Jump to content

Engine breaking after 30 seconds max power.


Gunfreak

Recommended Posts

Did a mission,  air start. Flew some 20 minutes never taking the power out of the green.

I then put max power for 10 seconds to try and catch up with an enemy. But throttled down. I then merged with another Fw190, after 4 minutes of dogfighting in the green I put max power on for 20 seconds to get a bit more speed. And the engine broke. Started that rumbling.  It still worked for about 5 more minutes for me to put it down, but engine temp was locked at max, and didn't go down.

i7 13700k @5.2ghz, GTX 3090, 64Gig ram 4800mhz DDR5, M2 drive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi.

Open the radiators (left hand panel, two switches witha a cover) to the max manual position and keep them there all the time the fight is on. I thinks there is some problem with the cooling, but don't take my word.

Saludos.

Saca111

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When flying at max power make sure you always have sufficient airflow through the radiators (regardless of their position) and that you constantly check your temps. Avoid low speeds with max power and also take the ambient temperature into consideration when you are flying.

 

And remember: For such issues it's always a good idea to post a short video and/or track so we can help you even more.


Edited by razo+r
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

For military power climb you will need at least 200mph IAS, anything below will cook your engine.

System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Like razo said. Watch your temps. It doesn't matter if you keep things within the green. What does matter is how you are flying. If what you're doing is causing the engine to heat up, keeping thing in the green matters not. Keep an eye on your engine and coolant temps. If they're getting high, open up the radiators.

AMD Ryzen 9 5900 - AMD Radeon RX 6800 XT - 64GB 3200 - Win 11 - 2 TB SSD (game drive) - Quest 3.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If p-51's temps are near red lines auto mode will have radiators wide open, so in that situation manually opening them won't change a thing, only what you can do is increase speed or reduce power. You can open radiators if you are about to increase power or enter climb, after situation settle you can switch back to auto.


Edited by grafspee
  • Like 1

System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That seems extremely counter intuitive. 

I don't need WEP when in diving at 350-500 mph. I need it in the vertical to get those extra meters,  but in the vertical you go from 400 to 130mhp in seconds. I need when I get slow in a turn. 

i7 13700k @5.2ghz, GTX 3090, 64Gig ram 4800mhz DDR5, M2 drive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

That seems extremely counter intuitive. 

I don't need WEP when in diving at 350-500 mph. I need it in the vertical to get those extra meters,  but in the vertical you go from 400 to 130mhp in seconds. I need when I get slow in a turn. 

It's not counter intuitive, it makes absolute sense. High running engine means heat and you need airflow to dissipate it. No airflow -> broken engine. That's all

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Gunfreak It is not about what you need or not, it is about how things works in DCS, you can use WEP in vertical climbs but when speed drops you need to level out or cut throttle.

This is how it is in current DCS version, new cooling system model was announced some time ago, so maybe things, when it get released, change.


Edited by grafspee

System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

It's not counter intuitive, it makes absolute sense. High running engine means heat and you need airflow to dissipate it. No airflow -> broken engine. That's all

It is counter intuitive to make a system that doesn't work when you need it the most. And will break an engine in 20 seconds if you are slightly to slow.

i7 13700k @5.2ghz, GTX 3090, 64Gig ram 4800mhz DDR5, M2 drive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Gunfreak said:

It is counter intuitive to make a system that doesn't work when you need it the most. And will break an engine in 20 seconds if you are slightly to slow.

Some P-51's manuals claims that P-51 can go military power on the ground as part "before take off" procedures, so this cooling problems in P-51 has very long history on this forum.

But things are as follows , for WEP or military power anything below 200 mph will make your coolant temp hit redline.


Edited by grafspee
  • Like 1

System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, grafspee said:

Some P-51's manuals claims that P-51 can go military power on the ground as part "before take off" procedures, so this cooling problems in P-51 has very long history on this forum.

But things are as follows , for WEP or military power anything below 200 mph will make your coolant temp hit redline.

 

I knew there was a cooling problem/bug. I was just surprised literally 20 seconds couls kill it. I was in a turn at about 160-170mph and went WEP just to be to complete the turn without losing  more speed. And that was it.

If the engine really was that delicate in real life, I doubt any pilot would come home from a dogfight. Pilots mistreat their planes much more then we can do in this game.(same goes for WW1 in certain other sims) Pilots describe doing stuff that would rip wings off or break the engine in a second in any of these simulators.

i7 13700k @5.2ghz, GTX 3090, 64Gig ram 4800mhz DDR5, M2 drive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Gunfreak DCS is the best thing on the market right now, maybe we could find some sim which do this better but their focus is only flying no combat, other combat sims relay simply on timers not really simulating engine at all. Lets hope that new cooling model will fix those problems.


Edited by grafspee

System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

I was in a turn at about 160-170mph and went WEP just to be to complete the turn without losing  more speed.

There's the issue.

There's no getting around the physics. If your temps were in the green until this moment it is likely that the sudden application of max. power at that low an airspeed spiked the temps before the cooling system could react.

The rad doors on the Pony do NOT open/close progressively with temperature increase/decrease. The technology to do this simply was not available back then. 

What you have instead are two thresholds; a high and a low. When engine temps hit the high threshold the doors start to open and continue to open until they are full open or until the temperature drops to or below that high threshold and which point they cease to open any further.

The low threshold works identically in reverse; when engine temps hit the low threshold the doors start to close and continue to close until they are fully shut or until the temperature climbs to or above that low threshold and which point they cease to close any further.

The process takes time to open and close the doors and for the resulting cooling or heating effect to work it's way around the system. It is not instantaneous. If you demand too much too soon it is possible to heat spike the system because the coolant system cannot keep up with the increased thermal load that your power application demands.

The low speed regime simply exacerbates the problem. 

1. Where possible keep IAS over 200mph.

2. Avoid sustained vertical manoeuvres and if the speed drops below 160 with your nose high, cut power and pick up airspeed to get better than 200 before re-application.

3. Clue is in the name: War Emergency Power. Use it to run away cos you're out of ammo or ideas and make sure you have some smash on before hitting that button. It is not a "toggle to win" button in the midst of a dogfight.

 

2 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

If the engine really was that delicate in real life, I doubt any pilot would come home from a dogfight. Pilots mistreat their planes much more then we can do in this game.(same goes for WW1 in certain other sims) Pilots describe doing stuff that would rip wings off or break the engine in a second in any of these simulators.

 

There is a kernel of truth it what you say; I personally (and I suspect many others here) think EDs interpretation of the engine thermal limits are a little too strict. There are indeed reports out there of pilots giving their Merlin's quite a flogging and it being a seemingly robust powerplant. However...

There is such a thing as survivor bias; what about all those reports that couldn't be filed because the unfortunate pilot was KiA or a PoW because he overworked his engine too long or too hard?

No powerplant is indestructible and there are a host of factors that define how long an engine can last under duress.

Most of us are eager to see the implementation of EDs revised cooling model, as it has been teased for some 3-4 years now but the Pony & Spitfire are eminently flyable and fightable in DCS - if you are mindful of your speed and power settings and fly accordingly.


Edited by DD_Fenrir
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, DD_Fenrir said:

There's the issue.

There's no getting around the physics. If your temps were in the green until this moment it is likely that the sudden application of max. power at that low an airspeed spiked the temps before the cooling system could react.

The rad doors on the Pony do NOT open/close progressively with temperature increase/decrease. The technology to do this simply was not available back then. 

What you have instead are two thresholds; a high and a low. When engine temps hit the high threshold the doors start to open and continue to open until they are full open or until the temperature drops to or below that high threshold and which point they cease to open any further.

The low threshold works identically in reverse; when engine temps hit the low threshold the doors start to close and continue to close until they are fully shut or until the temperature climbs to or above that low threshold and which point they cease to close any further.

The process takes time to open and close the doors and for the resulting cooling or heating effect to work it's way around the system. It is not instantaneous. If you demand too much too soon it is possible to heat spike the system because the coolant system cannot keep up with the increased thermal load that your power application demands.

The low speed regime simply exacerbates the problem. 

1. Where possible keep IAS over 200mph.

2. Avoid sustained vertical manoeuvres and if the speed drops below 160 with your nose high, cut power and pick up airspeed to get better than 200 before re-application.

3. Clue is in the name: War Emergency Power. Use it to run away cos you're out of ammo or ideas and make sure you have some smash on before hitting that button. It is not a "toggle to win" button in the midst of a dogfight.

 

 

There is a kernel of truth it what you say; I personally (and I suspect many others here) think EDs interpretation of the engine thermal limits are a little too strict. There are indeed reports out there of pilots giving their Merlin's quite a flogging and it being a seemingly robust powerplant. However...

There is such a thing as survivor bias; what about all those reports that couldn't be filed because the unfortunate pilot was KiA or a PoW because he overworked his engine too long or too hard?

No powerplant is indestructible and there are a host of factors that define how long an engine can last under duress.

Most of us are eager to see the implementation of EDs revised cooling model, as it has been teased for some 3-4 years now but the Pony & Spitfire are eminently flyable and fightable in DCS - if you are mindful of your speed and power settings and fly accordingly.

 

There is, indeed, survivor bias. However, ED implementation of this and some other instances of metal fatigue is extremely arcade like. Generally, failure in metal doesn't occur on the first event and, in the case of thermal stress, in a matter of seconds. While it may be possible to cause a Merlin to seize up from thermal stress, it most probably isn't going to occur in a few seconds of vertical flight under any condition. The most likely time for a thermal induced engine seizure is going to be at power reduction.

Generally, the pilot will survive his abuse of the airplane and it will kill or provide a harrowing experience to some poor bastard on a later flight, possibly the same poor bastard that did it.

Its pretty obvious ED is deviating from realism here in order to punish certain behaviors. Whether or not you view this as satisfactory is up to the individual. Personally, I operate on the belief that I am issued a brand new aircraft on every spawn until ED states otherwise so I find this sort of modeling to be disingenuous at best.

  • Like 2

 

 

 

 

EDsignaturefleet.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@=475FG= Dawger if we get factory brand new p51, engine brake in is required it consist 2 or 3 10 min engine run ups before first take off. Maybe this explains why this engine is not robust. 


Edited by grafspee
  • Like 1

System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, grafspee said:

@=475FG= Dawger if we get factory brand new p51, engine brake in is required it consist 2 or 3 10 min engine run ups before first take off. Maybe this explains why this engine is not robust. 

 

The break in would be done by maintenance prior to assigning it for a operational flight. So maybe that is the explanation. Maintenance ran the thing with no coolant for an hour on the ground in order to sabotage the war effort.

  • Like 3

 

 

 

 

EDsignaturefleet.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

It is counter intuitive to make a system that doesn't work when you need it the most. And will break an engine in 20 seconds if you are slightly to slow.

Sorry to inform you, in your car it's the very same. It happened to me once by the way, came from long run in the highway and quite "sudden" got out and stopped at the lights. Temps got mad, the engine stopped and wouldn't want to start up again. When I managed to do so it could only barely run, I arrived home quite slow. After that it leaked oil like mad until I got rid of that car. Doesn't matter if it makes sense to you personally or not, it works like it works, you like it or not :biggrin: .

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, grafspee said:

@Gunfreak It is not about what you need or not, it is about how things works in DCS, you can use WEP in vertical climbs but when speed drops you need to level out or cut throttle.

This is how it is in current DCS version, new cooling system model was announced some time ago, so maybe things, when it get released, change.

 

Hope not!! Why would anyone want real life physics and behaviour to be changed? That's for arcades and consoles gaming, here they try not to "amend" real life mate. It always was like that, we all want it to be kept that way.

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Sorry to inform you, in your car it's the very same. It happened to me once by the way, came from long run in the highway and quite "sudden" got out and stopped at the lights. Temps got mad, the engine stopped and wouldn't want to start up again. When I managed to do so it could only barely run, I arrived home quite slow. After that it leaked oil like mad until I got rid of that car. Doesn't matter if it makes sense to you personally or not, it works like it works, you like it or not :biggrin: .

That isn't even remotely close to the behavior of the P-51 Merlin in DCS, which seizes up after a very brief excursion with low airflow over the radiator. You basically are agreeing its wrong by posting what you did.

 

 

 

 

 

EDsignaturefleet.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

That isn't even remotely close to the behavior of the P-51 Merlin in DCS, which seizes up after a very brief excursion with low airflow over the radiator. You basically are agreeing its wrong by posting what you did.

 

It's exactly what some are telling here about verticals and slow flying then going WEP. You get no airflow into the radiator -> engine broken. I didn't fix my car, it was a very old car, but it was actually broken for the time remaining to it, and it was only my fault due to high running for too long and then a sudden stop of the "airflow". What can't you see in the obvious parallelism?

  • Like 1

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Hope not!! Why would anyone want real life physics and behaviour to be changed? That's for arcades and consoles gaming, here they try not to "amend" real life mate. It always was like that, we all want it to be kept that way.

If ED is redoing cooling model, it is clear proof that old one isn't exactly 1:1 with real thing. 

  • Like 1

System specs: I7 14700KF, Gigabyte Z690 Aorus Elite, 64GB DDR4 3600MHz, Gigabyte RTX 4090,Win 11, 48" OLED LG TV + 42" LG LED monitor

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They are redoing it to make it better. It can be the best you've seen in your life, unseen in any other commercial sim, and still be plenty of room for improvements 🤣 .

  • Like 1

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

-- Major-General Frederick B. Maurice

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...