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Afterburner - what are the indications you are at the end of Mil and going to AB?


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HI, I am trying to set up my new winwing throttle and am having trouble figuring out when exactly in the sim, the AB kicks in....given there are several indications, these being the visual condition of teh engine , nozzle position, fuel flow and RPM percentage.....

I would expect that to get it working " Properly" we need a way to get it to match the in jet RPM percentage and nozzle positions?

Does anyone know what the "correct" figures are for nozzle position, fuel flow and RPM percentage when AB kicks in ? And does the sim accurately portray this?

From looking at in the sim, my current max throttle opening shows nozzle position 45, fuel flow of 68,000 lbs and RPM percentage of 102%.

My other question is how can know when AB kicks in from looking visually? Of course, you get the cone effect, but looking directly into the engine, there is certainly a period of time before this happens when the engine is bright red inside. This happens at Nozzle 10%, fuel 18,000 and RPM 102%. Is this the true start of AB? Obviously, I cant set it correctly unless I know when AB is kicking in in the sim......

The other way to judge would be maybe to look at where DCS have marked AB in the controls position indicator widget? If I use this, fule flow is approx 12,000, nozzles zero & RPM 102%. ( It never seems to go beyond 102% though....) 

 

So which is the correct way? Thanks


Edited by markturner1960

System specs: PC1 :Scan 3XS Ryzen 5900X, 64GB Corsair veng DDR4 3600, EVGA GTX 3090 Win 10, Quest Pro, Samsung Odyssey G9 Neo monitor. Tir5. PC2 ( Helo) Scan 3XS Intel 9900 K, 32 GB Ram, 2080Ti, 50 inch Phillips monitor

 F/A-18C: Rhino FFB base TianHang F16 grip, Winwing MP 1, F-18 throttle, TO & Combat panels, MFG crosswind & DFB Aces  seat :cool:                       

Viper: WinWing MFSSB base with F-16 grip, Winwing F-16 throttle, plus Vipergear ICP. MFG crosswind rudders. 

Helo ( Apache) set up: Virpil collective with AH64D grip, Cyclic : Virpil CM3 base & TM F18 grip, MFG crosswind rudders, Total controls AH64 MFD's,  TEDAC Unit. 

 

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Don't look at the numbers since they may change with altitude.  Instead go to external view (active pause on) and look for the fire glow in the engine; that's the beginning of afterburner.  I have my throttle set up (not wingwing but the principles are the same) to where afterburner kicks in right after I push past my detent.  This corresponds to the sound of the in cockpit detent being pushed through.  Note that you may have to select user defined when adjusting your throttle axis in DCS and tweak it to get it exactly where you want it.

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19 minutes ago, markturner1960 said:

HI, I am trying to set up my new winwing throttle and am having trouble figuring out when exactly in the sim, the AB kicks in....given there are several indications, these being the visual condition of teh engine , nozzle position, fuel flow and RPM percentage.....

I would expect that to get it working " Properly" we need a way to get it to match the in jet RPM percentage and nozzle positions?

Does anyone know what the "correct" figures are for nozzle position, fuel flow and RPM percentage when AB kicks in ? And does the sim accurately portray this?

Those figures tell you nothing....  those are altitude, weight and speed depended, hell, there is even a difference between a GE and a P&W engine as far as indicators goes. The real throttle has a physical detent, which you need to bypass by lifting the throttle handle and pushing it passed the detent. 

 

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Use either the axis indicator (R Ctrl Enter I think) or when the throttle in the cockpit clicks and lifts over the detent. These are consistent indicators. The next best is fuel flow as it will jump when AB turns on, but the numbers will change based on a number of factors.

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You can't really, not with a hair thin precision. Fuel flow varies continuously, obviously steeper though. Nozzle will begin to open.

For setting up a controller, I would use the throttle handle animation. I think it's set to a nice round number in DCS like 80%, 85%, or 90%.

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I think 🤔 I’ve seen that somewhere. Now where was that?  In an old 1990’s sim I think 😆

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Redkites guide is very useful, however, I am not seeing what he sees ....for example, ataround 2.15 into his guide, when he has moved his throttle to the physical detent position, in my options screen, when I do that, both squares move down to bottom left most point of the graph, whereas in his, they move to the right of the line approx another 10% ..... see screen grab
d15d667d57a09e345a8de8affae71a5e.jpg

I have this before, which is as he shows:
9b3e6595f5cb3461090e73156807ca73.jpg

And this is where my throttle is at max mil power:
70557e91a8530af3b80a2d2f8ac3391f.jpg

I place the throttle to the detent and this happens:

e5d410f369efedccbdb15a75fc5f7823.jpg

So what’s going on there?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

System specs: PC1 :Scan 3XS Ryzen 5900X, 64GB Corsair veng DDR4 3600, EVGA GTX 3090 Win 10, Quest Pro, Samsung Odyssey G9 Neo monitor. Tir5. PC2 ( Helo) Scan 3XS Intel 9900 K, 32 GB Ram, 2080Ti, 50 inch Phillips monitor

 F/A-18C: Rhino FFB base TianHang F16 grip, Winwing MP 1, F-18 throttle, TO & Combat panels, MFG crosswind & DFB Aces  seat :cool:                       

Viper: WinWing MFSSB base with F-16 grip, Winwing F-16 throttle, plus Vipergear ICP. MFG crosswind rudders. 

Helo ( Apache) set up: Virpil collective with AH64D grip, Cyclic : Virpil CM3 base & TM F18 grip, MFG crosswind rudders, Total controls AH64 MFD's,  TEDAC Unit. 

 

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I am Virpil CM3 user and I found all the guides for user curve not that helpful. 

Try what I did and maybe it will work for you. 

Viper special options, afterburner detent set to always off.

I started with initial -10 curvature instead of User Curve. Jump to the cockpit and use RCTRL+ENTER controls indicator, I moved throttle to the detent and look at the indicator thrust position. OK, almost, I went quickly to adjust controls and set my curvature to -11. Bang on. Perfect match.

Just go, compare physical location of throttle vs. its simulated position using controls indicator AND visual throttle shifting up, and adjust negative curvature until you get the perfect match. 

Not guaranteed for WW throttle but works for at least two CM3 throttles I know of 😉
 

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I just mapped the afterburner to another button on my Hotas.  It means that I have to press the button before pushing forward the throttle to engage the ABs, but can click once to disengage.

I have no idea how accurate that is, but works for me

System: 9700, 64GB DDR4, 2070S, NVME2, Rift S, Jetseat, Thrustmaster F18 grip, VPC T50 stick base and throttle, CH Throttle, MFG crosswinds, custom button box, Logitech G502 and Marble mouse.

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OK< thanks, I have run out of time to do this as now wont be back at my sim PC until next week, as going away for a small trip.......will see how I get on then. Thanks for the advice.

System specs: PC1 :Scan 3XS Ryzen 5900X, 64GB Corsair veng DDR4 3600, EVGA GTX 3090 Win 10, Quest Pro, Samsung Odyssey G9 Neo monitor. Tir5. PC2 ( Helo) Scan 3XS Intel 9900 K, 32 GB Ram, 2080Ti, 50 inch Phillips monitor

 F/A-18C: Rhino FFB base TianHang F16 grip, Winwing MP 1, F-18 throttle, TO & Combat panels, MFG crosswind & DFB Aces  seat :cool:                       

Viper: WinWing MFSSB base with F-16 grip, Winwing F-16 throttle, plus Vipergear ICP. MFG crosswind rudders. 

Helo ( Apache) set up: Virpil collective with AH64D grip, Cyclic : Virpil CM3 base & TM F18 grip, MFG crosswind rudders, Total controls AH64 MFD's,  TEDAC Unit. 

 

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Is it just me, or this is how it works for others that when using the button mapped AB switch, after pressing the button I have to reverse a little the throttle then push it back to the limit to enable the AB?

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HI, I am trying to set up my new winwing throttle and am having trouble figuring out when exactly in the sim, the AB kicks in....given there are several indications, these being the visual condition of teh engine , nozzle position, fuel flow and RPM percentage.....
I would expect that to get it working " Properly" we need a way to get it to match the in jet RPM percentage and nozzle positions?
Does anyone know what the "correct" figures are for nozzle position, fuel flow and RPM percentage when AB kicks in ? And does the sim accurately portray this?
From looking at in the sim, my current max throttle opening shows nozzle position 45, fuel flow of 68,000 lbs and RPM percentage of 102%.
My other question is how can know when AB kicks in from looking visually? Of course, you get the cone effect, but looking directly into the engine, there is certainly a period of time before this happens when the engine is bright red inside. This happens at Nozzle 10%, fuel 18,000 and RPM 102%. Is this the true start of AB? Obviously, I cant set it correctly unless I know when AB is kicking in in the sim......
The other way to judge would be maybe to look at where DCS have marked AB in the controls position indicator widget? If I use this, fule flow is approx 12,000, nozzles zero & RPM 102%. ( It never seems to go beyond 102% though....) 
 
So which is the correct way? Thanks
Hi,
i got my orion2 with F-16 grip last week and i set it up like this regarding throttle motion range:

1) i never touched the DCS settings of the specific axis (RX i believe), except maybe inverting it.

2) in the SimApPro tool i calibrated that axis from idle to max by moving it forward and back as required. Note: from idle to max, whereas max is Full afterburner and not MIL.

3) i set the DCS control of Idle and cut off to match the position of the throttle ( in the SimApPro tool you see that those positions are actually BUTTONS and can be mapped!

Result: i do now have the throttle physical range of motion matching the the sim range of motion (verified by enabling the Ctrl+enter combination). I can start the engine by freeing the throttle from cutoff to idle when rpm reaches 20% and it works 1:1 in the sim. It's pretty cool, i love this piece of hardware!

Regards

Sent from my MI 10 Lite 5G using Tapatalk

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Fantastic, thanks will give this a try.....

System specs: PC1 :Scan 3XS Ryzen 5900X, 64GB Corsair veng DDR4 3600, EVGA GTX 3090 Win 10, Quest Pro, Samsung Odyssey G9 Neo monitor. Tir5. PC2 ( Helo) Scan 3XS Intel 9900 K, 32 GB Ram, 2080Ti, 50 inch Phillips monitor

 F/A-18C: Rhino FFB base TianHang F16 grip, Winwing MP 1, F-18 throttle, TO & Combat panels, MFG crosswind & DFB Aces  seat :cool:                       

Viper: WinWing MFSSB base with F-16 grip, Winwing F-16 throttle, plus Vipergear ICP. MFG crosswind rudders. 

Helo ( Apache) set up: Virpil collective with AH64D grip, Cyclic : Virpil CM3 base & TM F18 grip, MFG crosswind rudders, Total controls AH64 MFD's,  TEDAC Unit. 

 

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On 5/16/2022 at 3:13 PM, markturner1960 said:

Redkites guide is very useful, however, I am not seeing what he sees ....for example, ataround 2.15 into his guide, when he has moved his throttle to the physical detent position, in my options screen, when I do that, both squares move down to bottom left most point of the graph, whereas in his, they move to the right of the line approx another 10% ..... see screen grab
d15d667d57a09e345a8de8affae71a5e.jpg

I have this before, which is as he shows:
9b3e6595f5cb3461090e73156807ca73.jpg

And this is where my throttle is at max mil power:
70557e91a8530af3b80a2d2f8ac3391f.jpg

I place the throttle to the detent and this happens:

e5d410f369efedccbdb15a75fc5f7823.jpg

So what’s going on there?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You have the Winwing F-16 throttle? You don't need to mess with the curve and all that complicated stuff in DCS then.

Go into the Winwing software, there's a option to calibrate you AB position. Then just play the game and you will see your physical throttle match the in game throttle movement in your jet. 

  

15 hours ago, Rubberduck85 said:

Hi,
i got my orion2 with F-16 grip last week and i set it up like this regarding throttle motion range:

1) i never touched the DCS settings of the specific axis (RX i believe), except maybe inverting it.

2) in the SimApPro tool i calibrated that axis from idle to max by moving it forward and back as required. Note: from idle to max, whereas max is Full afterburner and not MIL.

3) i set the DCS control of Idle and cut off to match the position of the throttle ( in the SimApPro tool you see that those positions are actually BUTTONS and can be mapped!

Result: i do now have the throttle physical range of motion matching the the sim range of motion (verified by enabling the Ctrl+enter combination). I can start the engine by freeing the throttle from cutoff to idle when rpm reaches 20% and it works 1:1 in the sim. It's pretty cool, i love this piece of hardware!

Regards

Sent from my MI 10 Lite 5G using Tapatalk
 

You can just calibrate your AB position in SimAppPro, there's a option to do it. I think it was just moving your throttle to AB detend and click calibrate, that's it. 

 

Guys just look at this screenshot. It's the easiest thing to do...

null

image.png


Edited by SCPanda
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I did try that first - perhaps I did it wrong, as my physical throttle detent does not match the in game position, see above. I set AB to come on when the detent is reached. Will check later

System specs: PC1 :Scan 3XS Ryzen 5900X, 64GB Corsair veng DDR4 3600, EVGA GTX 3090 Win 10, Quest Pro, Samsung Odyssey G9 Neo monitor. Tir5. PC2 ( Helo) Scan 3XS Intel 9900 K, 32 GB Ram, 2080Ti, 50 inch Phillips monitor

 F/A-18C: Rhino FFB base TianHang F16 grip, Winwing MP 1, F-18 throttle, TO & Combat panels, MFG crosswind & DFB Aces  seat :cool:                       

Viper: WinWing MFSSB base with F-16 grip, Winwing F-16 throttle, plus Vipergear ICP. MFG crosswind rudders. 

Helo ( Apache) set up: Virpil collective with AH64D grip, Cyclic : Virpil CM3 base & TM F18 grip, MFG crosswind rudders, Total controls AH64 MFD's,  TEDAC Unit. 

 

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10 minutes ago, markturner1960 said:

I did try that first - perhaps I did it wrong, as my physical throttle detent does not match the in game position, see above. I set AB to come on when the detent is reached. Will check later

Please read this

You probably did it wrong like I did the first time using the software

It should work like a charm. 

BTW, after calibration, AB detent should not only work for the F-16, but for other jets like F-18, F-14 as well. I don't really know how since these jets should have different AB detent postion IRL, but it just works, which is great. 


Edited by SCPanda
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So following Rubberducks advice, I now have it working properly. Thank you - it was much simpler than messing with the curves etc. Thanks again.

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System specs: PC1 :Scan 3XS Ryzen 5900X, 64GB Corsair veng DDR4 3600, EVGA GTX 3090 Win 10, Quest Pro, Samsung Odyssey G9 Neo monitor. Tir5. PC2 ( Helo) Scan 3XS Intel 9900 K, 32 GB Ram, 2080Ti, 50 inch Phillips monitor

 F/A-18C: Rhino FFB base TianHang F16 grip, Winwing MP 1, F-18 throttle, TO & Combat panels, MFG crosswind & DFB Aces  seat :cool:                       

Viper: WinWing MFSSB base with F-16 grip, Winwing F-16 throttle, plus Vipergear ICP. MFG crosswind rudders. 

Helo ( Apache) set up: Virpil collective with AH64D grip, Cyclic : Virpil CM3 base & TM F18 grip, MFG crosswind rudders, Total controls AH64 MFD's,  TEDAC Unit. 

 

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On 5/15/2022 at 11:24 AM, markturner1960 said:

HI, I am trying to set up my new winwing throttle and am having trouble figuring out when exactly in the sim, the AB kicks in....given there are several indications, these being the visual condition of teh engine , nozzle position, fuel flow and RPM percentage.....

I've found the best indication of EXACTLY when the throttle moves into afterburner is to simply watch and listen to the throttle handle.  When it hits the MIL stop, you'll hear a loud and audible "clunk."  From there, if you move it forward into afterburner, you'll visibly see the throttle handle lift to move over the MIL stop.   So now, you just futz with the throttle curve in DCS and/or the WinWing SimAppPro calibration to get it so that when you feel the throttle detent, you hear the "clunk."  

All the other visual and audio indications seem to be a bit imprecise, but that "clunk" is what you're looking for.

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