Force Trim - Time Out

[Caldera]

Hey all,

I did not read all of the Force Trim topic.  It was too large and sadly my attention span is too small.

But...

I have been thinking about suggesting an additional force trim mode and I was wondering what other thoughts were.  This mode would be a modification of Central Position Trimmer Mode. 

The true weakness of Central Position mode mode is that you can lose all control if you do not re-center.  The true strength is an almost bumpless transfer if you do re-center.

I have been using Central Position mode for the peddles and using INSTANT TRIM mode for cyclic.  The peddles are allot easier to re-center because there are only two positions from center.  The two positions are left or right.  For the cyclic (joystick) there are four positions from center.  Those positions are left, right, forward or back.

Just considering the peddles, once trim is set, you only have to go one way to return to center.   For example, going in to a hover that I want to maintain for awhile I might push the left peddle and then set the trimmer.  The only time can I get really messed up is if the the aircraft continues to rotate to the right. 

This is because my flight instincts take over...

I would instinctively push the pedals more to the left.  Because I have not re-centered, the aircraft rotates more to the right so I push more left peddle.  My problem gets worse and worse.  For the same maneuver, after setting the trim if the aircraft begins to rotate to the left, then instinctively I would add right peddle (release left peddle).  I would do so until the rotation stops.   I would hardly notice any problem, because in that process I have moved the peddles through the center position to stop the rotation and now have full control.

The joystick controlling cyclic seems to add allot more difficulty returning to center if your flight instincts take over.   Almost exponential...

 

So my suggestion is a timer control applied to the Central Position mode in the form of another control mode option (EX: Central Trim Time Delay).  It would work by doing three things when a new trim set point was made.

1. A short inverse timer (4-6 seconds?) would start that would count down until the controls are re-centered
2. When the timer = 0 and the controls are not re-centered then the control would ramp to the trim set point and then release control
3. A SCAS alarm would sound until the controls were re-centered shortly after the timer had started (2-3 seconds?)

I don't want to make a suggestion to ED if there is not any community buy in.  Please tell me what you think.

Caldera

 

 

[Raptor9]

I think 4-6 seconds would be way to long, and there should not be SCAS alarm because that wouldn't be accurate to the real aircraft and that tone indicates specific things within the AH-64. It's one thing to implement specific control behaviors to account for various hardware options in the game, but changing the nature of the simulated aircraft's actual avionics seems going to far.

Personally, I think a better solution would be to reduce the speed that Instant Trim moves to the new center, so that it matches the speed of the Default trim option in the other ED helicopters. This would make the aircraft more standardized within the ED helo line-up and easier to transition between them, especially if those wanted to use the UH-1 as a trainer aircraft for the AH-64.

If they wanted to retain the INSTANT TRIM (FFB Friendly) option as is for the FFB friendly behavior, I would suggest that they simply copy the INSTANT TRIM logic to a new option and slow down the re-centering position to match the Default option in the other helos.  Maybe even label it "Default" in the Special options so players understand what they are getting when coming from other helo modules like the Ka-50.

[Floyd1212]

In that (ridiculously) long Force Trim thread, there was a suggestion made for adding a slight time delay to the Instant Trim mode, as well as the concept of ramping, or "blending" in the difference between the trimmed position and the actual position of your joystick after using the "trim reset" function they added.

There was also the suggestion of ignoring the axis values as the stick returns to center after pressing the force trim button in Central Position Trim mode, but not ignoring any values if you move the axis in a positive deflection away from the center.

[Swift.]

A user editable time delay to the instant mode would probably go a long way to solving peoples headaches. Just have a slider or freetext field in the special options where the user can enter a time eg, 0.8 seconds. Problem solved

[M1Combat]

I don't understand the problem this tries to solve.

5 hours ago, Caldera said:

Just considering the peddles, once trim is set, you only have to go one way to return to center.   For example, going in to a hover that I want to maintain for awhile I might push the left peddle and then set the trimmer.  The only time can I get really messed up is if the the aircraft continues to rotate to the right. 

This is because my flight instincts take over...

I would instinctively push the pedals more to the left.  Because I have not re-centered, the aircraft rotates more to the right so I push more left peddle.  My problem gets worse and worse. For the same maneuver, after setting the trim if the aircraft begins to rotate to the left, then instinctively I would add right peddle (release left peddle).  I would do so until the rotation stops. 

 

 

I don't recall this happening to me or I am not understanding what's hapening to you :).

[Raptor9]

5 hours ago, Swift. said:

A user editable time delay to the instant mode would probably go a long way to solving peoples headaches. Just have a slider or freetext field in the special options where the user can enter a time eg, 0.8 seconds. Problem solved

That is an excellent idea.

[Scaley]

4 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

That is an excellent idea.

The odd thing is the Ka-50 has had a lua line you can edit to change the blend-in time for the trim for years (like 10 I think). The solution to this is known by ED, they just didn't implement it...

[Sarge55]

They probably don’t know it’s there.

The Ka-50 devs from then are long gone I presume. 

[Caldera]

Thanks for all the replies, a good forum!

The problem of course, most people know and ED knows very well, there is almost always a compromise made for a simulation. 

A big compromise for the Apache is that the our real world joysticks and real world rudder peddles have spring return to center, for the most part, and do not match the real world aircraft controls.   

If I may quote Casmo, "How I deal with the trimmer...".  

Casmo, Schoolio64D and Eagle7,  may have indicated at one time or another some issue with trimmer.  Casmo and Schoolio64D in Apache and Eagle7 in commercial experience.  I believe this to be true, forgive me if I am not correct.   All are self stated to have real world experience and all have settled on the best compromise.  So in my opinion, obtain a true FFB control system or accept the compromise. 

For my part, I have 000.00% real world experience so I pay attention to those that do.

 

The closest approximation for spring return to center controls seem to me to be most accurately modeled by the Central Trimmer mode.  This mode provides a bumpless transfer of the controls just as a true FFB control would do.  I think most people naturally use it if they have spring return to center controls.  At least they do initially.   

The biggest problem with Central Trim is that you lose all aircraft control until the control is re-centered.  This is because flying instincts take over and the control is not re-centered after trimming.  Crashing for an unexplainable reason is not as much fun as just flying around, so people try out Instant Trim.

It is also my opinion, that the very best mode is not using force trim at all.  But that gets tiresome and I can not use the mouse when doing so.  So for compromise, I use both modes simultaneously.  I use Instant for cyclic and Central for peddles.  Both of these modes have pro's and con's.  

I think this is a good discussion for minimizing the con's!

 

So how about:

1. A short inverse timer (2-3 seconds?) would start that would count down until the controls are re-centered
2. When the timer = 0 and the controls are not re-centered then the control would ramp to the trim set point and then release control (AKA Instant Trim)
3. A special sound would stay on to indicate that the controls were not re-centered shortly after the timer had started (1-2 seconds?)
4. Combine the effects of Instant and Central Trim modes for items 1 2 3 above some how so that all control is not ever lost at any time

Caldera

Edited May 9, 2022 by Caldera

[Kharrn]

vor 24 Minuten schrieb Caldera:

[shortened]

 

So how about:

1. A short inverse timer (2-3 seconds?) would start that would count down until the controls are re-centered
2. When the timer = 0 and the controls are not re-centered then the control would ramp to the trim set point and then release control
3. A special sound would stay on to indicate that the controls were not re-centered shortly after the timer had started (1-2 seconds?)
4. Combine the effects of Instant and Central Trim modes for items 1 2 3 above some how so that all control is not ever lost at any time

Caldera

1. too long i think
2. i dont fully understand but i guess you mean like it is with instant mode atm
3. please no

 

Like Raptor9 and Swift suggested:

vor 21 Stunden schrieb Swift.:

A user editable time delay to the instant mode would probably go a long way to solving peoples headaches. Just have a slider or freetext field in the special options where the user can enter a time eg, 0.8 seconds. Problem solved

just this. New trim mode, call it "delayed" and put a user option for 0 sec to say 4 sec range, with 0.1sec increments and all is good.

K

[Caldera]

Kharm,

 

1. A short inverse timer (2-3 seconds?) would start that would count down until the controls are re-centered

This one could be variable and adjustable by the player, as you say.

 

2. When the timer = 0 and the controls are not re-centered then the control would ramp to the trim set point and then release control (AKA Instant Trim)

OK, be careful what is wished for I guess. 

Yes, this would indeed put you back in the Instant Trim mode if the player had not returned the control to center after the timer had run out.  It would be almost exactly as if the Instant Trim had been actuated x.xx seconds ago as determined by the inverse timer. 

I just do not see any way to align the physical control position of the game controller to the actual game trim set point position and prevent the "Instant Trim offset bump" nor prevent the "Central Trim total loss of control" if the player has not re-centered.  It is not possible.  In all automatic controls, I have found that sooner or later you might need to give control back and let a person deal with the result when things get too far out of whack.  Just let them know you are doing it...

My goal here is too simply to return control to the player.  The end result would be expected, if not exactly the most pleasant or desired, and be very similar to how Instant Trim currently works.

 

3. A special sound would stay on to indicate that the controls were not re-centered shortly after the timer had started (1-2 seconds?)

I would disagree, this one could be the most valuable of all  my suggestions and may require no other modification all by itself.

How does the player currently know that the controls are not re-centered? 

There currently is not much feed back at all.    The biggy is noticing that you have already lost too much control already and cannot recover.  However, if the player simply re-centers within the timer, then there is no sound played at all.  It would be transparent when done correctly, but still provide a compromising and effective feed back if not done correctly.

This time could also be set as a variable, possibly with a time set longer than the inverse timer it would not sound at all ever or a simply enable disable check on the GUI.

 

4. Combine the effects of Instant and Central Trim modes for items 1 2 3 above some how so that all control is not ever lost at any time

What we all really want other than a full  Brunner controls set-up or having an Apache parked in the front yard?

 

Caldera