiked and airspeed dropped, i started adding appropriate rudder inputs, which bellow 200 knots generally meant (after making sure you are coordinated) full rudder in the direction of bank, in order to prevent the nose from sliding in the opposite direction. This is how i used to do it anyway. To my great surprise, i found that the rudder didn't have enough authority to keep the nose level and straight. Especially bellow 170-160, no matter how hard i stepped on it, my nose kept sliding "up".

It may be my technique that is wrong, however when i checked the tacview file, i noticed something strange. Unfortunately, some weeks ago i deleted all of my old test tracks, in order to save space, so i can't compare the test data side by side. But the new tests, indicate my angle of attack to spike over 34 degrees when i pull the stick full aft. Often going up to 35. This is post stall category unless i'm mistaken. And it's not just transient alpha either. Once pegged it stays there. 

So i started the mission again and this time i pulled gradually. First to 20 units, then 25 units, then 30 units...... and look, i still hade more stick travel unused. And as long as i didn't use that extra travel, the true AoA remained inside 32-33 degrees and my rudder authority was enough to arrest any slipping or sliding tendencies. As soon as i pulled that extra inch or so, my nose went sliding and the rudder could not keep up, even when engaged before the pull.

So, what gives? Were the controls changed somewhere along the way? Is this the intended behavior? Should we actually be able to "oversteer" the plane with full aft stick command? And if so, should the CLmax line follow the 32 or 35 degrees AoA?

Thank you for your time. Tacview files attached bellow! 

Cheers and clear skies

Tacview-20220501-193157-DCS-Sustained turn rate test flight f14B 5000ft 55620lbs.zip.acmi Tacview-20220501-203938-DCS-Sustained turn rate test flight f14A low clean.zip.acmi

[captain_dalan]

So no feedback on this? @IronMike?

[IronMike]

Sorry, missed the thread, bud.

This is a question best for @fat creason to answer, but no we did not change controls recently at all. I can just tell you that Okie told me a story that he danced with his rudders keeping the aircraft level up to AOA 40, which should be possible in DCS, too. It is darn hard, to say the least, but yeah, if memory serves me right you should be able and have been always able to go beyond AOA 30.

[illegal1984]

I was playing with this lately because I got tired of getting swatted by paddling bugs online.

@captain_dalan Are you engaging flaps when under 200 kts or staying street-legal? Do you have any curves or limits on stick and rudder input?

I have curves on my rudder inputs because my petals are garbage and I noticed that I have the same issue with the curves engaged but do not have the issue if I remove the curves (rudder). If you have curves enabled try removing them and if you don't have curves try doing and inverse curve(<- made up term) to see if it is input related.

Stick input wise I have to always do a gradual pull, otherwise I feel my load builds up and I slip away anyway. I have no limits or curves on my stick but I have a the standard gimbal/base that comes with the Thrustmaster. I know that the inputs should be the same numerically, but I think that your individual setup does matter as well in terms of how slowly or nuanced those numbers change. Lastly, if I am below 200 knots I generally break the rules and employ flaps to try to keep my AOA between 25-30 when I feel like getting bored and doing something stupid.

That said, apart from causing problems for myself by adding positive curves to the rudder I have not noticed a difference.

[captain_dalan]

23 hours ago, IronMike said:

Sorry, missed the thread, bud.

This is a question best for @fat creason to answer, but no we did not change controls recently at all. I can just tell you that Okie told me a story that he danced with his rudders keeping the aircraft level up to AOA 40, which should be possible in DCS, too. It is darn hard, to say the least, but yeah, if memory serves me right you should be able and have been always able to go beyond AOA 30.

Ah, good to know that mate. My soul is at rest now!
No worries. I know how hectic can things get around here, especially with all the Phoenix stuff. The finer points of flight characteristics often get buried in all the other posts

[captain_dalan]

6 hours ago, illegal1984 said:

I was playing with this lately because I got tired of getting swatted by paddling bugs online.

@captain_dalan Are you engaging flaps when under 200 kts or staying street-legal? Do you have any curves or limits on stick and rudder input?

I have curves on my rudder inputs because my petals are garbage and I noticed that I have the same issue with the curves engaged but do not have the issue if I remove the curves (rudder). If you have curves enabled try removing them and if you don't have curves try doing and inverse curve(<- made up term) to see if it is input related.

Stick input wise I have to always do a gradual pull, otherwise I feel my load builds up and I slip away anyway. I have no limits or curves on my stick but I have a the standard gimbal/base that comes with the Thrustmaster. I know that the inputs should be the same numerically, but I think that your individual setup does matter as well in terms of how slowly or nuanced those numbers change. Lastly, if I am below 200 knots I generally break the rules and employ flaps to try to keep my AOA between 25-30 when I feel like getting bored and doing something stupid.

That said, apart from causing problems for myself by adding positive curves to the rudder I have not noticed a difference.

No curves on my stick for sure. I've running linear since the very start. And no, i hadn't dropped the flaps. I only do that if i go for a sustained sub 200 knot fight. These were pure max performance turns i ran for a friend of mine. It seems that at very low speeds i have about an inch of stick movement between 32 -33 degrees (true) AoA (max lift) and 35 degrees (true) post stall behavior. 

I can't for the life of me remember if i have any rudder curves, but i will check. Either way, further refinements in stick-rudder inputs on my part are in order. I got smacked in the puss this Saturday my a MiG-29 in a one circle vertical re-merge just because i didn't have the guts to pull more. Yeah it was a very high aspect shot from point blank range (thus well inside the bubble) but we had no rules set aside for no shots at the merge (2 months of hiatus for both of us, so we just wanted to fight), so i let it slide. Anyways, that made me rethink my life so i started practicing max performance turns to a point where i can comfortably hold 32 degrees AoA even though i have aft stick to spare

[Spurts]

So, the issue of going over ~32 AoA is why I go full forward trim before the merge.  I can still pull to, or past, CLmax and it makes it a lot easier to drop the nose if I need to get energy back.