investigating We need to talk about Force Feedback and the Mossie...

[DD_Fenrir]

My opening statement:

As it currently stands the pitch control and stick force model employed in the DCS: Mosquito model needs review for FFB users, particularly those with Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2.

They currently face an unhappy compromise;

a) either they adopt a linear (1:1) control curves which renders their stick so sensitive to pitch input that it's nearly impossible to fly with any realistic precision for formation or gunnery, or,

b) with even a moderate curve (say 20 to 25, which works nicely on, for example, the P-51) we are subjected to a "trim trap"; this is where we are obliged to trim artificially (i.e. beyond the aircraft operating manual values) so nose heavy to actually reach trimmed flight that it puts us unrealistically close to a virtual threshold that ramps up the virtual stick force. This causes a sudden nose down tendency - tucking - with slight airspeed increases, which, given the very low level cruising and attack profiles often employed by real-life Mosquito crews, can be the cause of loss of controlled flight into terrain; the operator is either obliged to hastily add some nose up trim or apply large elevator control displacement to correct this tendency. If the virtual pilot has succeeded in avoided collecting the ground, sea, tree or structure that the Mossie had suddenly decided was to be their perfect burial plot, they now find themselves porpoising heavily, their airspeed having now dropped in the climb to below that virtual threshold that ramps up the virtual stick force. So now they're trimmed too tail heavy and are fighting to keep the aircraft's nose down. Having generally ballooned during this process, they descend to their correct cruise altitude, pick up a bit of speed on the way down and... pass that virtual threshold that ramps up the virtual stick force again, recommencing the entire ordeal. Trying to fly formation or engage ground targets under these flight characteristics is again, rendered unrealistically difficult.

In either case, flying the Mosquito is not a lot of fun, and it makes me wary of using it, and therefore it seems like a waste of money in some regards. It then colours my keenness of purchasing further modules in the future in case a similar issue arises.

Let me be clear; I am not criticizing Yo-yo's work on the flight model; there are characteristics and restrictions that affected the real aeroplane here that must be transmitted to the player; my argument is that FFB users - and in particular Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 users - are being artificially handicapped based on their gaming hardware due to a mismatch between physical and virtual ergonomics and a trim/stick force model that does not seem to account for the displaced datum inherent to FFB joystick operation.

I would like to propose discussion with ED on how we could help them figure out a way adjusting the DCS: Mosquitos trim/stick force model that would not render the aircraft so uncharacteristically unpleasant to fly for FFB users, but still reflect authentic flight characteristics for all users.

Question to Yo-yo;

 

1. Why as an FFB user is the inherent ability of an FFB stick to provide sufficient stick force to reflect those felt in the real aircraft not being leveraged? Why are FFB users subjected to the same artifice implemented to provide a spring tensioned joystick user with some controllability penalty when reaching the required threshold, when the FFB motors could be driven to provide the requisite force to restrict speed and amplitude of stick displacement?

 

If you are an FFB user who has these issues please like or thank this post.

If you are an FFB user who has NOT had these issues please provide further dialogue so that we might pin-down where and why some of us are having these issues.

If you do not use FFB and are about to tell me to go buy a non-FFB product, please save your breath; there is a reason I hang on to a 20 year-old stick; having flown real aircraft I find the varying stick forces and increased AoA buffet that some aircraft give you a necessary part of my simming experience and you are not going to persuade me otherwise.

If you are going to suggest I spend $1000+ dollars on a new FFB device, then again, save your breath. That is not an affordable option for me.

Edited May 16, 2022 by DD_Fenrir

[Wiggy]

100% agree with Fenrir here. 

I no longer fly the Mosquito because of this issue, it saps the enjoyment of flying when these bizarre pitch moments occur.

I agree it feels like you reach some kind of threshold in airspeed and the trim suddenly changes (not visibly) to such an extent you have to make extreme corrections. It also feels like there’s a HUGE deadzone when this happens, particularly on my extended control stick. 

Also to note, I have a P-47 sized stick extension so can fly the Mosquito with zero curve, and the pitching oddities still occur. 

It feels like the physical input from the stick suddenly translates differently to the game/aircraft, thus it wouldn’t show up as an issue if I were to send a track.  I’ve tested it with the visible control indicator on. I think the only way would be for one of you chaps at ED to grab a FFB2 and give it a bit of testing. You’ll notice it very quickly.

Cheers,

Wiggy 

[Boosterdog]

Given the Sidewinder is the "go to" option in a very limited field,  isnt, by comparsion with other gear, prohibitively expensive or hard to get and is built like a Toyota Hilux (which cannot be said for much of the other stuff) I would have thought its use in the dev of helo and WW2 modules would/should be almost mandatory even if the unit itself is long out of production.  

Ive long since put mine away since it seems FFB has fallen out of favour with devs but that was a reluctant choice.

Kudos to Fenrir for a well presented and thought out OP. 

[peachmonkey]

4 hours ago, Boosterdog said:

Given the Sidewinder is the "go to" option in a very limited field,  isnt, by comparsion with other gear, prohibitively expensive or hard to get and is built like a Toyota Hilux (which cannot be said for much of the other stuff) I would have thought its use in the dev of helo and WW2 modules would/should be almost mandatory even if the unit itself is long out of production.  

Ive long since put mine away since it seems FFB has fallen out of favour with devs but that was a reluctant choice.

Kudos to Fenrir for a well presented and thought out OP. 

 

In a thread about K4's tendency to pitch up at all times/tail heavy behavior I saw yo-yo's response how he didn't see a problem in operation since they're using the FFB system (he didn't state the manufacturer) without the pesky springed return-to-center 'conventional' joysticks.  Not sure if it translates to ED's using FFB for the actual AC testing though...

[DD_wingflyr]

I agree with Fen, well written.

I along with Wiggy put it aside in hopes of a soon fix. The curves applied helps but still wishy washy in the air.

Thanks for you input Fen.

[Bozon]

Just a small tip/comment not FFB related:

In the Mosquito do not use a lot of curve, use a large amount of Y saturation instead. You never need the full Y range - the plane stalls at low positive Y values, and you don’t push a lot of negative G with it anyway. The curve with no Y saturation just means that when you pull into the stall AoA, you pull really deep into the stall range - not useful.

[walmis]

Hey guys, I've noticed some FFB related discussions, so I figured I'll jump in a bit since I'm working in the field for quite a while  So I have been developing a a plug and play FFB system for the past few years, and recently started shipping first motor kits and first 'RHINO' FFB bases. The FFB motor kit is aimed for cockpit builders and hobby mechanics who want to build their own stick/cyclic, It solves the complicated problem of system control, motor power delivery, USB communication, etc. I very much hope more people will (re)discover FFB and we, FFB users, will receive more love from ED.

Feel free to join my discord server: https://discord.gg/XEXZmQHk3T to keep in the loop about the latest developments.

My YouTube channel with some FFB demos: https://www.youtube.com/user/walmis

 

[RealDCSpilot]

@DD_FenrirDid you try it with a small dead zone? From my experience with the MSFFB2 and the G940 i can't recommend using curves ever with a FFB stick. Only use saturation to tune sensitivity if needed. The dead zone might help with a general problem of those good old FFB sticks, the sensor and motor "sloppiness" in neutral center position. Luckily, i'm one of the first owners of Walmis's Rhino FFB bases now. It's a much more modern, year 2022 tech FFB base and i have no troubles in the Mossi.

Edited May 19, 2022 by RealDCSpilot

[peachmonkey]

8 hours ago, walmis said:

Hey guys, I've noticed some FFB related discussions, so I figured I'll jump in a bit since I'm working in the field for quite a while  So I have been developing a a plug and play FFB system for the past few years, and recently started shipping first motor kits and first 'RHINO' FFB bases. The FFB motor kit is aimed for cockpit builders and hobby mechanics who want to build their own stick/cyclic, It solves the complicated problem of system control, motor power delivery, USB communication, etc. I very much hope more people will (re)discover FFB and we, FFB users, will receive more love from ED.

Feel free to join my discord server: https://discord.gg/XEXZmQHk3T to keep in the loop about the latest developments.

My YouTube channel with some FFB demos: https://www.youtube.com/user/walmis

 

you creation is truly awesome. I need it!!

 

[dresoccer4]

+10

i love the Mossie but it is not fun to fly with my Microsoft FFB2 stick. It's so extremely sensitive and I have trimming issues as well if I try to add curves. I thought I was just going crazy so I'm so glad to see a thread on it. Hoping gets the attention it deserves as the plane is so close to perfect.

[VirusAM]

Unfortunately the only very good ffb implementations in dcs are f14 and F5.
One solution could be to write an external program which takes telemetry from dcs and adds to the stock ffb implentation, sort of how Brunner implemented dcs ffb support.

[StiC]

I have the same issues. It is impossible to trim properly and maintain full stick control over the elevators. If I trim nose down, it creates a deadzone on the stick aft of center. I can gently pull on the SW FFB2 and the control surfaces do not move until I reach the threshold of the deadzone. At this point the in game stick and control surfaces jump to the FFB2 current position. The opposite happens if I trim nose up. Curves and saturation do not help.

In some other modules the center force moves around as you trim. In the mossie, it's as if the game moved the center force, but did not send that information to the stick and now you must reach the new center point before the game responds. 

Edited July 24, 2022 by StiC
grammar

[Wiggy]

Very well explained StiC. This is exactly what I encounter too. 

It’s a fantastic module, truly, but this bug has made it completely unenjoyable and impractical to fly. All my mates are buzzing around at zero feet having a ball! Please fix asap!

Thanks,

Wiggy

[BIGNEWY]

I do not have force feedback to check but will highlight to the team. 

thanks

[VirusAM]

I can check, as I have an ffb stick

Edited September 19, 2022 by VirusAM

[hazzer]

One of the issues mentioned here is the fact that with curves applied it really messes up the trim, this is actually the case on most(all?) of the aircraft. It would be magical if after years and years of me begging if this could be resolved. When FFB is enabled and a curve is applied, the trimmer should move proportional to the curve. Not as if it was still linear, this is actually more obvious on some of the jets (su27 springs to mind) with curves applied on the '27 you cannot actually trim the nose far enough down.

[VirusAM]

I spent a night flying the Mosquito with my Rhino FFB stick, its motors and spring force are much stronger then the FFB2 or the g940 (i had both previously) but in any case it is really too sensitive with a FFB stick.

I have to say that also the Mirage F1 has similar issues for me, and precision flying is quite difficult with those two modules.

Curves are no-go for FFB users, so I hope that these issues can be mitigated with some fixes

[dresoccer4]

3 hours ago, VirusAM said:

I spent a night flying the Mosquito with my Rhino FFB stick, its motors and spring force are much stronger then the FFB2 or the g940 (i had both previously) but in any case it is really too sensitive with a FFB stick.

I have to say that also the Mirage F1 has similar issues for me, and precision flying is quite difficult with those two modules.

Curves are no-go for FFB users, so I hope that these issues can be mitigated with some fixes

yes. glad to hear you confirm on your end. is there a better way to officially report these issues with the devs?

Edited August 25, 2022 by dresoccer4

[VirusAM]

On 8/25/2022 at 2:54 AM, dresoccer4 said:

yes. glad to hear you confirm on your end. is there a better way to officially report these issues with the devs?

 

Yeah, I am working on that, reviewing all modules issues with FFB

[amazingme]

9 minutes ago, VirusAM said:

Yeah, I am working on that, reviewing all modules issues with FFB

The ol' SU-27 module worked fine with the FFB.. 

[NineLine]

I have asked about FFB, and we generally do not support it due to lack of available hardware, I hope this changes in the future, but we have limited support for now.

[VirusAM]

On 9/9/2022 at 12:36 AM, NineLine said:

I have asked about FFB, and we generally do not support it due to lack of available hardware, I hope this changes in the future, but we have limited support for now.

Well, things are already changing. There is the Rhino which a lot of DCS users are receiving (I am one of those who already have it in their hands). So there is definitely new hardware out there, and also DIY projects 

Yes spring based joystick are the main audience, but you have also to consider that we are just asking for the basics, like a proper aircraft handling and aerodinamic trim. For non FBW jets, warbirds and helicopters proper force feedback is a big difference.

Of course the love Heatblur put into their F14 ffb implementation is welcome, but as said we are not asking strange or exotic effecs and similar stuff, but just to be able to fly properly

 

Edited September 19, 2022 by VirusAM

[propeler]

Actually, it is possible to implement  A LOT with telemetry provides from DCS. Even basic telemetry.  In my firmware I implemented bunch of effects and more to come. There are:

- Stick load depending on speed. Natural square curve progression.

- Stick load depending on prop thrust, so emulates prop washing of control surfaces.

- Artifficial spring based on AoA and G force(obviously with curve tuning)

- Elevator weight emulation

- Air dynamic center shift effects due to flaps, gear, spoilers retraction.

- Turbulence effects due to flaps, gear, spoiler retraction.

- AoA and G force shaking. All shaking effects with tunable frequencies and power.

- Landing effects.

And some more are planned. Expect separate application that can feed any FFB joystick with such effects to be released soon

Edited September 15, 2022 by propeler

[VirusAM]

On 9/15/2022 at 1:57 PM, propeler said:

Actually, it is possible to implement  A LOT with telemetry provides from DCS. Even basic telemetry.  In my firmware I implemented bunch of effects and more to come. There are:

- Stick load depending on speed. Natural square curve progression.

- Stick load depending on prop thrust, so emulates prop washing of control surfaces.

- Artifficial spring based on AoA and G force(obviously with curve tuning)

- Elevator weight emulation

- Air dynamic center shift effects due to flaps, gear, spoilers retraction.

- Turbulence effects due to flaps, gear, spoiler retraction.

- AoA and G force shaking. All shaking effects with tunable frequencies and power.

- Landing effects.

And some more are planned. Expect separate application that can feed any FFB joystick with such effects to be released soon

 

So are you planning to make it compatible with all the devices and not only yours?...

 

Edited September 19, 2022 by VirusAM

[propeler]

13 minutes ago, VirusAM said:

So are you planning to make it compatible with all the devices and not only yours?

Yes. It will be standalone application with output to directinput FFB device in first version. I already implemented MSFS, DCS and Warthunder telemetry. Working on direct input devices stuff. And "my device" is not my any more