Targeting Pod Choice

[Temetre]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb Furiz:

Yeah, it's in the Viper Roadmap page1 pinned in F-16 forum,

I'm only concerned on how long will Early Access state last, since they plan on bringing SniperXR after EA. But lookint at Hornet that is still in EA after how much, 4-5years? and Viper was announced in july 2019, we might have to be patient with Sniper XR.

Im sure itll take a while, but im fine being patient now that the Litening stay till then. I wonder if the Sniper XR will now come sooner though, considering the LANTIRN was supposed to come before the Sniper.

I also wonder a bit how much of a difference the pod will make? Idk if its because of watching it on a flat screen, or because of DCS' rendering, but the difference between pods like LITENING/ATFLIR does seem that big anyway. Eg the Lantirns lack of TV seemed like a bigger factor than the difference between pods like that.

Edited April 29, 2023 by Temetre

[Harlikwin]

1 hour ago, Temetre said:

Im sure itll take a while, but im fine being patient now that the Litening stay till then. I wonder if the Sniper XR will now come sooner though, considering the LANTIRN was supposed to come before the Sniper.

I also wonder a bit how much of a difference the pod will make? Idk if its because of watching it on a flat screen, or because of DCS' rendering, but the difference between pods like LITENING/ATFLIR does seem that big anyway. Eg the Lantirns lack of TV seemed like a bigger factor than the difference between pods like that.

 

ED doesn't model anything relating to sensor performance. In fact the ATFLIR/LITENING are not even working in the correct "band". The apache FLIR that the FLIR "model" was built for uses LWIR radiation, while ATFLIR/LITENING etc all use MWIR due too superior range performance in that band. ED models nothing of this. Nor things like degradation with digital zooom and so forth. I also have little doubt they will model even a fraction of what SNIPER can do, because most of that is actually classified AFAIK, especially the A/A stuff.

So more or less, you will get a reskin of a TGP and some different A/G symbiology and thats gonna be that maybe some better "zoom".

 

Edited April 29, 2023 by Harlikwin

[VarZat]

The collateral damage circle would be a really cool addition.

[Geraki]

Block50 with only NAVIGATION pod (AN/AAQ-13 navigation pod)of LANTIRN

[Temetre]

vor 16 Stunden schrieb Harlikwin:

ED doesn't model anything relating to sensor performance. In fact the ATFLIR/LITENING are not even working in the correct "band". The apache FLIR that the FLIR "model" was built for uses LWIR radiation, while ATFLIR/LITENING etc all use MWIR due too superior range performance in that band. ED models nothing of this. Nor things like degradation with digital zooom and so forth. I also have little doubt they will model even a fraction of what SNIPER can do, because most of that is actually classified AFAIK, especially the A/A stuff.

So more or less, you will get a reskin of a TGP and some different A/G symbiology and thats gonna be that maybe some better "zoom".

Aw shame, guess its not gonna be all the big of a change. Makes me wonder how much pods are over/underperforming due to the lack of simulation. Sure we eg dont got digital zoom noise, but it seems like the IR image (and how it looks on our screen) is also much less detailed and clear than in reality. Technical limitations both benefit and hurt the pods usage.

But reading up about the Sniper Pod, maybe theres a few thing it could bring? Apparently its lower drag and lighter, which is gonna be nice, especially in A2A mode and multirole missions. Viewing angle "backwards" seems bigger too? Im curious about the color camera, that could help with visibility issues and make orientation+identification easier. Especially TV-imagine would benefit a lot from higher zoom, but IR could be nice too for standoff ammunition/identifications. I wonder if the IR-image will be less noisy than in current pods? Apparently got a dual mode laser, maybe the stronger setting is higher range? Could help with logner ranged laser-guided munitions like GBU-39s or Mavericks (at least on the F-15E).

If current tech trends are anything to go by, I would bet that the Sniper Pod can also combine TV image with IR highlights? Maybe even with the ability to indentify targets through image recognition, even missile sensors can do that these days. The ability to automatically scan for and select highlights seems quite logical for a digital system. Maybe that kinda stuff is classified or hard to reproduce though.

Edited April 30, 2023 by Temetre

[BIGNEWY]

18 hours ago, Geraki said:

Block50 with only NAVIGATION pod (AN/AAQ-13 navigation pod)of LANTIRN

Please try to remember we are modelling a F-16CM Block 50, roughly M4.2+, operated by the United States Air Force and Air National Guard circa 2007.

Although Block 40/42 US Vipers operated with both LANTIRN pods (TGP and NAV), 50/52 did not. Some USAF 50/52 units just operated with the LANTIRN TGP but not the NAV pod

Mainly due to the 40/42 having a more strike focus with LANTIRN and having the big, wide-angle "War HUD" for NAV FLIR projection.

[Stratos]

On 4/30/2023 at 5:22 PM, BIGNEWY said:

Please try to remember we are modelling a F-16CM Block 50, roughly M4.2+, operated by the United States Air Force and Air National Guard circa 2007.

Although Block 40/42 US Vipers operated with both LANTIRN pods (TGP and NAV), 50/52 did not. Some USAF 50/52 units just operated with the LANTIRN TGP but not the NAV pod

Mainly due to the 40/42 having a more strike focus with LANTIRN and having the big, wide-angle "War HUD" for NAV FLIR projection.

Does that mean we will not get the NAV FLIR on the HUD?

[_SteelFalcon_]

7 minutes ago, Stratos said:

Does that mean we will not get the NAV FLIR on the HUD?

Nope.

[Stratos]

9 minutes ago, _SteelFalcon_ said:

Nope.

Thanks for clarificating.

[Harlikwin]

On 4/30/2023 at 4:27 AM, Temetre said:

Aw shame, guess its not gonna be all the big of a change. Makes me wonder how much pods are over/underperforming due to the lack of simulation. Sure we eg dont got digital zoom noise, but it seems like the IR image (and how it looks on our screen) is also much less detailed and clear than in reality. Technical limitations both benefit and hurt the pods usage.

Not really. I mean up close maybe, but in general 90% of the videos you see of FLIR stuff is at very close range and from almost any acceptable range its gonna look way worse. Especially for early generation pods like the LANTIRN. LANTIRN is also far less sensitive than the later 3rd gen pods and operates in LWIR, meaning you won't even see targets till you are close. There are a few F111 pod videos that illustrate this "phenomenon" with PAVETAC where you basically don't see the target till you are right on top of it. Also meteorological conditions near the target are a massive issue with thermal, high humidity environments will greatly degrade FLIR performance. Whereas nice dry weather in Nevada will work great for thermals. These are major pilot/weapon planning issues when planning actual strikes/attacks. Of course none of its modeled in DCS not one Iota.

On 4/30/2023 at 4:27 AM, Temetre said:

But reading up about the Sniper Pod, maybe theres a few thing it could bring? Apparently its lower drag and lighter, which is gonna be nice, especially in A2A mode and multirole missions. Viewing angle "backwards" seems bigger too? Im curious about the color camera, that could help with visibility issues and make orientation+identification easier. Especially TV-imagine would benefit a lot from higher zoom, but IR could be nice too for standoff ammunition/identifications. I wonder if the IR-image will be less noisy than in current pods? Apparently got a dual mode laser, maybe the stronger setting is higher range? Could help with logner ranged laser-guided munitions like GBU-39s or Mavericks (at least on the F-15E).

Yeah so all of those things you mention are things with sniper to various degrees. However, AFAIK all of that information that could be used on a technical basis is classified AFAIK. In general ED does poor job of modeling anything with the lasers on the pods either, especially say the basic not-classified in the least fact that lasers don't work through clouds. But also yes, later pod lasers will have more range. At least Razbam made the LANTIRN pod laser turn off above 25k. 

On 4/30/2023 at 4:27 AM, Temetre said:

If current tech trends are anything to go by, I would bet that the Sniper Pod can also combine TV image with IR highlights? Maybe even with the ability to indentify targets through image recognition, even missile sensors can do that these days. The ability to automatically scan for and select highlights seems quite logical for a digital system. Maybe that kinda stuff is classified or hard to reproduce though.

 

Even more stuff that isn't modeled by ED at all is the fact that one of the major feature of the pods is to basically be able to transmit video to JTAC's over DL and vice versa in various circumstances. Of course beyond the half baked JTAC model no one really uses much we aren't getting anything like that. Though alot of that is not really classified but just not something ED is interested in doing.

Overall the other half of the issue with the TGP's is ignorance about the topic from the community in general. Most of the playerbases' knowledge of the topic IMO comes from Hollywood movies or other video games that also do really poor job with modeling anything like it. So you have people whine about the image isn't good enough or its too poor etc when they literally have no clue what they are talking about. 

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by Harlikwin

[Temetre]

Am 5.10.2023 um 23:20 schrieb Harlikwin:

Not really. I mean up close maybe, but in general 90% of the videos you see of FLIR stuff is at very close range and from almost any acceptable range its gonna look way worse. Especially for early generation pods like the LANTIRN. LANTIRN is also far less sensitive than the later 3rd gen pods and operates in LWIR, meaning you won't even see targets till you are close. There are a few F111 pod videos that illustrate this "phenomenon" with PAVETAC where you basically don't see the target till you are right on top of it. Also meteorological conditions near the target are a massive issue with thermal, high humidity environments will greatly degrade FLIR performance. Whereas nice dry weather in Nevada will work great for thermals. These are major pilot/weapon planning issues when planning actual strikes/attacks. Of course none of its modeled in DCS not one Iota.

Yeah so all of those things you mention are things with sniper to various degrees. However, AFAIK all of that information that could be used on a technical basis is classified AFAIK. In general ED does poor job of modeling anything with the lasers on the pods either, especially say the basic not-classified in the least fact that lasers don't work through clouds. But also yes, later pod lasers will have more range. At least Razbam made the LANTIRN pod laser turn off above 25k. 

Even more stuff that isn't modeled by ED at all is the fact that one of the major feature of the pods is to basically be able to transmit video to JTAC's over DL and vice versa in various circumstances. Of course beyond the half baked JTAC model no one really uses much we aren't getting anything like that. Though alot of that is not really classified but just not something ED is interested in doing.

Overall the other half of the issue with the TGP's is ignorance about the topic from the community in general. Most of the playerbases' knowledge of the topic IMO comes from Hollywood movies or other video games that also do really poor job with modeling anything like it. So you have people whine about the image isn't good enough or its too poor etc when they literally have no clue what they are talking about. 

Of course FLIR pods IRL can be quite tricky to use, some of which arent represented in the game, but DCS' alsop has a ton of issue that are specific to its engine/coding. The whole "tank going somewhere, then shutting off, and it becomes invisible in no time" is a perfect example. Generally the lack of contrast between a vehicle and the ground, as long as its not actively driving for a while.

IIRC I was also mostly talking about more modern pods, like the Sniper XR or Atflir.

 

And frankly, the way we use the pod ingame isnt reflective of reality anyway, under most circumstances. You mention the basic JTAC, but just the way DCS works probably leaves very little room for realistic simulation. Outside of super heavy scripted and prepared missions maybe. I imagine theres way less searching for targets IRL, and more striking predetermined targets (or loitering till you get a strike request). 

[Harlikwin]

On 10/7/2023 at 5:46 AM, Temetre said:

Of course FLIR pods IRL can be quite tricky to use, some of which arent represented in the game, but DCS' alsop has a ton of issue that are specific to its engine/coding. The whole "tank going somewhere, then shutting off, and it becomes invisible in no time" is a perfect example. Generally the lack of contrast between a vehicle and the ground, as long as its not actively driving for a while.

IIRC I was also mostly talking about more modern pods, like the Sniper XR or Atflir.

 

And frankly, the way we use the pod ingame isnt reflective of reality anyway, under most circumstances. You mention the basic JTAC, but just the way DCS works probably leaves very little room for realistic simulation. Outside of super heavy scripted and prepared missions maybe. I imagine theres way less searching for targets IRL, and more striking predetermined targets (or loitering till you get a strike request). 

Yeah the whole DCS FLIR "model" is just bad. Like the ground has variable contrast depending on time of day and so forth, while in DCS its pretty static from what I can tell. Also, vehicles in general should have different contrast regardless because they are made of different material with different emissivity and so forth. IR is not some simplistic "predator" model, what something looks like is a combination of emissivity and reflectivity of the material, as well as heat. I've repeatedly shown images here of stuff at the same exact temp that show up entirely differently in FLIR. The idea that some object will magically disappear if it becomes the same "temperature" as the background shows how badly ED misunderstands FLIR at a basic highschool level. Moreover basic sensor principles don't seem to exist. Like there is no detection range difference between first gen pods like LANTIRN, and later 3rd gen pods like ATFLIR/Litening, whereas IRL there were major differences in detection ranges between those systems due to how much more sensitive the latter pods were (which amusingly became a problem because issues like veiling glare on the battlefield, but I digress). I mean if more people understood it they'd be up in arms if the mig21 radar performed like the AWG-9 as an example. 

With regards to modern pods like I said, alot of the actual technical information you'd need to model them well is either unknown or very well obfuscated. Or even the case of basic stuff like "digital" zoom on the Litening pods which I'd hope guys that code things like graphics should understand its not even modeled. But the fact of the matter is at best we have one "model" working in the LWIR part of the spectrum, and most of the modern pods working in MWIR part of the spectrum. 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Harlikwin