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Pilot gun aim is way off after cold start. Hot start is fine. Tracks included.


DJ_9mm
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Here are two tracks from a generated fast mission. First, I use the mission as-is and start airborne. I go into a stable hover, engage attitude hold, and take some shots at the ground. The aim is fairly close with manual range set to the default 1500, then I turn on auto ranging and the aim gets much better. Everything works as expected.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/10oFmdQXqs_vEOJJEQb8IZ0EBTTOm9S2K/view?usp=sharing

Then I edited the mission to start cold, from the ramp at an air base. I go through the cold start. I wait for the INU to do it's thing, then I go into a stable hover and shoot at the ground. As you can see in the track, the aim is way off, even with auto ranging. I mean, it's not even close, and it's a night and day difference from the mission where I did a hot start. In case you think I forgot to turn on the radar altimeter, you can see on the HUD that it is working. Also, the radar altimeter is now on by default in cold starts. You don't have to turn it on manually.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/10qJQsJL2SJKrWzSak8HKh3XPqczDuwAM/view?usp=sharing

Here's the mission file, in case it matters.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1161nKSRN3YE8V65H23_FV-G9Nl1_K7_Z/view?usp=sharing


Edited by DJ_9mm
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Here's a seemingly related clue. After a cold start, slaving George to the PHS is bugged. He slaves to a spot up and to the right of where the PHS LOS reticle is aimed. George slaves the TADS with the exact same amount of error as the gun has. In fact, if I fire the gun while aiming with the pilot sight, then slave george to the same spot, he slaves to the exact same place where the gun erroneously fired. With a hot start, this problem doesn't happen. Clearly, these bugs are related.

Here's the problem happening on a cold start: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1174585GTnVHkHyQcrO9bmbgJCj1fDy7H/view?usp=sharing

Here's the problem NOT happening on a hot start: https://drive.google.com/file/d/11FUQd2NaBXpb4g4KTuEGAmz81WnPopMg/view?usp=sharing

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6 hours ago, DJ_9mm said:

Here are two tracks from a generated fast mission. First, I use the mission as-is and start airborne. I go into a stable hover, engage attitude hold, and take some shots at the ground. The aim is fairly close with manual range set to the default 1500, then I turn on auto ranging and the aim gets much better. Everything works as expected.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/10oFmdQXqs_vEOJJEQb8IZ0EBTTOm9S2K/view?usp=sharing

Then I edited the mission to start cold, from the ramp at an air base. I go through the cold start. I wait for the INU to do it's thing, then I go into a stable hover and shoot at the ground. As you can see in the track, the aim is way off, even with auto ranging. I mean, it's not even close, and it's a night and day difference from the mission where I did a hot start. In case you think I forgot to turn on the radar altimeter, you can see on the HUD that it is working. Also, the radar altimeter is now on by default in cold starts. You don't have to turn it on manually.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/10qJQsJL2SJKrWzSak8HKh3XPqczDuwAM/view?usp=sharing

Here's the mission file, in case it matters.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1161nKSRN3YE8V65H23_FV-G9Nl1_K7_Z/view?usp=sharing

 

As mentioned above you need to do the boresight procedure when doing a cold start. 


When you first jump into the cockpit make sure your view is correct, Numpad 5, and make sure your trackIR is also center, then continue with the boresight procedure. For me it seems to be ok, I use VR mostly and always reset my view at the start of the mission and it seems to help. 

thanks

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb opps:

From cold start, you must perform IHADSS boresight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFv_ACD3fPE

image.png

image.png

 

 

Also remember to Boresight IHADSS for both seats, Pilot and CPG! So that if you ever want to switch seat (in SP) you dont have to boresight "in flight".

 

vor 19 Minuten schrieb BIGNEWY:

As mentioned above you need to do the boresight procedure when doing a cold start. 


When you first jump into the cockpit make sure your view is correct, Numpad 5, and make sure your trackIR is also center, then continue with the boresight procedure. For me it seems to be ok, I use VR mostly and always reset my view at the start of the mission and it seems to help. 

thanks

Thy @BIGNEWY

could you maybe elaborate on this a little further? am i doing the boresight wrong if i shift my "cockpit camera" with rctrl+shift+numpadnumbers downwards (in the vertical axis)? because if i dont do that a little i wont be able to boresight correctly... (align IHADDS "cross" to the yellow dot in the middle of the rings and get the separation of the rings roughly equal)

 

Thy

K

 

 

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Just now, Kharrn said:

could you maybe elaborate on this a little further? am i doing the boresight wrong if i shift my "cockpit camera" with rctrl+shift+numpadnumbers downwards (in the vertical axis)? because if i dont do that a little i wont be able to boresight correctly... (align IHADDS "cross" to the yellow dot in the middle of the rings and get the separation of the rings roughly equal)

Sure, 

the point I am trying to make especially for users who have headtracking is to ensure your physical head position is also calibrated with your headtracking, before doing the AH-64D boresight procedure. 

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vor 2 Minuten schrieb BIGNEWY:

Sure, 

the point I am trying to make especially for users who have headtracking is to ensure your physical head position is also calibrated with your headtracking, before doing the AH-64D boresight procedure. 

thy 🙂 yeah i do kinda the same procedure. num5, numenter and my key to reset Tobii center position as soon as i enter the pit (or corresponding buttons for VR view reset)

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HI.

In my side, the boresight procedure requires to "descend my head position" a bit (Rctrl+Rshift+Numpad2 a few times), so when centering the cross and geting the two circles they can be equidistant. And yes, I do center my TrackIr view and my "ingame head" (Numpad5) before I start the boresight procedure. No need for rising it back after it, because the descent is really small and I don't loose any sighting options, but I wonder if that is how it is meant to be. After that, the targeting and shooting goes really well, I must say, so no complaint.

Saludos.

Saca111


Edited by Sacarino111
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4 hours ago, DJ_9mm said:

Thanks for the suggestions, but boresighting didn't help. See track.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/11QgYeZcN77wojLhPV0elm1FSRL6KT513/view?usp=sharing

You boresighted wrong. Watch carefully video I posted. You must match rings AND IHADSS's crosshair too.

BAD alignment

image.png

GOOD alignment

image.png


Edited by opps
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I find with my head tracking I often want to re-center it. I guess I must just be moving around in my seat and repositioning, sitting a little higher or whatever. I don't quite get how that would translate to my original boresight setup? Have I ruined my boresight alignment by not keeping the exact same seating position for the whole session?

Also, how does it work for a hot start if your head tracking alignment wasn't part of the process?

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My common sense (might have nothing to do with reality) would dictate that the head tracking (trackIR or similar) centering only affects what input trackIR is giving DCS. So let's say your centered head position in xyz coordinates is (0,0,0) and you're looking directly forward. Then you adjust to a more comfortable position in your chair and now your head rests naturally at (5,-3,0), and this is the input DCS is getting. Now you can either reset your trackIR to regard your current position as the center, again giving DCS the input of (0,0,0), or move back to the original position in your chair, resulting in same input. DCS wouldn't know which option you did, and doesn't care, it just sees the control input. So you can recenter as much as you want, and it has no effect on boresight (or anything else). I recenter often while flying, and still hit my targets with the cannon.

So the boresighting really is just a (annoying) gimmick implemented for "realism", and only regards where the virtual pilot head is and where it's looking at - you can control the head by keyboard, trackir, or whatever else you bind to it. TrackIR internal parameters, such as centering, has no more effect, as e.g. joystick calibration would if the head position/direction was bound to a joystick axis. So it can be perfectly boresighted automatically during hotstart without knowing anything about your controls and inputs and their centers or calibrations.

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5 hours ago, Toge said:

So the boresighting really is just a (annoying) gimmick implemented for "realism"

Sure, though "annoying" is subjective, and you could say that about a great many things in DCS. Maverick to TGP boresighting is another example, so is INS alignment. 

It'd be great if DCS had dynamic and mission-agnostic startup type settings, but until that happens this is what we have.

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55 minutes ago, Bunny Clark said:

Sure, though "annoying" is subjective, and you could say that about a great many things in DCS. Maverick to TGP boresighting is another example, so is INS alignment. 

It'd be great if DCS had dynamic and mission-agnostic startup type settings, but until that happens this is what we have.

Ah, didn't mean to complain, should have read what and how I wrote. I absolutely appreciate the attention to detail and realistically implemented modules. The boresighting process just happens to be the least favorite part of cold starts for me, and after a while starts to feel like a chore. I'm also skipping all tests etc and just turn on what I have to, so I'm not really the target audience of that particular feature, but it's great to have all that detail available.

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1 hour ago, Toge said:

after a while starts to feel like a chore. I'm also skipping all tests etc and just turn on what I have to, so I'm not really the target audience of that particular feature, but it's great to have all that detail available.

I totally agree. I wish we had the ability to turn off things like HMD alignment and Maverick boresighting in settings. I enjoy the realism of doing it, but I also completely understand why others don't and think they should have that option. I also skip all the tests and checks when I do a cold start, but enjoy doing the alignment process, everyone has their own way they like to play the game and that's alright. 

Just like I think we should have the ability to dynamically switch between hot and cold start at the beginning of a mission. Maybe one day I want to do it, the next I don't. Or I want to fly a mission but am a bit short on play time. Or I do a cold start, mess up a mission, and don't want to go through the whole cold start process to give the mission another try. I don't think the mission designer should be the one to dictate if you must do a cold start or not. 

Plus, as a mission designer myself, maintaining both hot start and cold start versions of a campaign is a chore.

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its almost impossible to boresite accurately in VR for some reason.

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  • 1 month later...

@BIGNEWY A questions if I could trouble you..... in a hot start the system boresight is already setup, at the commencement of a hot start the system knows nothing about the crosshair position of your HMD since there was no HMD .... yet it sets the boresight anyway. 


The HMD crosshairs move due to physical head movement as communicated by the TrackIR.

TRackIR has zero input to the games boresight setup? 

So the HMD crosshairs really have no impact on boresighting accuracy ? The only thing that matters from an accuracy standpoint is the cockpit camera head position (controlled by the in game setting) that results in getting the circles equidistant? 


Edited by Dallas88B

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1 hour ago, Dallas88B said:

So the HMD crosshairs really have no impact on boresighting accuracy ? The only thing that matters from an accuracy standpoint is the cockpit camera head position (controlled by the in game setting) that results in getting the circles equidistant? 

The HMD crosshairs do indeed affect the boresight accuracy. You need to have the HMD crosshairs aimed at the bullseye for the HMD to properly boresight.

The bullseye rings being drawn separately, creating the bullseye "depth", is an inaccuracy. In reality, the bullseye itself is a singular pattern projected inside the BRU like a rifle scope. You need to align your head at the right position behind the BRU to even see the bullseye in real-life. So really, the only positioning alignment that happens in real life is to center the BRU within the sight lens of the BRU itself.

image.png

As for how ED has simulated the boresight accuracy between hot started aircraft versus cold started aircraft, I don't know. Maybe they have a slight bias built into the system during cold starts that isn't there when doing a hot start or air start.


Edited by Raptor9
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@Raptor9 Thank you so much for your reply.

I have been experimenting a bit .... if one does the boresight procedure using the Cockpit Camera Move commands to get the rings centered and then deliberately sets the HMD cross hairs off to (say) the right (rather than centered over the bullseye) before pressing the boresight now button .....its not good !

The resulting IHADSS Symbology shows the Field of View set well off to the right even though the pilot is looking ahead.

Setting the cross hairs correctly results in the "Field of View" box being centrally located in the "Field of Regard" box and it aligns with the pilots direction of sight.

I think that if the TrackIR / Delanclip or whatever head tracking is subsequently (ie: after boresighting and correctly setting the HMD crosshairs) adjusted to move the pilots head position, such adjustment has no effect on the HMD cross hairs / boresight accuracy and field of view box position. Is that correct?


Edited by Dallas88B
fixed typo

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33 minutes ago, Dallas88B said:

I think that if the TrackIR / Delanclip or whatever head tracking is subsequently (ie: after boresighting and correctly setting the HMD crosshairs) adjusted to move the pilots head position, such adjustment has no effect on the HMD cross hairs / boresight accuracy and field of view box position. Is that correct?

I've never had issues with re-centering my TrackIR mid-mission. TrackIR just sets the in-game head position in rotation and translation axes, but the AH-64D IHADSS in game is tracking the simulated head position in-game, not your physical head. TrackIR is just an input to move a set of in-game axes around. The DCS AH-64D isn't tracking your head through your TrackIR sensor, it's only moving the in-game head position based on the inputs from the TrackIR.


Edited by Raptor9
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25 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

TrackIR is just an input to move a set of in-game axes around.

Yay ! ... I finally understand.... Thank you.

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  • 3 months later...

For those who would like to skip the HMD bore sight procedure during a cold start like me, you can do what I do, which is to save a snap view that has the bore sight aligned and just hold that snap view, press bore sight and you're done. You can thank me later

 


Edited by Picure
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On 10/9/2022 at 4:31 AM, Picure said:

For those who would like to skip the HMD bore sight procedure during a cold start like me, you can do what I do, which is to save a snap view that has the bore sight aligned and just hold that snap view, press bore sight and you're done. You can thank me later

 

 

Here are the current default views for both Pilot and CPG that are for boresighting gun and NVG, if anyone needs them. Version it is tested with is 2.7.18.

Drop SnapViews.lua into your USER*\Saved Games\DCS**\Config\View folder

*Windows User Name

**or OpenBeta

 

 

 

SnapViews.lua


Edited by Shaman
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