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In game checklist


upyr1

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34 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

They are required to memorize them so I suspect some method of study is required

While I'm in agreement with active learning in general, checklists are the exemption. Pilots do learn them, by heart - eventually. But the idea of a checklist is to use the list; to NOT recite it from memory. Of course pilots, being humans, will - after a short while and after sufficient repetition - skip holding it in hand for minor stuff (say final approach). But checklists are designed to be held in hand and read, every single line, every time. Out loud if possible. With your crew doing the checking optimally. 

That's why I'd love a separate checklist functionality for all modules, and of course for the developer to provide the various lists: Start-up, shut down, pre-flight, post-flight, taxi, run-up, departure, fencing in/out, after landing, approach, final, emergency, whatever. I'd love to have them in DCS, for each and every module. 


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5 minutes ago, cfrag said:

While I'm in agreement with active learning in general, checklists are the exemption.

Well to memorize the checklist, that’s exactly what I would do or did. Write it down. Over and over again. That’s what I would have done in school or to the extent I need to study anything anymore. Write it a dozen times and you’ll memorize it for certain. Passively reading a list just goes in one ear and out the other. And this is a game, I doubt many people use checklists. Heck 75% of the players just press the start cheat keys. Go figure why the devs don’t figure that it’s worthwhile to put checklists in the manuals. 

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Would the armed forces trust any pilot to use mere memory for a multi-million dollar jet?  I would think that check list are mandatory. I am in complete agreement with cfrag. Hopefully, one day, we will have check list for all jets, with section tabs.


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12 minutes ago, williehayesjr said:

Would the arm forces trust any pilot to use mere memory for a multi-million dollar jet?  I would think that check list are mandatory. I am in complete agreement with cfrag. Hopefully, one day, we will have check list for all jets, with section tabs.

Sure obviously they have checklists and use them. All pilots do. But their training requires them to memorize the lists. Like a Hornet pilot trainee is required to do the 150 point preflight check by memory in a given time. Every flight. 
In the basic Maple Flag A-10 course, you have 30 seconds to do the full shutdown after every flight. Including missions like nighttime AAR. Miss one item and you fail the mission. 😁 So if you’re thumbing through a list and don’t have it memorized, you won’t make it. 

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5 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

If you’ve been around DCS long enough you’ll realize anything a Dev does will actually take a very long time to accomplish.

Lmao no. That's just some weird prejudice you have against developers.

Devs can do things very quickly — quicker than most — because they have the tools and the assets and the know-how to do so. No matter how busy they are, quick things are still quick. You're confusing prioritisation with difficulty and effort. If you've been around any kind of software long enough, you realise that if need be, something can be added and rolled out in a matter of hours or even minutes. This is just you making bad-faith non-arguments from a position of complete ignorance.

5 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

The problem with adding so much to the kneeboard is that you can only scroll through it one page at a time. It doesn’t have tabs or sections.

You should probably play the game before making these kinds of statements. Jeez. Again, you're making up absolute nonsense from a position of ignorance.

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

What’s funny about checklists is not all the aircraft even have them

…from a position of complete ignorance…

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Obviously the real aircraft do. In DCS actually quite a few don’t. See again nothing is easy.

They all do. Getting them in-game is absolutely trivial and can be done in minutes with the right tools. Now, in spite of your strong preference for using ignorance as a basis for your 100% being-wrong-rate, would you like to venture a guess as to who might have the right tools at hand…?

  

29 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Sure obviously they have checklists and use them. All pilots do. But their training requires them to memorize the lists.

No. That's the very reasons why the checklists exist: because you cannot trust memory. You're operating on a logic that (just barely) held true before casual flight was a thing, over a hundred years ago. We have moved on and learned a lot since then so the situation is the exact opposite of the one you're assuming. They have checklists and they use them. Their training requires them to use them. They may eventually memorise parts but memory is useless and untrustworthy and gets people killed, so you use the checklist.


Edited by Tippis
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31 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

But their training requires them to memorize the lists. Like a Hornet pilot trainee is required to do the 150 point preflight check by memory in a given time. Every flight. 
In the basic Maple Flag A-10 course, you have 30 seconds to do the full shutdown after every flight. Including missions like nighttime AAR. Miss one item and you fail the mission. 😁 So if you’re thumbing through a list and don’t have it memorized, you won’t make it. 

Forgive me, but that sounds wrong. Doing a checklist from memory pretty much defeats the purpose of such a list - they are made to be followed item by item, especially in stressful situations, and to ensure that you don't rely on memory, even when time is of the essence. Now, I'm not a military aviator, and I'll gladly be corrected if someone with that kind of expertise can chime in; in civil aviation I was never made to pass such a test, it was never a requirement on any of my certifications, and I doubt that any of my instructors would even welcome such an idea, not even as a game (perhaps if it's a drinking game). It seems to me that the course element that you refer to simply is a game element that has nothing to do with reality. What is the objective of a timed 30s shut-down after a completed mission? Best case is you don't make a mistake. Worst case is you shut your aircraft  down wrongly, having it settle in an undefined state. To save a few seconds before your 2 hour debrief? That seems very, very wrong to me.


Edited by cfrag
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17 minutes ago, cfrag said:

Forgive me, but that sounds wrong. Doing a checklist from memory pretty much defeats the purpose of such a list

I saw that in a show about Canadian Hornet pilots, I’ll have to see if I can find a link, it’s really good. Heck they dock points from the trainees for not making popcorn every day too. 
Maple Flag supposedly mimics the USAF course and has startup and shutdown test missions. Are these realistic? Don’t know. But they’re fun and useful. After that campaign you won’t need checklists anymore 😉


Edited by SharpeXB

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2 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

After that campaign you won’t need checklists anymore 😉

Yes you do. That's why they exist.

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1 hour ago, cfrag said:

Forgive me, but that sounds wrong. Doing a checklist from memory pretty much defeats the purpose of such a list - they are made to be followed item by item, especially in stressful situations, and to ensure that you don't rely on memory, even when time is of the essence. Now, I'm not a military aviator, and I'll gladly be corrected if someone with that kind of expertise can chime in; in civil aviation I was never made to pass such a test, it was never a requirement on any of my certifications, and I doubt that any of my instructors would even welcome such an idea, not even as a game (perhaps if it's a drinking game). It seems to me that the course element that you refer to simply is a game element that has nothing to do with reality. What is the objective of a timed 30s shut-down after a completed mission? Best case is you don't make a mistake. Worst case is you shut your aircraft  down wrongly, having it settle in an undefined state. To save a few seconds before your 2 hour debrief? That seems very, very wrong to me.

I'm not a military aviator either but I can tell you want  Ward "Mooch" Carroll a military aviator who spent a bit of time in both seats of the F-14 said on the subject while he was a guest on the air combat sim pod cast. 

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/air-combat-sim-podcast-episode-24-ward-mooch-carroll/id1498316156?i=1000546577040

He said they always use check lists and the only people who even try to start a fighter from memory are DCS players. In fact this interview is what prompted the question. You are not wrong. I really suggest more people should put this ironically named sharp fellow on ignore. This is the same troll who was claiming that misison planning was done in the cockpit in this thread

 


Edited by upyr1
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37 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

He said they always use check lists and the only people who even try to start a fighter from memory are DCS players.

You misunderstand what I said. What I saw was them having to memorize the checklist in training. Not doing that in actual operations.
Here’s the show, check it out  

And DCS is a game so it’s fully possible to start up the aircraft from memory as there are no real world consequences involved. Yes we are DCS players after all, sorry to break the news…

 

 


Edited by SharpeXB

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1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

You misunderstand what I said.

No. You just said something silly based on uninformed assumptions with absolutely nothing to back it up, and now you're trying to save it so you can continue your pointless trolling of yet another wishlist thread so make sure that DCS does not ever get any better.

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

What I saw was them having to memorize the checklist in training.

That is not what you actually said, and you're going to have come up with a better reference if you want to support your statement. More to the point, what you need to memorise in training to pass a test is of absolutely no relevance to the topic at hand. It's just a worthless red herring you're throwing in there because you don't want to see a very natural, sensible, and realistic part of flying be added to the game for some wholly incomprehensible reason.

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

And DCS is a game

…and yet, you commonly appeal to absolute realism to try to argue that other improvements to the game are not made. You need to make up your mind.

 

You haven't offered a single valid, coherent, truthful, or even remotely intelligent argument or statement in favour of your desire that the game should not be improved the way the OP suggests. Try making one and maybe you won't end up ruining your own position over and over again by showing how untenable it is.


Edited by Tippis

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Perhaps I can offer a face saving off ramp for Mr. SharpeXB. Maybe pilots are requied to thoroughly familiarize themselves with checklists, maybe in case of emergencies, where time is of the essence. However, checklist, if not, should be mandatory for all present day pilots. Could you imagine, while on a trip to New Orleans, your Boing 747 pilot telling you "I don't really need these checklists." What would you tell him/her? Remember, no obsenities.


Edited by williehayesjr
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1 hour ago, Tippis said:

No. You just said something silly based on uninformed assumptions with absolutely nothing to back it up, and now you're trying to save it so you can continue your pointless trolling of yet another wishlist thread so make sure that DCS does not ever get any better.

That is not what you actually said, and you're going to have come up with a better reference if you want to support your statement. More to the point, what you need to memorise in training to pass a test is of absolutely no relevance to the topic at hand. It's just a worthless red herring you're throwing in there because you don't want to see a very natural, sensible, and realistic part of flying be added to the game for some wholly incomprehensible reason.

…and yet, you commonly appeal to absolute realism to try to argue that other improvements to the game are not made. You need to make up your mind.

 

You haven't offered a single valid, coherent, truthful, or even remotely intelligent argument or statement in favour of your desire that the game should not be improved the way the OP suggests. Try making one and maybe you won't end up ruining your own position over and over again by showing how untenable it is.

 

I really thinkg more people should put SharpCB on their ignore list. He really doesn't contribute much to the dicussion. I don't think you should agree with everything on the wish list, but at least be intelligent about it. The argument from realism says use a checklist as that is what is done operationally and the its a game argument IMHO says check list with the option for auto-start. 

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13 minutes ago, williehayesjr said:

Perhaps I can offer a face saving off ramp for Mr. SharpeXB. Maybe pilots are requied to thoroughly familiarize themselves with checklists, maybe in case of emergencies, where time is of the essence. However, checklist, if not, should be mandatory for all present day pilots. Could you imagine, while on a trip to the New Orleans, your Boing 747 pilot telling you "I don't really need these checklists." What would you tell him/her? Remember, no obsenities.

It looked like his argument was based on the fact some military pilots have to memorize their checklist during training. I fully accept there are things you do in training that you wouldn't do operationally. For example pilots training for IFR will wear a hood so they can't look outside. A blind start with out a checklist might be a good taining mission, but that's not how things are done operationally. SharpBX is just a bored troll who really doesn't have much to offer

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9 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Veering off topic but using a checklist in a passive way is not the best way to learn something. Engage in something active like making your own checklist. Doing something active is a better way to learn and memorize things than just reading it passively. Plus you can probably make a better more concise list for yourself. Then after doing that you use the same cockpit flow every time and memorize the process very quickly. Then you don’t need the checklist anymore. 

While I agree that one would eventually memorize the process of their favorite aircraft that they have flown the most. Having a check list would actually be very helpful to have for the other aircraft that are rarely flown. Everyone has those aircraft that they own that they don't fly as often. I would probably fly them a little more often with a ready to go checklist as I would not have to take the time to look up everything again.

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I agree checklist would be a nice thing to have and probably should be a standard thing for each airframe in DCS. I also know there are cool dudes out there who make them and put them on the user download page on the DCS website. Sydy, Minky7 and hd27_v all make decent kneeboard checklists. 

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1 hour ago, williehayesjr said:

Perhaps I can offer a face saving off ramp for Mr. SharpeXB. Maybe pilots are requied to thoroughly familiarize themselves with checklists, maybe in case of emergencies, where time is of the essence. However, checklist, if not, should be mandatory for all present day pilots. Could you imagine, while on a trip to the New Orleans, your Boing 747 pilot telling you "I don't really need these checklists." What would you tell him/her? Remember, no obsenities.

We can all relax. Real pilots use checklists. I’m not a real pilot but I watch them on YouTube 😉

44 minutes ago, Evoman said:

Having a check list would actually be very helpful to have for the other aircraft that are rarely flown.

Well certainly they would. So I was wrong earlier when I said the manuals have checklists. Most actually don’t. But it’s easy to make your own and a good way to learn. 


Edited by SharpeXB

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6 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

We can all relax.

Sure. You already fully endorsed the OP, after all, before you then tried to argue that it shouldn't happen anyway because… no real reason. Just more trolling, I suppose.

6 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

So I was wrong earlier when I said the manuals have checklists. Most actually don’t.

Most actually do. You just don't have enough of a valid sample, by your own admission. The ones who don't will have or they already have it in different forms (including in-game).

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Hi, folks!
A bit off-topic, but it's just struck me it could be pretty easy to have "automatic tabs" in the kneeboards, so that when you put in a bunch of your own pages (your own checklists, the girlfriend's photo or whatever), they will be automatically "tabbed" according to your own liking. And it wouldn't mess up the kneeboards we currently have!
(I know I'm wasting time, it's not gonna happen, but still...)

Here's the "patent" (you may come up with a few similar ones serving the same purpose):
1. File names in a kneeboard folder have typical structure FILENAME.EXT
2. DCS sorts all the pages by their file names, just as it does now.
3. For each page whose file name's last character (in the FILENAME part) is the underscore, DCS automatically puts in the kneeboard a coloured tab linking to this page.

Example:

Spoiler

Operation_Persian_Freedom_Mission_01_Briefing_Page_01_.png
Operation_Persian_Freedom_Mission_01_Briefing_Page_02.png
Operation_Persian_Freedom_Mission_01_Briefing_Page_03.png
etc.

The first one gets an automatic tab in the kneeboard.

No need to manually add tabs from scratch at the beginning of each mission! If you want you may still add new tabs when sitting in the cockpit, but you may also have automatic tabs created for you at the mission start, say: airfiled charts, aircraft checklists, mission briefing pages (named with an underscore by the mission's author). How about that?

It would also be nice to have a standarized system whereby you are allowed to put your own things into the "kneeboard" folder in <Saved Games>/DCS/..., for a particular module or a map, whereas DCS updates would only touch kneeboard folders in <DCS install dir>/Mods/etc. DCS would then add up the kneeboard contents from all these folders.
I think it kind of works now for some modules or maps, or it used to work, can't remember clearly, but I would be cool if they made it a standard feature in DCS.

As for the philosophical dispute... personally I make my checklists "actively" (pen and paper), for the reasons SharpeXB pointed out above, but mostly because I just like it this way. Sometimes I download checklists or guides (e.g. Viggen) from "User Files".
I think it's a valid and sober claim that kneeboard checklists be a standard part of a module, but I'm also afraid they'll be treated lightly by the forever-on-the-rush developers, so... I don't know. Maybe it's better to have control over what's there? I'm on the fence.
Anyway, YMMV, it's just a personal opinion.

 


Edited by scoobie
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In my view it would be a nice to have but is extremely well served by the community.

There are loads kneeboard friendly checklists in the Downloads- User Files section of the DCS website. My personal favourites are those by Sydy:

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/filter/type-is-document/user-is-sydy/apply/

That said I have taken to creating my own from the excellent Chuck's Guides. I call them ChuckLists 🙂

The main reason for that is the process of creating them is more beneficial to me in learning them. Just like taking notes from a lecturer or text book as @SharpeXB points out. Plus it gives me complete control of formatting for using a kneeboard in VR.

Also for VR users. VRK allows for tabbed and bookmarked entries. I don't know if there is something similar for 2D?

Personally I find Chuck's Guides so much more accessible than the dev provided documentation that I would probably continue to create checklists that I understand  so I am happy to leave the checklist stuff to the community and let the devs focus on what I think they do best! Sure, ideally everything should be provided but DCS isn't really a jump in and do everything kind of sim and has an excellent enthusiast community to fill in the gaps IMHO

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1 hour ago, scoobie said:

For each page whose file name's last character (in the FILENAME part) is the underscore, DCS automatically puts in the kneeboard a coloured tab linking to this page

While this may work, it's a roundabout way of creating kneeboards. What I would like to see is a 'Kneeboard Editor', similar to the Mission editor's Briefing Editor: It starts with the mission default set, you can add and remove pages as images in any the order you want, maybe even drag to change their order. VERY Basic. Perhaps even place tabs. The result should be the kneeboard that is loaded for your mission.

Provide a separate but similar 'Checklist' app so people can create/edit their own aircraft-specific checklists.


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48 minutes ago, cfrag said:

it's a roundabout way of creating kneeboards

It is! I was thinking about something quick and dirty, because... sometimes I have the impression that only quick and dirty "non-core features" stand a chance to crawl into DCS. Maybe I'm being unfair, no rant intended, really 🙂
Sure, a human-friendly editor sounds awesome.

 

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Well I don’t see any elaborate written checklist being used here. The kneeboard in this video doesn’t have a checklist on it and the list on the DDI isn’t an amplified list, it’s just the basics. I do see this guy starting up as quickly as possible using both hands. It’s not like watching this procedure in a civilian airliner or something. So when I play Walter Mitty fighter pilot my goal is to be like this 😉

https://youtu.be/yeij-YX9MdY


Edited by SharpeXB

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36 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Well I don’t see any elaborate written checklist being used here.

Yes you do. You're just not informed enough to understand it.

Not that this laughably pathetic attempt at a strawman is in any way, shape, or form relevant to the topic at hand anyway (but then, that's the inherent nature of strawmen and why you must so desperately cling to them as your only hope of even remotely being able to make it seem like you have anything cogent or worth-while to say).

36 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

The kneeboard doesn’t have a checklist on it

Prove it. (Or… you know, just admit that you can't because, well, you can't — you just made that up.)

36 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

the list on the DDI isn’t an amplified list

Irrelevant.

So what's even your point here? What on earth are you even blathering about as far as the topic here? You have read the OP and understood the topic of the thread, right? Or are you just doing your usual off-topic spam trolling in the vain hope that DCS never evolves?

No, really. What on earth was the point of your post?


Edited by Tippis
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On 5/25/2022 at 7:15 AM, cfrag said:

While this may work, it's a roundabout way of creating kneeboards. What I would like to see is a 'Kneeboard Editor', similar to the Mission editor's Briefing Editor: It starts with the mission default set, you can add and remove pages as images in any the order you want, maybe even drag to change their order. VERY Basic. Perhaps even place tabs. The result should be the kneeboard that is loaded for your mission.

Provide a separate but similar 'Checklist' app so people can create/edit their own aircraft-specific checklists.

 

That would be cool but the default should at least have a start up check list

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