AMRAAM question

[skywalker22]

9 hours ago, jazjar said:

 

That's actually really interesting.  This means there's a difference in behavior between RWS and TWS,  I might try the same with STT sometime and see what happens.  

I would rather say that`s rathers none-interesting  more like anticipated, specially if you know that RWS does not create any track file, so has no memory what so ever. Which is completely different for TWS, which creates track file and has some data, memory about missile. STT should act exactly the same as TWS, since it also creates (rather maintains from a bugged target) a track file.

[TEOMOOSE]

7 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

I would rather say that`s rathers none-interesting  more like anticipated, specially if you know that RWS does not create any track file, so has no memory what so ever. Which is completely different for TWS, which creates track file and has some data, memory about missile. STT should act exactly the same as TWS, since it also creates (rather maintains from a bugged target) a track file.

it sure does create track files, and 4 of them actually. Same as TWS. Try using the fcr with the D/L filtered out, or have no awacs on the mission, you will see that the symbologies are the same. 

Edited May 16, 2022 by TEOMOOSE

[skywalker22]

25 minutes ago, TEOMOOSE said:

it sure does create track files, and 4 of them actually. Same as TWS. Try using the fcr with the D/L filtered out, or have no awacs on the mission, you will see that the symbologies are the same. 

 

you mean STT? 

[TEOMOOSE]

1 hour ago, TEOMOOSE said:

RWS does not create any track file,

It does. - Search, - track, - system, and - bug. Now we have to understand a few things here. In RWS we have two ways of targeting, #1: Situational Awareness Mode (SAM) and, #2: Single Target Track (STT). 

SAM mode allows you to BUG and track one or two aircraft simultaneously while maintaining a RWS scan, this is called Two Target SAM mode, or TTS.

STT is obviously is a Single Target Track, which you could do if you want to sort a single target, or wanna increase your PK, but you will loose sa on the FCR.

RWS and its sub modes should be the most powerful and reliable in Dcs F-16, and 2nd TWS which is using less energy and easy to notch, but you can track and target multiple aircraft at once.

Edited May 16, 2022 by TEOMOOSE

[skywalker22]

On 5/8/2022 at 8:07 PM, dundun92 said:

In DCS, the former happens, if you regain lock the missile exits INS mode and re-gains mid course DL. This is also unrealistic. IRL datalink channels are correlated to the radar track; the radar will not correlate a completely new track to an old one.

Exactly. I think we missed the point of this thread, and what OP has been asking.

IRL: when AMRAAM looses datalink (radio) connection with a mother aircraft, it can ONLY fly by it self toward the target. Even reacquiring the target with a radar won`t establish connection again. Which is not the case in DCS. Here is my proof of it.

And this should be considered as bug.

 

Tacview-20220521-112823-DCS.zip.acmi

[skywalker22]

This one is a perfect example, my 1st shot missile. How AMRAAM get re-connected with mother aircraft. I had T4 on my HUD when reacquired the F-14 again.

So another question rises: Is AMRAAM, when going pitbull (MPRF active), still able to communicate and be guided with mother aircraft??

Tacview-20220521-115235-reacquite_target.zip.acmi

But the point is, that after loosing radio connection, AMRAAM cannot be guided in any ways from mother aircraft what so ever! And my 2nd track would never happen.

[Frederf]

It's not that it loses connection, it's that the radar can't be sure the new target and old target are the same. You have a good 13 seconds of track coasting. If it picks up within that coast time then guidance continues. If not then new track is new target.

[skywalker22]

For each missile launch a new track file is created, right? TWS, RWS, STT, doesn`t matter. And when a data link connection with a missile already in the air is lost, that track file becomes a garbage, right?

Or not? In DCS seem its not. But as far as I have been told and read IRL it is.

@BIGNEWYcan you please verify how is that IRL, please. 

[MARLAN_]

I'm not familiar with the nuance of how this applies to the F-16, but I can explain how it should work in the F-18 (not necessarily how it is currently implemented) and this may help clear up some things possibly. Keep in mind this does talk about the F-18's MSI so parts of this won't apply to the F-16.

-> When an AMRAAM is launched, it guides towards the track file designated as the L&S at time of launch.

-> Losing radar to that targeted track file by itself is not relevant for losing support to the missile. As long as your radar can still see your own missile (because this is (simply put) how support is data transferred with the C5) it can continue to support it based on other sensors, such as offboard track information (AWACS, Fighter-To-Fighter, etc.), FLIR, etc. albeit at varying levels of track quality.

-> If you lose radar contribution to a track file that is only supported by your radar, the track file is marked for deletion (MEM/RMEM) after extrapolating for some time (I believe it is 1 radar frame, but I can't find a source on that part right now). If radar support is regained before the track file is deleted, that track file is still correlated and the missile can continue being supported. If the track file is deleted, even if the target is reacquired by your radar, it's too late, correlation has been lost and support for your missile cannot be regained. Correlation is very important in real world to ensure interlopers aren't accidentally targeted. AIC/ABM's are very important for this part of it.

Other notes

-> An active AMRAAM can still be supported by your ownship radar. I believe this is already correctly modeled in DCS because supporting to timeout does increase Pk.

-> Track files are not created at launch, they are created by various different sensors and the track file is maintained by those sensors. In the case of the F-16 I believe this may only be the radar (but again, I'm unsure of the specifics of the F-16).

Edited May 21, 2022 by MARLAN_

[Aquorys]

If this is supposed to be a real life question rather than an in-game question, there is no single answer to this question, because the behavior depends on the situation (e.g., one vs. multiple aircraft) and the capabilities of the platform (aircraft) being used.