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Will the modernized F-4E have the AIM-120?


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On 5/8/2022 at 6:04 PM, Ala13_ManOWar said:

You people ask for the updated variants, but you would despise them once tried since you can't compete with any more modern aircraft. Why would devs waste time and effort developing such an obviously inadequate aircraft only a bunch would buy out of a weird nostalgia but only to discover a minute later how crappy those aircraft are compared to modern ones?

 

There are some solid reasons from a development perspective why we might not see such a variant fitting into plans but IMHO this isn't one of them.

"You people" whoever they may be can do whatever they want with DCS and pitch their favourite aircraft against whatever is competitive or simply just fun for them. Load up whatever aircraft and weapons they want the AI to have, pick scenarios that suit be they historic or fiction, make the enemy easy or hard etc.

Although PVP may seem the holy grail for combat sim fighter pilots the reality is that it is a very small subset of players. What the vast majority of people do with DCS compared with what we see with online server activity can be (and most probably are) quite different.

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I am from Turkey and ı am F4 fan. I love old F-4E and our  upgraded Terminators. I want to see both of them in the game. I think someone was working on Hellenic F4E AUP model. I saw some development vıdeos on youtube and ı think his nick was T-Pap.

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On 5/8/2022 at 12:04 PM, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Let the classic variants come first and only then, when we have almost all the possible planeset done maybe, and only maybe, modernised variants could be done to fill the small gaps already left. We have now still so much room for original variants we don't have it makes absolutely no sense at all to focus on those modernised ones. Not to mention some of them are still in service and you wouldn't have the info required at all (no F-14D because it's still in service in Iran? anyone remember?).

This is my attitude about the Phantom and MiG-21. I want the classic Vietnam and later cold war variants. Then later get the Super Phantom 2ks. 

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If its popular enough and it will sell. The Mid-late cold war phantoms will most likely sell like hotcakes. The post 2000s may be a different story. Although if it is represented by our phantom module, I would place money on either Terminator ( Turkish Modern Phantom) , Greek F-4E AUP , or the Japanese ( and the most interesting one) F-4EJ Kai. The latter is more interesting as it could use Anti-shipping weapons and was only retired 2 years ago

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Japanese are very much not forthcoming with any data on post-WWII military aircraft, so anything Japanese is probably off the table. Greeks might be somewhat more so (or at least they suck at preventing their manuals from leaking onto the internet 🙂 ).

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On 5/11/2022 at 3:30 PM, Exorcet said:

Not just the Phantom, the MiG-21 and F-5 have similar requests. We even have requests the other way, for simplied F-18's and F-16's that wouldn't be competitive with the current modules. I don't keep track of every post I've seen over the years, but if you want a tally you can search through the wishlist.

I don't think it matters. They're popular enough to have some demand, and popularity alone doesn't mean a module will be made. I certainly would love to see modernized classic fighters in DCS. If it flies it has a place here. I'm not arguing that we need them tomorrow, that's not up to me.

Which is fine, we have other developers. Although again deciding to do X doesn't lock you out from Y. And it's not just RAZBAM that's an example. There is Heatblur itself along with ED. They all have multiple projects that they plan to deliver.

OK, then do it right and spend the time. That time can be spent today, tomorrow, or whenever.

Well, you're free to hold your opinion. I guess we just wait and see.

Stopped by looking for updates and saw my thread was still going. I agree with Exocet here. He makes reasonable points. 
 

Yea, Devs have limited time to make modules so they need to focus on some. But heatblur isn’t making everything. Between creation and ongoing support for f14, f4, euro fighter, and viggen I think they’ll have their hands full personally. So perhaps they add on an A6 in a few years? Well at that point unless they’re growing substantially I’d get the impression they’d be better off selling an amraam capable f4 rather than trying yet another extremely complicated jet like a tornado or whatever.

And I think I made my primary point on this earlier in the thread: I find focusing on one jet for several time periods very appealing. I mostly fly helos. I’d like to just have one go-to jet for Vietnam, cold war, and modern. The amraam f4 would absolutely be competitive in bvr against the modern dcs jets becsuse dcs bvr isn’t very accurate anyways from what I gather from fighter pilots. Though even if it wasn’t competitive I’d still prefer it because of my other reasons.

i like the f4 and would like more f4 options that’s all. I’d like a f14d too if that were ever possible. Not becsuse I want the “A” lessened, just because it’s more f14 😆

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BVR is getting better fast. The F-4 would not be competitive once jamming and radar mechanics are refined, even with upgrades. Also, most of those upgraded F-4s include MFDs, so it's practically the same kind of workload as, say, a Tornado would be. Workload that could be used to make, say, the actual Tornado, or other interesting aircraft.

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"BVR is getting better fast."  If I respond to this we'll end up going down a deep tangent and outside the scope of my original question I think. Nobody in Heatblur has commented here so I think my original question is defacto answered, no amraam F4 planned (yet). I'm still excited for the F4E. If they happen to make a modern variant later on in a couple years, I'd buy it. Cheers, fellas. I'm hyped, hope it releases soonTM!

 

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I would love too. there is nothing wrong with more variant, even the G. heck, even if we got the RF-4E I would be happy for servers like blueflag and Enigma that incorporates recon mechanic and other bunch of scenario.

 

but with that being said though, I find it highly unlikely seeing that we haven't got the 2 remaining Tomcat variants

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Making this frankenstein modern Phantom with totally different avionics, radar, weapons, systems etc. would require absolutely huge amount of work, it would be practically completely different aircraft worth many years of research and coding. And it is classified so it would be totally unrealistic even after all this additional years of coding.

Making F-14A GR-95 is taking years of coding and research even though there are only a few differences.

Soon: "give P-51 Exterminator Predator Terminator with JHMCS, Link16 and AMRAAM"

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12 minutes ago, bies said:

Soon: "give P-51 Exterminator Predator Terminator with JHMCS, Link16 and AMRAAM"

Whatever we envision when we think of a F-4 Phantom, I believe the OP has a valid point that the aircraft exists and isn't some made up idea as you seem to suggest.

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1 hour ago, Baldrick33 said:

Whatever we envision when we think of a F-4 Phantom, I believe the OP has a valid point that the aircraft exists and isn't some made up idea as you seem to suggest.

Agreed, Lets leave it at that. While a Modern Phantom would be cool, I'd like to keep my expectations to a 70s and 80s phantom.

Tho, a JDAM, AMRAAM and modernized phantom would be cool as an OPFOR aircraft, imagine a potential for a 2000s phantom vs a VIper, eagle or Hornet, and in the Future, a Typhoon .

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26 minutes ago, Fangs Out said:

imagine a potential for a 2000s phantom vs a VIper, eagle or Hornet, and in the Future, a Typhoon .

It'd get its ass kicked all the way into the next decade. A modern Phantom could possibly sling AMRAAMs at slower 4th gens from a slightly longer range, but that's all. Their main use in modern days is as bombers, since for moving mud you don't need heaps performance (just ask the A-10), but you do need a lot of hardpoints and decent avionics.

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2 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It'd get its ass kicked all the way into the next decade. A modern Phantom could possibly sling AMRAAMs at slower 4th gens from a slightly longer range, but that's all. Their main use in modern days is as bombers, since for moving mud you don't need heaps performance (just ask the A-10), but you do need a lot of hardpoints and decent avionics.

Yea, But it can make for some good campaigns, think like the Museum Relic campaign or underdog stories. 

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2 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It'd get its ass kicked all the way into the next decade. A modern Phantom could possibly sling AMRAAMs at slower 4th gens from a slightly longer range, but that's all. Their main use in modern days is as bombers, since for moving mud you don't need heaps performance (just ask the A-10), but you do need a lot of hardpoints and decent avionics.

A friend of mine was a RIO in a german F4 and he told me, that during redflag they would send the german F4s forward to get the first kills due to their radar, of course not much of a chance up close but dont underestimate the old lady

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12 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It'd get its ass kicked all the way into the next decade. A modern Phantom could possibly sling AMRAAMs at slower 4th gens from a slightly longer range, but that's all. Their main use in modern days is as bombers, since for moving mud you don't need heaps performance (just ask the A-10), but you do need a lot of hardpoints and decent avionics.

Given that F-16 radar is not so great in both DCS and IRL I would say that the range difference could be more than just "slight".

At first it seemed like a weird idea to have modern Phantoms, but why the hell not? Especially considering HBs new cooperation with TrueGrit which probably has plenty of sources in German F4 community.

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1 hour ago, sparrow88 said:

Given that F-16 radar is not so great in both DCS and IRL I would say that the range difference could be more than just "slight".

The Phantom's radar would not be much better, though, even after modernization. I was referring to the kinematic advantage that Phatom's Mach 2+ speed can give (assuming they're permitted to go that fast these days).

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Which is in the same ballpark (a little better, maybe) as early Vipers. Anecdote, but I heard from an AWACS guy that while F-15s would call "Jody", the Vipers (A model or early C back then, IIRC) would call "Tally" during intercepts, because they wouldn't get reliable lock before they got into WVR. Not sure what the APG-65 specifically was like, but it's unlikely they'd get a lock at much longer range.

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If we're talking capability, let's not forget that Boeing cancelled its own modernized F-4 program because that plane would be competitive with, or superior to, the F-18 and hurt sales. The F-4 is not a terrible airframe and one of the benefits of being a large fighter is that it's easier to adopt newer technology down the line. Even if modernized 3rd gen fighters aren't completely as good as 4th gen, they're still something to be taken seriously. It's also good to have a spectrum of capability in mission design to set and tweak mission difficulty. Are JF-17's too difficult an opponent for a given mission but F-4's armed with sparrows too easy? Go the middle ground with an advanced F-4 for instance.

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Awaiting: DCS F-15C

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On 6/12/2022 at 9:05 AM, sparrow88 said:

At first it seemed like a weird idea to have modern Phantoms, but why the hell not? Especially considering HBs new cooperation with TrueGrit which probably has plenty of sources in German F4 community.

Because the F-15E can do the same missions, just better.

Don't waste any money on developing those "been there, done that" modernized airframes. If HB had unlimited resources - fine. But I'd rather have them develop the Navy birds instead of sticking TV-screens into the E.

9 hours ago, Exorcet said:

If we're talking capability, let's not forget that Boeing cancelled its own modernized F-4 program because that plane would be competitive with, or superior to, the F-18 and hurt sales

Boeing didn't really do John Poo. McDonnell Douglas was in charge back in the day and the narative of the Phantom getting "too good" is most probably a fairy tale made up by the old folks for the old folks.

MDD was cutting cost and kicking an old program out of the factory to ramp up current poduction-capability (Eagles and Hornets) is just the right move to do, instead of hoping someone is gonna buy a 30 year old airframe with some lip-gloss on it and no growth-potential left.

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So ein Feuerball, JUNGE!

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3 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

MDD was cutting cost and kicking an old program out of the factory to ramp up current poduction-capability (Eagles and Hornets) is just the right move to do, instead of hoping someone is gonna buy a 30 year old airframe with some lip-gloss on it and no growth-potential left.

I don't necessarily disagree with culling older models for new, but let's not discount the Phantom. It's faster than a Hornet, any Hornet. It has more payload capacity than the Hornet. I'm not sure which comes out on top with number of stores carried but the F-4 can be a real bomb truck. The upgraded F-4 also would have had the Hornet's avionics as a baseline. The Phantom had some advantages.

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Awaiting: DCS F-15C

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