Trimming the Ka-50

[Flash1606687761]

But the default trim setting is trimmed for take off. You need to trim it once you are airborne at the very least.

 

I honestly think it works well. Works even better now I have switch FF off which was doing odd things with my racing wheel!

[GGTharos]

Well ... you're ... doing it wronger? ;)

 

Anyway, whatever floats you boat, but turning off the AP channels is definitely not procedure - a little wind gust and you might be in dire straits :)

 

LOL, i know that i'm doing it wrong but releasing the stick to center itself is also wrong because a real Ka-50 pilot only releases his stick but does not center it. And that is exactly what you do if you don't have an FF-stick. Honestly, i only trim when i need to let go of the stick to free up my hands, works fine for me. And i don't have to deal with that twist in my brain of releasing a heavy Cougar that still slings around centerpoint after that 0,5 seconds delay...:music_whistling:

[uhoh7]

TY for new trimming vid--like alot of guys I've been holding the button down whenever I move the stick.

 

One thing I haven't seen in the notes---maybe I missed it, is a good explanation of using "free turbine to nominal" and how to get the various power settings e.g. cruise 1, cruise 2, take off, which are mentioned in the manual.

[redtail]

Thanks Wags for another great producer's note. I watched it, then went for a flight today and i must say...... I have much better control now. I think it's starting to click! One thing i did this time was not use the trimmer as much in turns as I used to. I was trimming every rudder & bank input before and it just wasn't pretty. But on my last flight I basically trimmed for pitch/speed changes and hovering and I am definately flying smoother.

 

QX9650 2gb, 8800GT, Vista64,Soundblaster X-Fi.

[RedTiger]

Yeah, that was a good producer's note. Maybe I should go back and watch the others now that I actually have the sim! :)

[Lange_666]

Anyway, whatever floats you boat, but turning off the AP channels is definitely not procedure - a little wind gust and you might be in dire straits :)

 

Then i might need to reconsider (no problme with that) but for now, i haven't encoutered much of a wind, let alone enemy's who are able to shoot back when i "try" to shoot at them... since i use a selfmade training mission with some duck targets...:smilewink:

[GGTharos]

The problem is that by the time you reconsider, you'll have developed bad piloting habits that you'll revert to every time you are stressed :)

[Grodin]

How does auto-hover work if flight director is on?

 

I find it too much to hassle with trimming every time i move when in combat so using flight director seems good..

[GGTharos]

I doesn't. FD takes autopilot influence away ... therefore anything 'auto' isn't when FD is on ;)

[Grodin]

I doesn't. FD takes autopilot influence away ... therefore anything 'auto' isn't when FD is on ;)

 

 

Hmm guess i'm going to try flying this thing having FD on all the time and just trim it for hover then...

 

It just seems too overwhelming to trim this thing every time i touch my controls while at same time moving my shkval TRYING to catch up that enemy chopper with it so i could shoot it down while manouvering around those buildings im using as cover while spamming my "reset being-lased warning" while spamming my flare button while.. while...

 

As if it wasnt hard enough without constant trimming ^^

[GGTharos]

Why are you chasing helicopters? Avoid them :P

If they decide to fly into your line of fire, its their problem.

You don't need to spam your flare button if you set up your CMD properly - quit trying to do everything yourself and let the automation do some of this stuff for you - that's the whole point ;)

[Grodin]

Why are you chasing helicopters? Avoid them :P

If they decide to fly into your line of fire, its their problem.

You don't need to spam your flare button if you set up your CMD properly - quit trying to do everything yourself and let the automation do some of this stuff for you - that's the whole point ;)

 

I chase helicopters because it's the only form of A-A combat this thing is capable of :( And even that seems quite tricky since shkval is not the best way to target moving things...

 

I'm having serious issues trying to keep myself together while waiting for F-15/F-16 :cry:

 

Only automation i want is trim and boresight targeting mode!

[GGTharos]

I chase helicopters because it's the only form of A-A combat this thing is capable of :( And even that seems quite tricky since shkval is not the best way to target moving things...

 

I have highlighted the error in your ways :D

The Ka-50 is NOT capable of A2A combat - yes, it can shoot down things that fly, but only as a seriously way back in the back of your head afterthought. You should consider doing A2A only when you MUST.

As a heli pilot you should be looking to avoid other flying things all together - of course, I realize it might be a source of fun for ya, so feel free to ignore me :)

 

I'm having serious issues trying to keep myself together while waiting for F-15/F-16 :cry:

 

Only automation i want is trim and boresight targeting mode!

 

Try the helmet. If you able to use the HMS steadily, you can lock up an airborne target with it. Check the manual.

[Lange_666]

Check the manual.

Not the best piece of information if you look for info imo. Looks beautiful on first look but not much logic in the paragraphs and although "everything" might be in it, finding the info and joining it together to an understandable chapter is still something else.

[GGTharos]

The manual gives an excellent description of the working details of the helmet sight.

 

Not only can you get to it by clicking on the appropriate chapter in the table of context, but the PDF is also searchable ;)

[EvilBivol-1]

Here are a couple of YouTube videos where you can see (and hear) the trimmer being used on the real Ka-50.

 

In the first video, you can see the pilot trim the helicopter with quick successions of pressing the trim button. He does this at 02:44, 04:29, 05:55 - 06:15, 06:29. Notice, he generally does not hold the trimmer button down while maneuvering, which is consistent with the feedback I've received from other people "in the know" regarding trimming the Ka-50 in real life. However, holding down the trim button is possible and can be practiced.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0kOfRaTsYs

 

In the second video, you can hear the trimmer being set. It's the "click-click" you hear every few seconds. Notice how the pilot trims the helicopter just before taking off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG1E1lgTsLw

 

 

P.S. Before anybody asks, that is an older version of the HUD display. You will also note the lack of the ABRIS in the first video.

Edited December 25, 2008 by EvilBivol-1

[IvanK]

Great videos. Interestingly the Attitude Indicator (AI) in the first video is of the western style with the AI sphere moving in both roll and pitch with the aircraft reference fixed.

 

The same with the HUD pitch reference markers. Perhaps this was a special hardware/software fit for demonstration to potential western customers used to the "conventional" horizon oriented attitude references.

 

Might be a nice option/mod ED :)

Edited December 25, 2008 by IvanK

[redtail]

That second video was awesome! Make me have an even greater appreciation for an awesome simulation we have in DCS Blackshark! Imagine when we have graphics and vehicles that are so true to life that it would be hard to tell we were in a sim.......... 10 years, 20. Just hope I'm around to see that day!

[Lange_666]

I even find myself turning off the AP channels for better respons.

You're doing it wrong.

 

 

PS: Ok. Hands up, I'm sure a bunch of you expect that response! :D

I must admit that you are correct...:music_whistling:

A few days ago i ran a little test to see the difference between easy and realistic flight mode so i turned easy mode on for one quick flight.

Then i went into the editor, loaded a self-created test mission in realistic mode, changed the realistic flight mode into easy and saved it under another name.

Then i did a few testruns and at the same time i changed my stick profile for the use onboard trimming, changed back to my testmissions which had realistic mode set and found the difference between using the game trim or programmed joystick trim so big that i sticked with the programmed joystick trim. BS copter never flew smoother.:D

 

Until yesterday. I was playing around a bit with the graphical setting when i noticed that easy mode was still ticked...:cry:

Even more, the "use this setting in all missions" was ticked too...:doh:

So i have been flying the last few days on easy mode (which is cool) instead of realistic mode so last night after this discovery i changed back to realistic mode and found out that i'm back to square one when it comes down to controlling the Ka-50...

 

The programmed joystick trim doesn't work well if you have a separate rudder since this isn't trimmed together with the stick in this case so either i need to find me rudderpedals which hook up via the gameport of the stick, find a way to join them together sticks software sees them as one, or go back to the old ingame trimming... for now it's the last one...grrr!!!

[ObvilionLost]

Figured out how trim works. But have a problem every time I launch a mission where you start with engine on, it seems I can't set new heading. Trim button just sets rudder trim, but never updates the heading for the autopilot.

[GGTharos]

Is one of your devices force-feedback? If so, that is why you are experiencing this problem. You need to turn FF off.

[ObvilionLost]

Is one of your devices force-feedback? If so, that is why you are experiencing this problem. You need to turn FF off.

 

Well i have no FF devices. Only devices i have connected is keyboard, mouse, and Saitek X52.

[GGTharos]

Do you have FD on?

[Reticuli]

For one thing... if you have forcefeedback off, trimming the helo to another control/orientation state should not allow any stick input between center and that trim point in the bank and pitch axiis. Forget yaw for a moment, since Heading Hold is just that: Heading Hold, with only functional damping rather than real yaw damping in Blackshark right now. Retrimming or toggling Heading Hold simply sets a new heading.

 

But in DCS, right now, turning off Bank Hold and Pitch Hold only turns off their respective axis dampening channels. It does not remove the Autopilot orientation hold states, which you can see still sloppily attempts to reorient. With Bank Hold, that is quite obvious to check for: you still level out with it off. Real helos do not do that, except under just tiny inputs or at very low speed.

 

In the Pitch Hold, this is less obvious, but if you pitch down far enough even at the highest collective, there should be a point where aerodynamic streamlining effects weathervane the airframe in that direction, without any pitching back up. That does not happen and is a discrepancy. Both Bank and Pitch should not be leveling back out (so completely in the case of pitch) when Bank Hold and Pitch Hold are off...unless you'd like to rename these two buttons "dampening" and claim the AP orientation modes in those two axiis cannot be turned off or are inextricably tied to the AP orientation state. ???

 

Other than that, I find it hard to believe the KA-50 has no separate axis damping system for all three axiis, even if the three hold buttons are off. That's pretty standard fair, but I've never flown this bird for real, so Kamov would be more likely to know that. If you're expected to have the three hold channels (or at least Bank & Pitch) on at all times to give functional damping without having real damping, then I don't understand why you'd ever give the pilot the option to turn them off.

 

To the trim system again, the stick should do nothing in bank & pitch until you get to the trim spot...like a big dead gap between the diamond and center. I'd also like to see a Dynamic Trim Update mode available in the options so if you don't have a forcefeedback stick, you can choose between manual trim or automated trim "capture" dynamically. All helicopters that do not use pole cyclics use that method as their primary flight control mode, with manual trim as a secondary mode. They do not use recentering procedures and added delayed-effects to get around the lack of the stick staying put. In fact, a side joystick with centering and Dynamic Trim Update is seen as an asset. Comanche, ADOCS Blackhawk, Dauphine Experimental, and latest prototype Apache & Chinook upgrades all use(d) this method. Don't be reinventing the wheel. The perfect elegant solution already exists.

 

I do like the sim a lot, though I think the key commands could have been named better along the lines of how F4AF did it. Very hard to find everything under a long list in the options menu. It's a bit troubling the bad weather/night TV sensor filters are not implimented, but perhaps that is classified? I’m amazed you can’t use the ARBIS for the autopilot with an ARBIS/PVI-800 source switch, but I might be missing something. Seems like a bit of a waste, but again, Kamov’s decision, not ED's and I'm still not totally through the monster manual. Naming the HUD autopilot manual mode "Flight Director" makes sense since it is coaching or directing you on the control inputs, but is really confusing to civilian pilots who may be used to that being the name of the navigational computer. The flight model is very good in spite of my above comments, approaching that of X-Plane's, which doesn’t even do certain types of helo stalls. My above remarks are meant to be constructive, so try not to take them too personally. This sim is a major achievement.

Edited December 29, 2008 by Reticuli

[Yo-Yo]

For one thing... if you have forcefeedback off, trimming the helo to another control/orientation state should not allow any stick input between center and that trim point in the bank and pitch axiis. Forget yaw for a moment, since Heading Hold is just that: Heading Hold, with only functional damping rather than real yaw damping in Blackshark right now. Retrimming or toggling Heading Hold simply sets a new heading.

 

If I understand you properly it means that the trimming procedure must be

1. Stabilize the helo by the stick input.

2. Push and release the trim button. After that NO STICK iNPUT is available UNTIL YOU RETURN THE STICK TO THE CENTRE (CENTRE ZONE). The new orientation is latched for autopilot.

3. The inputs are available after the stick is returned to the center.

 

If it's so - it's done for the patch and set as primary mode already.

 

I agree - this is much more accurate way to trim. Except the situation when you are in emergency trying to save the helicopter by attitude recovering .

If you try to recover bank you can press trim button intentially or not. An after that you will have to return the stick against the position your reflexes tell you to hold to recover... :).

 

 

 

 

 

But in DCS, right now, turning off Bank Hold and Pitch Hold only turns off their respective axis dampening channels. It does not remove the Autopilot orientation hold states, which you can see still sloppily attempts to reorient. With Bank Hold, that is quite obvious to check for: you still level out with it off. Real helos do not do that, except under just tiny inputs or at very low speed.

Your statement is not correct - the buttons fully disangage AP and center its actuators.

 

In the Pitch Hold, this is less obvious, but if you pitch down far enough even at the highest collective, there should be a point where aerodynamic streamlining effects weathervane the airframe in that direction, without any pitching back up. That does not happen and is a discrepancy. Both Bank and Pitch should not be leveling back out (so completely in the case of pitch) when Bank Hold and Pitch Hold are off...unless you'd like to rename these two buttons "dampening" and claim the AP orientation modes in those two axiis cannot be turned off or are inextricably tied to the AP orientation state. ???

Do you know where the mz vs AoA curve of the Ka-50 airframe intersects the AoA axis? :)

I.e. what is the airframe balance AoA ?

By the way you can easily get it from the DCS experiment. :)

 

 

Other than that, I find it hard to believe the KA-50 has no separate axis damping system for all three axiis, even if the three hold buttons are off. That's pretty standard fair, but I've never flown this bird for real, so Kamov would be more likely to know that. If you're expected to have the three hold channels (or at least Bank & Pitch) on at all times to give functional damping without having real damping, then I don't understand why you'd ever give the pilot the option to turn them off.

 

The faith is not a matter to discuss in technical discussion... :) Kamov's coaxial helos are quite stable W/O AP. The AP is not so vitally essential as for some other types of classic helos. ANd as you can see the standard modes for cannels are: OFF and ON. The damping mode can be switched on only for all working channels.

 

To the trim system again, the stick should do nothing in bank & pitch until you get to the trim spot...like a big dead gap between the diamond and center. I'd also like to see a Dynamic Trim Update mode available in the options so if you don't have a forcefeedback stick, you can choose between manual trim or automated trim "capture" dynamically. All helicopters that do not use pole cyclics use that method as their primary flight control mode, with manual trim as a secondary mode. They do not use recentering procedures and added delayed-effects to get around the lack of the stick staying put. In fact, a side joystick with centering and Dynamic Trim Update is seen as an asset. Comanche, ADOCS Blackhawk, Dauphine Experimental, and latest prototype Apache & Chinook upgrades all use(d) this method. Don't be reinventing the wheel. The perfect elegant solution already exists.

 

I think it is the same we have done.

 

I do like the sim a lot, though I think the key commands could have been named better along the lines of how F4AF did it. Very hard to find everything under a long list in the options menu. It's a bit troubling the bad weather/night TV sensor filters are not implimented, but perhaps that is classified? I’m amazed you can’t use the ARBIS for the autopilot with an ARBIS/PVI-800 source switch, but I might be missing something. Seems like a bit of a waste, but again, Kamov’s decision, not ED's and I'm still not totally through the monster manual. Naming the HUD autopilot manual mode "Flight Director" makes sense since it is coaching or directing you on the control inputs, but is really confusing to civilian pilots who may be used to that being the name of the navigational computer. The flight model is very good in spite of my above comments, approaching that of X-Plane's, which doesn’t even do certain types of helo stalls. My above remarks are meant to be constructive, so try not to take them too personally. This sim is a major achievement.

 

Thank you! I hope my answers will help :)

Edited December 29, 2008 by Yo-Yo