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Will the modernized F-4E have the AIM-120?


S. Low

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10:00 minute mark. 

This is the jet that I want to focus on moreso than any other FW right now and I didn't realize it had been upgraded so much. In this video he mentions it has modern Pulse Doplar radar and has been fitted to use modern Sidewinders, Sparrows and AMRAAMS. I see in the FAQ we're getting a 70s retro F-4E but also a modernized one. So is the modernized one the one with upgraded HUD, radar, weapons, etc? 

Looking forward to seeing F-4s beat 3rd gen F-15s in SATAL and elsewhere 😄 


Edited by S. Low
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The F-4E’s that have AIM-120s are the Hellenic Air Force ones otherwise known as the F-4AUP from the late 90s, which recieved massive upgrades including an APG-65 (F-18A radar), MFDs, new HUD, and many other new updates. There is also the F-4F ICE (German 90s upgrade to their F-4F’s) and the F-4EJ Kai (Japanese upgrade to their F-4EJ’s). While AFAIK HB hasn’t ruled out making later variants that are upgraded. It’s a bit of a stretch to expect their current USAF F-4E post and Pre-DMAS ( which is what they have said) to stretch to include this. In USAF service even with the updates in the late 80s, the F-4E (and G) were never compatible with AMRAAMs. And that seems to be what they are intending to make initially. Maybe much later down the line as an additional variant the HAF F-4AUP’s or Luftwaffe F-4F ICE might show up. But definitely not in the initial or probly even second or third tiers of release seeing as how they have also talked about wanting to do navy phantoms. It would also be contingent on getting ahold of manuals and documentation on any of these upgrades and how they actually work.

 

Making any of these phantoms would essentially be making almost an entirely new jet compared to what Heatblur is currently talking about. So it is highly unlikely they would be a part of the currently announced F-4E module


Edited by KlarSnow
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45 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

The Phantom fights with Sidewinders and Sparrows, what else do you need? . . . . 

. . . . . Two damn fine crew, with utter contempt for ‘newer guys with newer technology’ . . . . . 🥷

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2 hours ago, S. Low said:

10:00 minute mark. 

This is the jet that I want to focus on moreso than any other FW right now and I didn't realize it had been upgraded so much. In this video he mentions it has modern Pulse Doplar radar and has been fitted to use modern Sidewinders, Sparrows and AMRAAMS. I see in the FAQ we're getting a 70s retro F-4E but also a modernized one. So is the modernized one the one with upgraded HUD, radar, weapons, etc? 

Looking forward to seeing F-4s beat 3rd gen F-15s in SATAL and elsewhere 😄 

 

+1 but I wouldn't want them to focus on this before the navy variants I am definently looking forward to it though

Wishlist:f4e,f4j,f4g,f4e aup,f8,f6f,f4u,f15e,ah1g/w,fr fireball,a7d,g91,jaguar,f1,ch53e.

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36 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Indeed. Phantoms phorever! 🙂 

Sing it brother. :thumbup:

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5 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

The Phantom fights with Sidewinders and Sparrows. 🙂 We're getting a Vietnam-era classic Phantom and a Gulf War era updated Phantom, what else do you need? 

Need? It’s not about need. I’m just interested in flying a phantom at different time periods. A modernized phantom would be a really fun opfor jet to fly against the 15s, 16s, 18s etc. I didn’t realize it was so heavily upgraded. That’s awesome and I hope they make the modern variant.

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I hope they don't, at least not any sooner than we got all the variants already "mentioned" (no promises yet), F-4E early and late (here it's settled), possible F-4J/Q/S? for a naval variant (nothing set yet), and I believe we all hope earlier variants also to come, C/D, B/N (even less settled, nothing, all void yet).

Every time people ask for modernised variants (with MiG-21 it's the same) they just didn't stop thinking what that means, an old piece of junk which some countries try to keep updated in order to not expend more money with more modern aircraft they sooner or later would have to buy anyway. But they aren't competitive any more no matter how much you try to update them. You people ask for the updated variants, but you would despise them once tried since you can't compete with any more modern aircraft. Why would devs waste time and effort developing such an obviously inadequate aircraft only a bunch would buy out of a weird nostalgia but only to discover a minute later how crappy those aircraft are compared to modern ones?

Let the classic variants come first and only then, when we have almost all the possible planeset done maybe, and only maybe, modernised variants could be done to fill the small gaps already left. We have now still so much room for original variants we don't have it makes absolutely no sense at all to focus on those modernised ones. Not to mention some of them are still in service and you wouldn't have the info required at all (no F-14D because it's still in service in Iran? anyone remember?).

We all want things, we all talk out loud, we all daydream, but please we can also be a bit, only a bit, objective on what we can and what we cannot get yet mates.


Edited by Ala13_ManOWar
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2 hours ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

I hope they don't, at least not any sooner than we got all the variants already "mentioned" (no promises yet), F-4E early and late (here it's settled), possible F-4J/Q/S? for a naval variant (nothing set yet), and I believe we all hope earlier variants also to come, C/D, B/N (even less settled, nothing, all void yet).

Every time people ask for modernised variants (with MiG-21 it's the same) they just didn't stop thinking what that means, an old piece of junk which some countries try to keep updated in order to not expend more money with more modern aircraft they sooner or later would have to buy anyway. But they aren't competitive any more no matter how much you try to update them. You people ask for the updated variants, but you would despise them once tried since you can't compete with any more modern aircraft. Why would devs waste time and effort developing such an obviously inadequate aircraft only a bunch would buy out of a weird nostalgia but only to discover a minute later how crappy those aircraft are compared to modern ones?

This^

 

 

HB is already going above and beyond by giving us 4 F-4s , all radically different in switchology , performance and employment. As well as focusing on when the Phantom was an actual threat and was king. TLDR, I agree with ManOWar sentiment and believe that making a 2000s phantom is not only making it harder to fit the many scenarios the Echo model could fill , it also is counter intuitive as if you want an AMRAAM carrier the F-16,F-15,and 18.

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I just got called a “you people” because I was interested in something lol. Good grief.

Im not trying to poop on your period accurate parade. I don’t care about the other jets so much, am looking forward to f4, and thought more f4 would be even better than less f4.

Edit: I'll just wrap up - I'm not trying to take away from the historical Vietnam era F4. I'm just excited for the jet and was watching some videos and saw that the modernized variants have significantly improved the jet. I like the idea of being able to focus on ONE jet and learn it for multiple time periods and for bluefor / redfor. Right now the f14 is my go-to if I'm flying FW, but F4 has me super interested. If it's really THAT much extra work outside of the intended plans, then maybe it's a future project and I'd be willing to pay for it. 


Edited by S. Low
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If they make it, I doubt I'll spend a minute in it. I can hardly wait for the E, that's all I'm focused on. Then when we get the Naval variant, that will be a ton of fun as well. Between those 2 I'm good.

If I want to mess with AIM 120's etc then I'll boot up a Viper - no desire for a souped up Phantom...that's actually "less" F-4 rather than "more" F-4 for me. To each his own though. 

9 hours ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

(no F-14D because it's still in service in Iran? anyone remember?).

lol - no.

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Modern combat is about the weapon systems and much less the platform - unless the platform brings stealth into the game. An F-4 with F-18’s radar and AMRAAMs will probably do fine vs. the other modern modules we have. Heck, if you can make a Sopwith  Camel carry pulse doppler radar, AMRAAMS, and link16 it will be get kills on gen-4 fighters.

Having said that, I am usually against the latest and greatest variants that represent obsolete platforms past their prime, kept as 2nd or 3rd rate fighters. Even the F-4G can be considered as such. I much rather have older models that represent the type at its contemporary prime, especially if we have its historical arch-rivals to pair with it. 
 

If after the naval phantoms HB will be scratching their heads and can’t find what to do next, then sure, why not a modernized variant. 

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On 5/8/2022 at 3:25 PM, KlarSnow said:

and the F-4EJ Kai (Japanese upgrade to their F-4EJ’s)

EJ Kais were never upgraded to carry AMRAAM or AAM-4. Just Sparrow, Sidewinder, and the AAM-3, which was most commonly seen equipped during their twilight years.

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1 hour ago, Bozon said:

Modern combat is about the weapon systems and much less the platform - unless the platform brings stealth into the game. An F-4 with F-18’s radar and AMRAAMs will probably do fine vs. the other modern modules we have. Heck, if you can make a Sopwith  Camel carry pulse doppler radar, AMRAAMS, and link16 it will be get kills on gen-4 fighters.

Not true. Speed matters, of which the Phantom admittedly has plenty of. In fact, the only thing 3rd gen fighters have that makes them useful today is their speed. However, the avionics overhaul to bring them up to date is far more significant than going from something like the C model to the E. 

In the end, an updated Phantom would only be good for two things: BVR-only interception and air to ground. Good enough for a nation to keep their old F-4s running, but in DCS, we have more effective platforms for that. I don't think we need a Phantom with Hornet's computers when we have the Hornet.

That said, they'd be cool to have as AI aircraft for use in modern scenarios.


Edited by Dragon1-1
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I think the current lineup is brilliant

For the upcoming F-4E, we have a Vietnam era bird, and an upgraded post-Vietnam bird. This appeals to folks who love the Phantom vs MiG 17, 19, 21 dogfights, and the bomb sled missions that we have all read about, and it also appeals to a slightly later period in the cold war when guided bombs and pods started to explode onto the scene. So if you're a hardcore 3rd gen dogfight fan, you can do that, and if you're a LGB + pod fan from the hornet, viper, or tomcat, you would love the later variant. 

As for the naval variants, the J+S combo appeals in the same way. You have the Vietnam era bird, then the upgraded navy bird from later. 

It is so much easier to mimic an early Phantom mission with a restricted loadout and a good skin, than it is to try and do later missions with aircraft that can't mimic the capability. 

As for the super upgraded amraam Phantoms, unlike the previous mentioned birds, those could very easily and happily be mimicked using mods - just look at what the IAF mods team did with that two seater F-16 and custom weapons. The EJ Kai, the Hellenic and Turkish Phantoms, those are very niche, like the super upgraded F-5's in Brazil or the upgraded MiG 21's. Yes there are a bunch of those floating around now, but they do not represent the most famous, most used, or most "classic" variants. 

Plus, the Phantom is a Sparrow and Sidewinder bird, most of the historical tactics, the tactical egg, all those are soaked in nostalgia, and as we all know from the F-14, nostalgia sells! 

Happy to buy whatever Phantom variant gets made - but I think the current breakdown makes the most sense, E, DMAS E, J, S, best of all worlds


Edited by _BringTheReign_
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As a huge Phantom lover, I'm actually against the more modern versions, as they don't really represent the Phantom. Sure, having a Hornet radar with AMRAAM's and fancy screens sound nice, but as someone already stated, we have an F/A-18 to do Hornet things.

Again, stealing a line from someone else, the serious upgrades to the F-4 and MiG-21's were done to help countries that really can't afford to just outright replace said airframe. The upgraded Phantom's aren't frontline fighters either, but more like a poor man's F-15E Strike Eagle.

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13 minutes ago, KPenn5 said:

As a huge Phantom lover, I'm actually against the more modern versions, as they don't really represent the Phantom. Sure, having a Hornet radar with AMRAAM's and fancy screens sound nice, but as someone already stated, we have an F/A-18 to do Hornet things.

I think that misses the point. You don't want an AMRAAM armed Phantom to do Hornet things. You want an AMRAAM armed Phantom to do Phantom things. Just because a plane carries AMRAAM doesn't make it equivalent to all other AMRAAM carriers.

13 minutes ago, KPenn5 said:

Again, stealing a line from someone else, the serious upgrades to the F-4 and MiG-21's were done to help countries that really can't afford to just outright replace said airframe. The upgraded Phantom's aren't frontline fighters either, but more like a poor man's F-15E Strike Eagle.

That's part of the appeal. They're worse than 4th gen aircraft. We have plenty of room for advanced 3rd gen fighters. They are their own unique class that is distinct from 70's 3rd gen fighters and current 4th gen fighters. I don't see why anyone wouldn't want them given that. It's not like they would keep us from getting other planes.

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On 5/10/2022 at 3:51 AM, Exorcet said:

It's not like they would keep us from getting other planes.

Here's where you're wrong. Time spent by the devs on modeling a whole other aircraft like a modernized F-4, could be spent making, say, an A-6 Intruder, which most of us care more for.  Particularly since modern avionics are much more complex than those of the old Phantoms and the Intruder, so they'd take even longer to code. Modern Phantom variants would not be competitive in PvP and would get creamed on modern servers designed to challenge Vipers and Hornets, while being too modern for the date-restricted ones. I suppose one could make a campaign for the Turkish variant, which could be fun in SP, but campaign creators also have many more iconic aircraft to work with. Further complicating it is that the non-US nations aren't always forthcoming with necessary information on their upgrades, and the fact that whatever docs you can get might be in the native language of the country in question (although HAF manuals are English, at least). It's just not worth the developer time to make what would essentially be a gimmick module.

Any "gen 3+" fighters should be made for AI only, if at all. The Turkish variant would have a good rationale to implement as AI, since we have a good chunk of Turkey in the Syria map, and a small one (albeit without anywhere to land) in Caucasus.

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10 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Here's where you're wrong. Time spent by the devs on modeling a whole other aircraft like a modernized F-4, could be spent making, say, an A-6 Intruder, which most of us care more for.

There are a whole lot of factors here, like how much data they have on each plane and how big the team is, and what parts of each module need to be worked on. In anycase offering an advanced F-4 doesn't mean it has to be done before the A-6, not to mention we have multiple module developers within DCS.

10 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

 

 Modern Phantom variants would not be competitive in PvP and would get creamed on modern servers designed to challenge Vipers and Hornets, while being too modern for the date-restricted ones.

It's a non issue. DCS isn't a competitive game. Where ever the F-4 falls doesn't matter. Additionally, it's more than the airframe that matters here. The situation does as well.

10 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Any "gen 3+" fighters should be made for AI only, if at all. The Turkish variant would have a good rationale to implement as AI, since we have a good chunk of Turkey in the Syria map, and a small one (albeit without anywhere to land) in Caucasus.

I'd say that's a completely arbitrary limitation of the game and I'd disagree heavily. 3+ belong in DCS just as much as any other category. It's not an esports title, and even if it was you could still work these planes into it.

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14 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

There are a whole lot of factors here, like how much data they have on each plane and how big the team is, and what parts of each module need to be worked on. In anycase offering an advanced F-4 doesn't mean it has to be done before the A-6, not to mention we have multiple module developers within DCS.

None of this changes a thing. The point is, there's still a lot of planes that should take priority before a dolled-up F-4. Tornado, F-104, the Thud, F-15C, the Superbug, SEPECAT Jaguar, the Super Sabre... the list goes on. Most people (including most devs) would, if given the choice between a Turkish F-4 and any of the aforementioned, would not pick the Turkish F-4. The 3+ generation aircraft are of limited utility and would likely not make a whole lot of money, because of that and aforementioned lack of competitiveness. 

You can dream that someone will get to it by 2030, but I prefer to focus on the foreseeable future. I would not recommend anyone to bother with the 3+ gen fighters in the foreseeable future. If you really have to have it, you can make a mod, MB-339 started out that way.

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1 minute ago, Dragon1-1 said:

None of this changes a thing. The point is, there's still a lot of planes that should take priority before a dolled-up F-4.

That's subjective. I certainly have my list of priorities, but if a dev wanted to focus on an AMRAAM armed F-4, that's totally up to them.

1 minute ago, Dragon1-1 said:

 

Tornado, F-104, the Thud, F-15C, the Superbug, SEPECAT Jaguar, the Super Sabre... the list goes on. Most people (including most devs) would, if given the choice between a Turkish F-4 and any of the aforementioned, would not pick the Turkish F-4. The 3+ generation aircraft are of limited utility and would likely not make a whole lot of money, because of that and aforementioned lack of competitiveness. 

I feel like you're underestimating their popularity. I've seen them requested multiple times, but either way an advanced F-4 does not lock a developer out from doing other modules as well.

Something that many in the community would like to see are more coherent groups of aircraft that belong to the same era. A developer that wanted to pursue such a thing would have incentive to develop modernized older airframes along with more advanced ones in situations where it made sense (ie Japan, West Germany, China, etc). It does seem like 4th gen might be the most popular, but they are far from the only ones worth developing. And again competitiveness only counts for so much Even in the MP community, players will take it upon themselves to create a desired level of balance. Banning AMRAAM online has been a thing since before DCS was DCS (LOMAC).

1 minute ago, Dragon1-1 said:

You can dream that someone will get to it by 2030, but I prefer to focus on the foreseeable future. I would not recommend anyone to bother with the 3+ gen fighters in the foreseeable future. If you really have to have it, you can make a mod, MB-339 started out that way.

It's up to the devs and the demand from the players. Whether that means we'll see one in 2030 or in 2024, no one can really say.

Awaiting: DCS F-15C

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2 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

I feel like you're underestimating their popularity. I've seen them requested multiple times, but either way an advanced F-4 does not lock a developer out from doing other modules as well.

How many times you saw an advanced F-4 requested (and no, multiple posts from you don't count)? You're not seriously trying to tell me it's more popular than Tornado, Superbug and F-15C, right? Hint: some aircraft had simulators made in DOS era. Look those up and calibrate your expectations. FYI, most people specify F-4E or F-4S (with a small group wanting a British Phantom). 

And yes, it does lock out a developer from doing other stuff, at least until the end of the dev cycle. You can try doing what RAZBAM did and you'll end up like RAZBAM, with a pile of unfinished, poorly supported modules that never go out of EA. I'd gladly delay the Strike Eagle and MiG-23 just so that they can get the Harrier and MiG-19 in order. No, if you want things done right, you need to spend time on them, and that means not spending time on some other, more interesting aircraft. If it's got MFDs, you need to spend a lot of time.

6 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

It's up to the devs and the demand from the players. Whether that means we'll see one in 2030 or in 2024, no one can really say.

Seeing as both appear to be approximately zero, give or take one or two for the latter, 2030 is very optimistic. There's probably some sort of market from flight sims in Turkey, but most of the players are in the US, and will have no idea that such aircraft even exists. Quite frankly, you'd probably have more luck lobbying with Turkish government to pay a DCS dev to make a module to train their AF than to suggest it to the devs to make on its own merit. That's about the only way I see for them to recoup the development cost and get the necessary documents (since the Turks don't make them public as readily as the US does). In short, don't get your hopes up.

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13 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

How many times you saw an advanced F-4 requested?

Not just the Phantom, the MiG-21 and F-5 have similar requests. We even have requests the other way, for simplied F-18's and F-16's that wouldn't be competitive with the current modules. I don't keep track of every post I've seen over the years, but if you want a tally you can search through the wishlist.

13 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

 

You're not seriously trying to tell me it's more popular than Tornado, Superbug and F-15C, right? Hint: some aircraft had simulators made in DOS era. Look those up and calibrate your expectations. FYI, most people specify F-4E or F-4S (with a small group wanting a British Phantom). 

I don't think it matters. They're popular enough to have some demand, and popularity alone doesn't mean a module will be made. I certainly would love to see modernized classic fighters in DCS. If it flies it has a place here. I'm not arguing that we need them tomorrow, that's not up to me.

13 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

And yes, it does lock out a developer from doing other stuff,

Which is fine, we have other developers. Although again deciding to do X doesn't lock you out from Y. And it's not just RAZBAM that's an example. There is Heatblur itself along with ED. They all have multiple projects that they plan to deliver.

13 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

No, if you want things done right, you need to spend time on them, and that means not spending time on some other, more interesting aircraft. If it's got MFDs, you need to spend a lot of time.

OK, then do it right and spend the time. That time can be spent today, tomorrow, or whenever.

13 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Seeing as both appear to be approximately zero, give or take one or two for the latter, 2030 is very optimistic.

Well, you're free to hold your opinion. I guess we just wait and see.

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Well, don't hold your breath, you won't "see" anything no matter how long you wait. You seem to have no idea about sheer complexity of developing a modern module, and just how difficult it is to hit breakeven in a niche market like DCS. Time=money, because devs need to be paid for their work. So, the longer it takes to develop a module, the more people need to buy it. Niche trainer/oldschool module? Fine, systems are simpler, development takes less time, one might be tempted to take that gamble if they think there's enough of a market. Niche module with a modern glass cockpit? Forget it, you'll surely lose money, you can't pay the devs and you go bust. So yeah, popularity kind of does matter.

Old variants of modern jets are another matter, because DCS has a nice 80s-90s ecosystem going, and as I said, oldies take less dev time. Also notice they're not being made, likely because ED has to stick to really big earners in order to support core development, and other devs have better things to do.

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