Jump to content

Trimming the Ka-50


Acedy

Recommended Posts

Hi!

First post.

 

I've been reading the forum but I can't find the answer...

Is it possible to switch to OFF the TRIM ?

I'd like to have the option to switch it off, like in the Bell 412, A109 and AW139 I fly in real life.

In real life is only mandatory to use the trim in IFR flights.

 

With my logitech is a pain in the ass to fly with trim on.

 

Best regards

Aser

 

to turn off trim, hit the LeftCtrl-T

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 430
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

No, it's not possible to turn it off in the Ka-50. You'll have to wait for the AH-64A module for that. ;)

 

About flying. Can you tell me how much different is the flying with Apache compared to Ka-50 ? I really have no clue. Is it harder or easier to control ?

Callsign Lycanthrope79

Link to comment
Share on other sites

About flying. Can you tell me how much different is the flying with Apache compared to Ka-50 ? I really have no clue. Is it harder or easier to control ?

 

It's most likely a lot harder, especially in a hover. Just a guess here though.

Good, fast, cheap. Choose any two.

Come let's eat grandpa!

Use punctuation, save lives!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's most likely a lot harder, especially in a hover. Just a guess here though.

 

Damn, that must be one hell of a beast to control then. :joystick:

Though by the time it will be released i might have learned to fly this Hokum finally. :D

Callsign Lycanthrope79

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only thing "harder" is the fact that you have to do a lot more pedal adjustments.

 

Aser: As far as the force trim goes, there is an autopilot mode in the Ka-50 called Flight Director, which would be more like the SAS (stability augmentation system) mode that you're used to on the 412. With Flight Director mode off, the Ka-50 acts like it's in ATT (attitude) mode on the 412. If that helps you any. ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Does that keep it off for good? I don't know because I never use it, since it's not something the real aircraft can do.

 

If you never hit trim again after trim reset, it will keep it off for good. However, a real aircraft does have trim capability. In a Kamov-50, there is no such thing as trim reset but I think they put it in there because joysticks don't simulate the real cyclic stick properly. In real life, after trimming, the stick will remain in that position but joysticks have a centering spring which doesn't allow for this to be simulated properly. Force feedback joysticks do simulate it a bit better but there is a trim bug with force feedback joysticks currently in missions you start in air instead of cold start..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the whole Trim thing needs to be set as a realism option. Personally I like to fly full simulation, and am prepared to do the research and have put in the time to learn how to apply trim realistically ingame, but im finding a few of my regular multiplay friends are struggling with the trim, and its turning them off this game.

 

Setting the game to simulation, but then turning on "easy flight" is not really an option as it neuters this heli too much toward arcade.

 

Lets face it, anybody that isnt using pedals will be twisting there cyclic, while trying to hold down trim, input collective, and trying to pan and lock SHKVAL at the same time. If they dont have TrackIR as well, this is complicated even further.

 

I think this is too much for most people to manage without a full HOTAS, Pedal, TrackIR combination.

 

Personally I'd like to see a Trim option added to the "Simulation" options

 

eg:

 

1. Realistic KA50 Trim

2. Standard Trim(Typically like what we have seen in LB and EECH series)

 

This will allow more people to take on this excellant helicopter simulation. Im sure once most people become comfortable with the helicopter they could tackle the realistic trim later on.

 

My thoughts anyhow :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, it's not possible to turn it off in the Ka-50. You'll have to wait for the AH-64A module for that. ;)

 

I'll tell you what, i'd hate to be flying without force trim. In the Longbow its just way to convenient. It doesn't provide total hands off the controls, not that you'd ever really want you're hands off the controls in a helicopter anyway, but it definately decreases the workload for the pilot. It also is really nice in flight too, set the cyclic where you want it, pull in the required cruise torque, and life is peachy.

 

Brad

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks to all for the replies,

 

AphaOneSix:

I understand what you have said but It'd be great to have a trim off switch like in western helicopters. (just a key to sithc it on off would help people without hotas+pedals etc.)

My problem is that I don't have pedal or HOTAS , and my ruder twisting joistick is not very good.

In real life is a lot easier to fly a helicopter with trim on because the stick maintain the position, also the pedals, here the big problem is the joistick recenters itself :joystick: so I don't "feel" where are the controls.. :noexpression:

 

Anyway, for the first time we have "REAL" helicopter simulator!

I even can't imagine the potential for this sim! :pilotfly:

 

Best regards

Aser

 

 

The only thing "harder" is the fact that you have to do a lot more pedal adjustments.

 

Aser: As far as the force trim goes, there is an autopilot mode in the Ka-50 called Flight Director, which would be more like the SAS (stability augmentation system) mode that you're used to on the 412. With Flight Director mode off, the Ka-50 acts like it's in ATT (attitude) mode on the 412. If that helps you any. ;)

AW-139 Pilot

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah I can't help with the recentering thing. I have just sort of gotten used to it, but it does make me seriously want a force feedback stick...and maybe someone needs to build force feedback pedals, too.

 

There is an option (ctrl+enter, i think?) to open a small window that shows all of your control positions. I never use it, but I know many people use it at first to get a feel for where the controls are.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pushing and releasing trim also resets the attitude reference for the flight director. The delay built in when you release trim button (.5 sec) I think is part of what gets folks in trouble. Coupled with the fact that the stick centers you have situations where the controls are doing something totally different from the physical position of the joystick.

 

The way I try to see it, is that I am trimming my aircraft to an attitude, then when I release trim button and neutralize stick I know I still actually have the stick in that trimmed position and so I look at the hud cues for attitude and bank to remind me where the attitude reference is trimmed too. This is certainly tougher than having the stick stay where you trim it but even in that situation you normally trim back to neutral after your input is in place (Bank or pitch)

 

Helps that I have always been a trim button pusher I guess.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yup, with a force feedback joystick you'd actually get to feel what the actual aircraft is doing. I have a pretty solid warm and fuzzy that force trim is force trim is force trim. It's a system using magnets to hold the controls at a specific point to decrease pilot work load. If I want the nose to be 10 degrees nose low, then I set the cyclic there, and it stays there. With a regular ol' joystick you can't really simulate what the actual aircraft cyclic is doing unfortunately. That's the biggest problem i'm having right now because I know what force trim is and what it does for me, but my joystick doesn't actually simulate it, which is a bummer.

 

Brad

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pushing and releasing trim also resets the attitude reference for the flight director. The delay built in when you release trim button (.5 sec) I think is part of what gets folks in trouble.

Yup and that's because you have to manualy center the stick (or let go but then you can have oscilation around center) in that 0.5 of a second.

A real Ka-50 pilot does not have to do this, his stick stays in the position he left it when he peleased the trim button. See the trim button not as a trim but as a lock which lock your controls.

Now normal stick owners can't do this because upon locking the controls and releasing them, their stick re-centers again, unlike the real Ka-50. Therefore the developers created the idea of the 0.5 sec delay for you to center your stick.

 

 

 

Coupled with the fact that the stick centers you have situations where the controls are doing something totally different from the physical position of the joystick.

Yes and this is because the stick isn't prefectly centered after that 0.5 second delay. The moment you release trim, the inputvalues of your controls are locked (see above). You now have 0.5 secs to center the controls.

- If you center your controls perfectly within that 0.5 sec delay, the inputvalues at that point are zero and nothing is added to the control input in the heli. You can then move the controls again from center position to gain control again and retrim when when needed...etc...etc...

- If your controls are not centered after that 0.5 sec delay, the actual inputvalues at that moment are added to the ones you had set with the trim you did before and your heli goes bananas (if controls are still way out of center).

 

It's not that hard to understand but it's quite hard to get used to...:joystick:

Win11 Pro 64-bit, Ryzen 5800X3D, Corsair H115i, Gigabyte X570S UD, EVGA 3080Ti XC3 Ultra 12GB, 64 GB DDR4 G.Skill 3600. Monitors: LG 27GL850-B27 2560x1440 + Samsung SyncMaster 2443 1920x1200, HOTAS: Warthog with Virpil WarBRD base, MFG Crosswind combat pedals, TrackIR4, Rift-S.

Personal Wish List: A6 Intruder, Vietnam theater, decent ATC module, better VR performance!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Trimming

 

:music_whistling:

 

I was mostly looking for some Intel regarding trimming , i mean for a helicopter it is essential even more than for an airplane but is it suppose to be such a struggle or am i learning it the wrong way.

 

I've learned a lot of important stuff the past week regarding the ka50 and the only thing that's really hard at the moment for me is trimming, is it supposed to be such a struggle? (I've only been flying flight sims so got no real heli experience)

 

Even with say autohover, alt hold, pitch hld etc on it's sometimes just a real struggle to get the helicopter to face the angle you want or to stay still in the air. Particiluarly i've problems with landing after a mission, sure i've yet not spent too much time with the landing tutorial but at the moment i am trying to be in control of the aircraft instead of the aircraft having control over me.

 

Are there any special tips or such?

 

At the moment if this was in real life and i had to land i'd be terrifyed with the the little experience i have at the moment, it just feels like i am not in control, the gunship is drifting off way to often to angles n heights i don't agree with.

 

// zauii

Link to comment
Share on other sites

trimmer implementation

 

Hi!

 

I've read many posts about how difficult it is to trim the Ka-50 in DCS and how some people prefer to fly in flight director mode or even with AP off.

 

After some experiments I believe I've found the reason for that. I think it's the fact that when the trimmer button is pressed, the new stick center does not account for the AP inputs. Note that I don't use a force-feedback joystick. I don't know if this also applies to FF joysticks.

 

 

 

Steps to reproduce the problem

 

1. Make sure there is no wind and that helicopter CG is in the center.

 

2. Switch on all AP channels and trim the helicopter so that it hovers hands-off.

 

3. Push the cyclic to the right and press (and release) the trimmer button. Verify that the new cyclic stick center is offset to the right (Enter+RCtrl) and that AP tries to maintain a right bank. Note that with larger cyclic stick center offset and larger AP bank attitude, it is easier observe the effect, but it is more difficult to control the helicopter (obviously).

 

4. Bring the helicopter back into a stable hover without pressing the trimmer button. Considerable amount of left stick input will be necessary.

 

5. Press and release the trimmer button. I would expect that the helicopter would remain in stable hover (with stick centered and AP trying to maintain zero bank), but in fact it wants to bank to the left. You can also see that the red diamond in controls indicator is not in the center (as it should be in hover when the stick is centered).

 

You can also try to press and hold the trimmer. I would expect that after centering the stick (while still holding the trimmer button) the helicopter would remain in stable hover, but it wants to bank to the right and some left stick (although less than before pressing the trimmer) is still required to keep it in the hover.

 

 

 

My explanation for this behavior

 

Total cyclic applied to the rotor consists of three parts: stick_position + trimmer_offset + AP_input

 

Pressing the trimmer button seems to only remove the stick offset, while the AP input is still there. So you have to trim again to remove that as well. And that is (IMHO) the reason for the difficult trimming.

 

The same is true for all controls (pitch, bank, yaw and even the collective). But pitch and bank are most easily observable.

 

 

 

Proposed solutions

 

a. The code that is executed when trimmer is pressed should also take into an account AP input:

 

new_trimmer_offset = old_trimmer_offset + stick_position + AP_input

 

b. Trimmer works as before (new_trimmer_offset = old_trimmer_offset + stick_position), but the AP_input is set to zero immediately after the trimmer button is pressed.

 

c. Make the AP actually move the cyclic stick in cockpit, not only affect the cyclic at the rotor. As a result, the AP input should be seen in controls indicator.

 

d. Something else - Developers that wrote the trimming code should probably know what can/should be done.

 

 

 

Some comments about the AP heading hold (HH)

 

Because AP is trying to maintain the heading by applying rudder input, it is inherently difficult to perform coordinated turns, or even point the helicopter accurately in the new direction while in hover.

 

I don't know, how things are implemented in real Ka-50, but I do know how HH is implemented in RC model helicopters. In RC world when the gyro is in HH mode, rudder input actually corresponds to the desired rotation speed around the vertical axis. I.e. the larger the rudder input, the faster the helicopter will rotate (constant rudder input, constant rotation speed). When the rudder input is released, the new heading is stored by the gyro and held.

 

Unless something similar is implemented in DSC for Ka-50, the only way to perform coordinated turns will be with the AP yaw channel off or trimming like hell, but that affects other AP channels as well, so the helicopter is again more difficult to control.

 

Personally, I would have three AP modes for rudder input: off, dampening and heading hold. I don't know, how this compares to the real Ka-50, but I don't have the real (non-centering) cyclic stick either.

 

 

 

I hope these observations will make the already great helicopter simulator even better.

 

Take care!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just hold the trimmer button down until you get into your coordinated turn, then you can release the trimmer button and it will stay in a corrdinated turn.

 

In your example of banking to the right then left...the problem there is that the AP is putting it's entire 20% authority into trying to keep you banked ot the right. When you enter that left bank without trimming, the AP has no authority to move the controls to the right at all, as it's already giving you max right input, therefore you stay in your left bank.

 

When you pres the trim button, you are telling the AP to "recenter" itself, or another way to say it is that pressing the trimmer button zeroes out any AP control inputs. Releasing the trimmer button tells the AP that you are in the attitude which you want held.

 

For the rudder, you sort of do have three modes. Off is off. On WITHOUT Flight Director mode is heading hold AND dampening, and on WITH Flight Director mode is just dampening.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you would have looked through the first 3 pages on this forum you would have found these:

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=35063

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=34824

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=35376

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=33812

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=34113

 

Work your way through them and do some trials, then pick what gives you the best control.

 

And oh, i recon you don't have a normal, non force feedback stick?

Win11 Pro 64-bit, Ryzen 5800X3D, Corsair H115i, Gigabyte X570S UD, EVGA 3080Ti XC3 Ultra 12GB, 64 GB DDR4 G.Skill 3600. Monitors: LG 27GL850-B27 2560x1440 + Samsung SyncMaster 2443 1920x1200, HOTAS: Warthog with Virpil WarBRD base, MFG Crosswind combat pedals, TrackIR4, Rift-S.

Personal Wish List: A6 Intruder, Vietnam theater, decent ATC module, better VR performance!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My explanation for this behavior

 

Total cyclic applied to the rotor consists of three parts: stick_position + trimmer_offset + AP_input

 

Pressing the trimmer button seems to only remove the stick offset, while the AP input is still there. So you have to trim again to remove that as well. And that is (IMHO) the reason for the difficult trimming.

 

The same is true for all controls (pitch, bank, yaw and even the collective). But pitch and bank are most easily observable.

 

You forget one thing and that is if you release the trimmer button and your stick is not centered within 0.5 of a second, the input from the stick out of that centerpoint will be added to the input you already had upon releasing the trimmer button. And it is this extra input + fighting against the extra AP input that makes the heli go nuts.

Win11 Pro 64-bit, Ryzen 5800X3D, Corsair H115i, Gigabyte X570S UD, EVGA 3080Ti XC3 Ultra 12GB, 64 GB DDR4 G.Skill 3600. Monitors: LG 27GL850-B27 2560x1440 + Samsung SyncMaster 2443 1920x1200, HOTAS: Warthog with Virpil WarBRD base, MFG Crosswind combat pedals, TrackIR4, Rift-S.

Personal Wish List: A6 Intruder, Vietnam theater, decent ATC module, better VR performance!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In your example of banking to the right then left...the problem there is that the AP is putting it's entire 20% authority into trying to keep you banked ot the right. When you enter that left bank without trimming, the AP has no authority to move the controls to the right at all, as it's already giving you max right input, therefore you stay in your left bank.

 

When you pres the trim button, you are telling the AP to "recenter" itself, or another way to say it is that pressing the trimmer button zeroes out any AP control inputs. Releasing the trimmer button tells the AP that you are in the attitude which you want held.

 

OK so here's the math in the above situation...

 

total_cyclic = 20% AP trying to bank right + 10% right trim, which I set before - 30% left stick = 0 and the helicopter is in stable hover (I keep the bank=0 by pushing the stick to the left)

 

Now... If I press and immediately release the trimmer and center the stick, I would expect that the new trim center would be 0 (red diamond in the middle). I have the total cyclic=0 and I want to keep it there. AP gets a new bank angle (0), which should make it's new input equal to 0 as well. When I center the stick the whole thing should hover hands-off.

 

But this is not the case in the sim. After trimming and centering the stick, the red diamond is somewhat to the left (my guess would be 20%, but I cannot measure that), which is the leftover of the AP bank input that was not canceled by the trim. And in order to cancel that, you have to trim again.

 

The same thing is true if you press and hold the trimmer. Using above inputs, the trimming process to make the helicopter hover hands-off (which is what we want) would look like this:

 

1. Apply 30% left cyclic to cancel 20% AP right + 10% trim offset. Make sure the helicopter is in stable hover and the bank=0.

 

2. Press and hold the trimmer button. This cancels the AP bank input of 20%, so now I have to fight only the trim offset: I have to ease the cyclic to 10% left to cancel the trim offset and keep the helicopter in stable hover (bank=0).

 

3. Release the trimmer button. The AP gets the new reference bank=0, so its input is 0 and when I release the stick the cyclic should return to zero as well.

 

Alternatively, you could do it with two quick trimmer button press/release, but you would still need to move stick for a very specific amount in between.

 

And this two step trimming is (IMHO) the reason why it is so difficult. It exists only in sim, because we use self centering sticks.

 

The whole trimming process would work, if the stick was centered before pressing the trimmer for the first time. Then you would just need to move the stick to new center, and release the trimmer to re-enable the AP. But keep in mind that the very reason I wanted to trim was because I had to keep pushing the stick to the left to keep the helicopter stable, so this never really happens in practice.

 

I'm sorry for another long post, but this thing is pretty difficult to explain and it's best to see this in action by experimenting.

 

NOTE: I can imagine that doing this two step trimming for a while, one can get used to it. I'm actually quite comfortable doing that, but I still believe that it could be done simpler.


Edited by ajd999
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think trimming in BS is accumulating stick/pedal position over previous trim(previous stick/pedal position)

 

and when trim input gets stronger than AP,

AP is fecked up by trim input.

so, thats why I press trim reset button before performing AP+trim especially when I want to perform stable hover hold.


Edited by verana_ss
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you have pushed you're cyclic 30% of its left travel, and you press and release the trim button, you new trim center is 30% to the left, not 0. There is no leftover AP input. When you press the trimmer button, the AP zeroes out its input, and keeps it zeroed until you let go of the button.

 

This is why I always press the trim button FIRST, THEN make my control movements, THEN release the trim button. This works perfectly well for me. Some say there is no need to trim this way, but I would suggest trying it this way and seeing what your results are.


Edited by AlphaOneSix
Link to comment
Share on other sites

To get the trimming to work with non-ffb joysticks as well as with ffb ones I'd prefer it to work like this.

 

warning this is not how the trim works - it's how I'd like it to for non-ffb controls

 

Have autopilot on

Move controls to achieve desired attitude

Hold trim button and release controls, release trim

Aircraft keeps attitude as if controls are still in position

 

If you are in a stable hover with aircraft trimmed, controls centered, and hit trim nothing should happen as the sticks should be locked in the position that was already stable.

 

I've resorted to programming my CH controllers to work this way and only using this hardware trim - it's much better than the native trimming in Black Shark. I've seen that some Cougar owners have programmed their sticks to work in a similar manner. The CH script and an explanation of how to use it with another profile is here.


Edited by scatter

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Virtual Australian Air Force

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...