Trimming the Ka-50

[peterj]

You probably need to check swap axis under FF TUNE or you'll get opposite trim forces, neither setting should center the stick though.

[Vitesse2l]

My old gameport MS FFB gave that kick too. The stick has strong motors.

 

I have set the DCS feedback strength to 30, which works fine for me

 

Try the axis swap and see if that is the problem.

[Slayer]

Nice explanation. I already discovered that you need to trim a little forward or else you takeoff nose high.

 

I also found you need to trim as soon as you land or all sorts can happen once you are down!

 

I read somewhere to turn off the AP channels(cant remember the exact ones) for landing... try that

[GGTharos]

You do NOT turn off the AP channels. You can hold down trim or engage the flight director.

[Kula66]

A note on the AP/Trimming would be very helpful! The manual is rather brief on the subject only saying what the buttons do and given some of us don't understand Russian, the trainnig sessions are a mystery!

 

The button to the right of the 4 AP channels (the flight director) - what is the difference between the flight director and the AP?

 

Why is it that you can be flying along fairly happily and suddenly the KA seems to go wild, gyrating all over the place? Often going inverted or pointing straight down and usually crashing. This is usually associated with re-trimming. Any ideas? EDIT: Ok, forget this last bit, my Cougar has always had a faulty S4 button, which maps to trim and was firing off random trim commands all the time!!!!

Edited November 30, 2008 by Kula66

[Eichhorn666]

Thanks for this thread. :thumbup:

I didn't do much trimming till now, because of practising hovering and simple flight maneuvres.

I acknowledged, that I rather have a roll problem. When the bird flies faster than 150 kph it rolls to the right!

Is this normal? Guess I have to retrim there as well....

[Dr_Watson]

Seems to be. During level flight, my roll trim is set to the left to compensate and the rudder is to the right. Controls are all crossed! The idea of trimming so much just seems a bit strange considering that Kamov are trying to prove that it is possible for a single pilot to fly and fight in such a helicopter with being overloaded!

[Acedy]

I acknowledged, that I rather have a roll problem. When the bird flies faster than 150 kph it rolls to the right!

Is this normal? Guess I have to retrim there as well....

 

A single-rotor helicopter has a roll tendency at high speed because of dissymmetry of lift, which has to be countered by cyclic inputs. Generally speaking this problem of dissymmetry is canceled by the coaxial configuration, although not completely, as far as I understand it there is still a small roll momentum because of the rotor's separation on the mast, the upper, clockwise turning rotor has a greater leverage effect than the lower, counter-clockwise turning rotor, which would explain a slight tendency to roll to the right side.

Edited December 1, 2008 by Acedy

[EvilBivol-1]

Bearing in mind that many of your customers do not frequent these forums and so may miss much of this vital information (all of these thread on trimming for instance) would you consider adding content to the final Black Shark manual? I have found that much like the manual for LO:FC, BS's manual is a very technical document and could do with more in-practice/background content.

Some of the User FAQ items will be added to the release documentation. Any way you look at it however, a new simmer not already familiar with the Ka-50 and especially with helicopter flight in general, will need to do some learning in order to become effective. Hey, the real deal...

 

Having said that, ED and their assistants have poured in an enormous effort into documentation and localization. Truly, an entire development project all on its own.

Edited December 3, 2008 by EvilBivol-1

[igormk]

Regarding trimming, I'm not familiar with how trimmer is working on Ka-50, but I'm very familiar with the Mi-24, and I believe they both work the same way. It is true that during flight pilots have to use trim button all the time. It goes like this (on real helicopters): when you manouvre (change position of cyclick stick) you make series of short clicks on trimmer button till you reach desired position of the stick, and then in that position you press trimmer couple more times to neutralise any possable forces remained on the stick. The other way is to press-and-hold trimmer button, move your stick to desired position, release trimmer, and again press it couple more times to neutralise any possable remained forces.

Personaly I was wondering how ED will solve this problem in BS becouse on the real helicopter (I'm talking about Mi-24) with the use of trimmer button, you actualy change current neutral position of the cyclick, so depending on how you have trimmed, cyclick's current neutral position can be moved to all four directions (left, right, forward or backward) relative to, let's say, it’s normal neutral position. It is clear that (except maybe with force feedback joysticks) you can't do that, but I find it very acceptable that when, for example, you accelerate, and your cyclick is pushed forward, so you want to trim it in that position, you press the trim button (on real helicopter cyclick should stay in that position), and in next moment you just let the joystick to get back to it's neutral position - and the helicopter is trimmed to those precise parameters. But with any change of speed or power on the engines, you have to trim it again. And so you do it all the time.

On Mi-24 it is forbiden to use trimmer button only during combat manouvers because, if you try to trim with significant forces present on the cyclick, you risk getting your machine in undesirable position and crash.

Use of trimmer button is often frustrating thing, especially for young pilots, so it is normal (but wrong) that they try to fly the helicopter "manualy" (without use of trimmer), and belive me, no matter how strong you are, if you try to fly Mi-24 without use of trimmer button, your hand will start shaking very soon.

I would like to go back on problems with trim button affecting rudders. On Mi-24 trimmer button is not affecting rudder pedals. I find it wrong that on DCS BS trim is also neutralizing forces on rudders. It is normal that leg muscles are much stronger, and logically less sensitive to small forces than our hands. Therefore I’m having problems feeling where the neutral position on my pedals is. So I find it a bit disturbing that with the press on trim button, besides I have to move my joystick back to neutral, I also have to concentrate to move my pedals back to neutral. That is something that I usually I don’t succeed to do, at least not as precisely as I would like to. Result is always that my helicopter swings a bit to the other side. Therefore I think that it would be useful at least to have possibility to have option to turn off or on rudders from trimming function depending on user’s wish.

I hope that my reply was not too long. If it was please accept my apology.

[GGTharos]

Thanks for relaying your experience igormk! :)

[Prophet]

Regarding trimming, I'm not familiar with how trimmer is working on Ka-50, but I'm very familiar with the Mi-24, and I believe they both work the same way. It is true that during flight pilots have to use trim button all the time. It goes like this (on real helicopters): when you manouvre (change position of cyclick stick) you make series of short clicks on trimmer button till you reach desired position of the stick, and then in that position you press trimmer couple more times to neutralise any possable forces remained on the stick. The other way is to press-and-hold trimmer button, move your stick to desired position, release trimmer, and again press it couple more times to neutralise any possable remained forces.

Personaly I was wondering how ED will solve this problem in BS becouse on the real helicopter (I'm talking about Mi-24) with the use of trimmer button, you actualy change current neutral position of the cyclick, so depending on how you have trimmed, cyclick's current neutral position can be moved to all four directions (left, right, forward or backward) relative to, let's say, it’s normal neutral position. It is clear that (except maybe with force feedback joysticks) you can't do that, but I find it very acceptable that when, for example, you accelerate, and your cyclick is pushed forward, so you want to trim it in that position, you press the trim button (on real helicopter cyclick should stay in that position), and in next moment you just let the joystick to get back to it's neutral position - and the helicopter is trimmed to those precise parameters. But with any change of speed or power on the engines, you have to trim it again. And so you do it all the time.

On Mi-24 it is forbiden to use trimmer button only during combat manouvers because, if you try to trim with significant forces present on the cyclick, you risk getting your machine in undesirable position and crash.

Use of trimmer button is often frustrating thing, especially for young pilots, so it is normal (but wrong) that they try to fly the helicopter "manualy" (without use of trimmer), and belive me, no matter how strong you are, if you try to fly Mi-24 without use of trimmer button, your hand will start shaking very soon.

I would like to go back on problems with trim button affecting rudders. On Mi-24 trimmer button is not affecting rudder pedals. I find it wrong that on DCS BS trim is also neutralizing forces on rudders. It is normal that leg muscles are much stronger, and logically less sensitive to small forces than our hands. Therefore I’m having problems feeling where the neutral position on my pedals is. So I find it a bit disturbing that with the press on trim button, besides I have to move my joystick back to neutral, I also have to concentrate to move my pedals back to neutral. That is something that I usually I don’t succeed to do, at least not as precisely as I would like to. Result is always that my helicopter swings a bit to the other side. Therefore I think that it would be useful at least to have possibility to have option to turn off or on rudders from trimming function depending on user’s wish.

I hope that my reply was not too long. If it was please accept my apology.

 

I would reason that the rudder is trimmed because of the dual axial rotors.

[AlphaOneSix]

On Mi-24 trimmer button is not affecting rudder pedals.

 

I would have thought that the autopilot and trim would be almost exactly the same between the Mi-24 and the Mi-17, but the Mi-17 trim most definitely affects the rudder pedals.

[ZaltysZ]

Now the trimmer works in such way:

On press: does nothing;

While pressed: does nothing;

On release: sets new neutral virtual position while giving small amount of time to return to physical center;

 

Right? Or my X52 is behaving wrongly?

 

I can't say that I like such trimming method much, because in case of big change in trimmed position and delayed return to true (physical) center, there is possibility of violent movement (for example: after cyclic forward, trim release, delayed return to physical center, Ka-50 will pitch down even more and can be broken that way). I know that allowed delay can be adjusted in lua script, however this can give strange results with tracks recorded with different (default) delay and also big delay can waste a lot of time for small changes of trimmed position.

 

I think such scheme would work better:

On press: assign (but don't activate) current virtual control possitions as neutral ones;

While pressed: ignore any inputs on controls (cyclic, rudder);

On release: activate assigned (in event "On press") neutral possitions;

 

Basicaly, you move controls where you want, press and hold trimmer button, move controls controls to center position without effecting aircraft, release trimmer button to regain control. No more uintented movements. What do you think?

Edited December 6, 2008 by ZaltysZ

[slug88]

Now the trimmer works in such way:

On press: does nothing;

While pressed: does nothing;

On release: sets new neutral virtual position while giving small amount of time to return to physical center;

 

Right? Or my X52 is behaving wrongly?

 

I can't say that I like such trimming method much, because in case of big change in trimmed position and delayed return to true (physical) center, there is possibility of violent movement (for example: after cyclic forward, trim release, delayed return to physical center, Ka-50 will pitch down even more and can be broken that way). I know that allowed delay can be adjusted in lua script, however this can give strange results with tracks recorded with different (default) delay and also big delay can waste a lot of time for small changes of trimmed position.

 

I think such scheme would work better:

On press: assign (but don't activate) current virtual control possitions as neutral ones;

While pressed: ignore any inputs on controls (cyclic, rudder);

On release: activate assigned (in event "On press") neutral possitions;

 

Basicaly, you move controls where you want, press and hold trimmer button, move controls controls to center position without effecting aircraft, release trimmer button to regain control. No more uintented movements. What do you think?

 

I think this is an excellent scheme for trimming with non-FFB sticks. Though it no longer works like the real thing, this method would improve controllability a lot, and ultimately lead to more realistic flying behavior.

[Gary]

Although not strickly trim related (well it is really I suppose) I was wondering if anyone could recommend a decent FF controller for BS?

 

I currently use x45 (old I know) and like the various hats and buttons

 

I dont want to spend a fortune so it will be a matter of cost and functionality for me

 

Regards,

 

Gary

[AlphaOneSix]

I don't have one, but from what I have seen/heard/read, the consensus is that your best bet is a Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2

[Gary]

Cheers,

 

Just had a quick look...Price is £90 so looks like a good option...

 

Thanks

 

Regards,

 

Gary

[Maverick-GER-]

Now the trimmer works in such way:

I can't say that I like such trimming method much, because in case of big change in trimmed position and delayed return to true (physical) center, there is possibility of violent movement (for example: after cyclic forward, trim release, delayed return to physical center, Ka-50 will pitch down even more and can be broken that way).

 

Hmm i dont know i have not a bit of a problem with how the trimming works right now. I press and hold the trimmer, move stick and after i got the helicopter stabilized to the way i wanna fly, i release the trim and move joystick back to center...

When it gets a bit more hectical i also use the "hammer on the trimmer" way of trimming and still dont have any problems with violent movement...

I think i would rather have problems with the solution you posted... maybe it is just a matter of getting used to.

btw. i didnt change any files or anything i just use a TM Hotas Cougar and i use button S4 for trimming

[igormk]

I would have thought that the autopilot and trim would be almost exactly the same between the Mi-24 and the Mi-17, but the Mi-17 trim most definitely affects the rudder pedals.

Well done AlphaOneSix!

First I was a bit confused by your reply because I also thought that Mi-17 and Mi-24 are having the same way of trimming. Then I consulted some Mi-17 experts, and they confirmed that you are right – trim button on cyclic stick affect rudders on Mi-17. Maybe it works the same way on Ka-50, but anyway, I still think that it would be better if in DCS BS trim button would not affect rudders, don’t you think so?

Also, the autopilot is different on both types (Mi-17 and Mi-24).

Anyway I am impressed by your knowledge about Mi-17.

[GGTharos]

Then ED would be modeling unrealistic system behavior ... and I don't think it's that big a deal personally - of course your mileage may vary.

[igormk]

Then ED would be modeling unrealistic system behavior ... and I don't think it's that big a deal personally - of course your mileage may vary.

If that's the way it works on Ka-50, then OK. And you are right, first of all I respect ED's policy to recreate fully identical systems with those on real helicopters. :thumbup:

After all - it is not a big deal, and I am sure I will get just to it soon.

[AlphaOneSix]

I still think that it would be better if in DCS BS trim button would not affect rudders, don’t you think so?

 

Yeah, I do think so, to be honest. I think the idea is that you can take your feet off of the pedals during cruise flight, but all of our pilots keep their feet on the pedals all the time anyway.

 

Anyway I am impressed by your knowledge about Mi-17.

 

I appreciate your compliment. I have been an Mi-17 mechanic/crew chief for the last couple of years, though, so that helps. :D

[RSWedge]

Trim ?

 

Last night I was trying to set my trim button on my TM Cougar Throttle (BTN T9). While trying to do this I noticed that there were some other trim functions with in the sim. I automatically assumed that the trim command I needed was called "Trimmer Button" which is mapped to Left SHF Left CTL T.

 

I was just reading through the key command pdf file that is stickied at the top of this page that there is only one trim key and that is "T".

 

It looks like I have some remapping to do? Currently I do not have access BS to double check.

 

Can anyone clarify what I need to map to my HOTAS for trimming the Ka-50 Black Shark?

[Brute]

AFAIK there are only two commands you need to use to trim the helo: T for cyclic and F for collective.