Can Flap Breaking Logic be updated for us BFM pilots?

[Stackhouse]

My understanding of the F14 flap behavior is that there is an arbitrary amount where if the flaps are >X degrees they will break >Y speed. I have read that there was a way to exploit this by editing lua files to allow the flaps to be bound to an axis. This would allow the pilot to manipulate the flaps just low enough to get a turn rate increase but not the suffer the intended effects of the flap breaking behavior.

Now that the flaps now officially support being bound to an axis I would imagine that this strategy would be employed more commonly in a way that moreso circumvents the flap breaking behavior rather than being realistically subject to the penalties of using maneuver flaps above certain airspeeds. Are there any plans for this to be updated to be a bit more realistic? This is definitely important for us who participate commonly in BFM.

[iantron]

Your maneuvering (employed via the DLC axis) flaps will retract automatically without breaking, and that is exactly what they're designed for. Are you asking to prevent people from limiting the range of their axis or stop the flaps from breaking?

Your manual flaps are the ones DCS people use to "gain the upper hand". If you limit the range of output of the axis... Why not just use the maneuvering flaps in the first place?

[Spurts]

Not sure what you are asking.  Maneuver flaps are automatically scheduled so adjusting them manually is not going to provide real benefit.  Landing flaps are currently, afaik, realistically set up currently.  Just don't use them over 200kts, just don't.  

[Callsign JoNay]

1 hour ago, Spurts said:

Not sure what you are asking.  Maneuver flaps are automatically scheduled so adjusting them manually is not going to provide real benefit.  Landing flaps are currently, afaik, realistically set up currently.  Just don't use them over 200kts, just don't.  

He's saying you can put the landing flaps out partially at over 200 kts and not break them.

[Spurts]

I fail to see any purpose to that when Maneuver flaps are in play, but that's just me I guess.

[Comrade Doge]

4 minutes ago, Spurts said:

I fail to see any purpose to that when Maneuver flaps are in play, but that's just me I guess.

From my limited experience, the CADC will lift the maneuver flaps up after a certain speed (or probably some other parameters as well). Using the Flap handle partially will not be overidden by the CADC.

[Spurts]

2 minutes ago, Comrade Doge said:

From my limited experience, the CADC will lift the maneuver flaps up after a certain speed (or probably some other parameters as well). Using the Flap handle partially will not be overidden by the CADC.

at higher speeds having flaps deployed is going to make L/D worse, not better.

[Comrade Doge]

2 minutes ago, Spurts said:

at higher speeds having flaps deployed is going to make L/D worse, not better.

What's L/D? I am talking mostly about the effect of such techniques in BFM, most notably boosting the rate speeds.

[Spurts]

L/D is the Lift to Drag ratio.  If the L/D gets worse than for a given G load at a given speed you will have worse acceleration/deceleration performance, i.e. a worse sustained turn rate.  There is so much more to BFM than just hitting a turn rate speed.

[BreaKKer]

Another thing to note is full flaps in BFM was done for slow speed 1C fights irl by cheating smart F-14 pilots. A notable user of this was Snodgrass

[Comrade Doge]

7 minutes ago, Spurts said:

L/D is the Lift to Drag ratio.  If the L/D gets worse than for a given G load at a given speed you will have worse acceleration/deceleration performance, i.e. a worse sustained turn rate.  There is so much more to BFM than just hitting a turn rate speed.

Well OP is taking about using it for a higher sustained turn rate, and from my limted knowledge flaps indeed boost the degrees per second...

[Spurts]

6 minutes ago, Comrade Doge said:

Well OP is taking about using it for a higher sustained turn rate, and from my limted knowledge flaps indeed boost the degrees per second...

At certain speeds, not all speeds.  Plus not long after you are too fast for maneuver flaps you are also getting fast enough the wings will start sweeping.

13 minutes ago, BreaKKer said:

Another thing to note is full flaps in BFM was done for slow speed 1C fights irl by cheating smart F-14 pilots. A notable user of this was Snodgrass

I've used them for better control under 180kts and to help go over the top.  My rule of thumb is if I am nose up under 200 I'll consider putting them out, if I'm nose down over 180 I pull them up no questions asked.

[Comrade Doge]

5 minutes ago, Spurts said:

At certain speeds, not all speeds.  Plus not long after you are too fast for maneuver flaps you are also getting fast enough the wings will start sweeping.

I agree it's the pilot's duty to maintain the certain rate speeds to maximize the turn rate. About the wing sweep, the flaps controlled by the lever will not be lifted up automatically when the wings sweep, the wings will stop at a certain point, to not interfere with the flaps.

Edited May 18, 2022 by Comrade Doge

[Spurts]

Correct, and when that happens you are killing yourself with excess drag.  Again, if your BFM plan is to hit a rate speed and try to out-rate your opponent then what you need is a broader BFM toolbox (practice), not an extra degree per second of rate.  At low speeds the Tomcat already holds a turn rate advantage, and thus also a radius advantage, both in sustained turn capability and transient turn capability.  Trying to use flaps at 0.7M+ is the wrong plan.

[Comrade Doge]

4 minutes ago, Spurts said:

Correct, and when that happens you are killing yourself with excess drag.  Again, if your BFM plan is to hit a rate speed and try to out-rate your opponent then what you need is a broader BFM toolbox (practice), not an extra degree per second of rate.  At low speeds the Tomcat already holds a turn rate advantage, and thus also a radius advantage, both in sustained turn capability and transient turn capability.  Trying to use flaps at 0.7M+ is the wrong plan.

Allow me to get a bit off topic for a brief moment, what speeds would you be looking for in terms of sustained turn rate on the deck? Do you think that maintaining the exact same speeds but with the flaps down, say at 27%, where they will not jam, will give an increased turn rate? (which, as you said, is not to be completely relied upon, it's just another tool in the toolbox)

[Stackhouse]

18 minutes ago, Spurts said:

Correct, and when that happens you are killing yourself with excess drag.  Again, if your BFM plan is to hit a rate speed and try to out-rate your opponent then what you need is a broader BFM toolbox (practice), not an extra degree per second of rate.  At low speeds the Tomcat already holds a turn rate advantage, and thus also a radius advantage, both in sustained turn capability and transient turn capability.  Trying to use flaps at 0.7M+ is the wrong plan.

I don't really think that's the issue at hand. I personally have hundreds of hours of purely BFM time and my main activity on DCS is on nothing but BFM servers. The issue is that there was intended to be a specific penalty to utlizing flaps above a certain airspeed as they are subject to damage. My understanding is that by managing the flaps through an axis there is a way to simply ensure that your flaps are very close to that limit but never actually below that limit which would cause damage. In a way it's more about meta-gaming a simple system and circumventing the penalty by using curves/modifying output values over actually using the thing within the limitations of the real world jet.

[Comrade Doge]

13 minutes ago, Stackhouse said:

I don't really think that's the issue at hand. I personally have hundreds of hours of purely BFM time and my main activity on DCS is on nothing but BFM servers. The issue is that there was intended to be a specific penalty to utlizing flaps above a certain airspeed as they are subject to damage. My understanding is that by managing the flaps through an axis there is a way to simply ensure that your flaps are very close to that limit but never actually below that limit which would cause damage. In a way it's more about meta-gaming a simple system and circumventing the penalty by using curves/modifying output values over actually using the thing within the limitations of the real world jet.

While it may be apparent as a gamey thing to do, the flap limit for extending the aux flaps (which jam) is detailed in the documentation as well, a 5 degree angle of the lever. I'd imagine in the real jet you could draw a simple marker on the lever, and use the flaps in flight. Still against the NATOPS, but as others before me said, pilots used it despite the rules, a notable example would be Dale.

[lunaticfringe]

19 minutes ago, Comrade Doge said:

While it may be apparent as a gamey thing to do, the flap limit for extending the aux flaps (which jam) is detailed in the documentation as well, a 5 degree angle of the lever. I'd imagine in the real jet you could draw a simple marker on the lever, and use the flaps in flight. Still against the NATOPS, but as others before me said, pilots used it despite the rules, a notable example would be Dale.

 

Let's go hunting heads down for a mark on the outboard handle frame during head out of the cockpit BFM- that sounds like an idea.

The big boys were up, or were down.  There wasn't this min-maxing game being played in the middle of a rolling scissors at the top of the loop. The actuation of the flap handle was applied as an axis as a matter of convenience to those who have a controller that would be more useful to have it on an axis, not for a gradation function targeting a specific angle in a methodology that wasn't available in practice. 

As has been expressed by HB's SMEs- Snort was an amazing stick and talent.  He also had a habit for breaking perfectly good airplanes and leaving hell to pay for maintenance staff.  You too can enjoy this exact level of realism with the system as it already exists. 

[Spurts]

54 minutes ago, Comrade Doge said:

Allow me to get a bit off topic for a brief moment, what speeds would you be looking for in terms of sustained turn rate on the deck? Do you think that maintaining the exact same speeds but with the flaps down, say at 27%, where they will not jam, will give an increased turn rate? (which, as you said, is not to be completely relied upon, it's just another tool in the toolbox)

On the deck STR peaks around .45M at 20 units AoA based on my own testing.  Maneuver flaps are out already, so no point in trying to drop them further.

[RustBelt]

22 minutes ago, lunaticfringe said:

As has been expressed by HB's SMEs- Snort was an amazing stick and talent.  He also had a habit for breaking perfectly good airplanes and leaving hell to pay for maintenance staff. 

Now that’s understatement of the year! Still waiting on the NTSB final report on that one! 
 

If your wings are out, the Maneuver flaps to the job. Forcing the Aux flaps is just a way of trading a broken plane for an out turned plane. Go vertical, push your power advantage and stop flying the Tomcat like a big Hornet.

[lunaticfringe]

23 minutes ago, RustBelt said:

Now that’s understatement of the year! Still waiting on the NTSB final report on that one! 

 

Definitely not the intended direction of the comment, and I cast no aspersions towards or opinions on that event.  It is simply a matter of recognizing that while his willingness to go to the limit is why so many adore him, that comes at a cost to the guys turning wrenches. 

 

23 minutes ago, RustBelt said:

Go vertical, push your power advantage and stop flying the Tomcat like a big Hornet.

 

This.  When people want to mention what Snort did with the flaps handle and a fuse disabled, I expect them to be capable of performing as Snort did without pulling those tricks.  

Come back when your decision making and aircraft handling is on this level. 

 

 

Edited May 18, 2022 by lunaticfringe

[iantron]

On that note what we really need is for the CBs to be fully implemented.

[lunaticfringe]

12 minutes ago, iantron said:

On that note what we really need is for the CBs to be fully implemented.

[RustBelt]

2 hours ago, iantron said:

On that note what we really need is for the CBs to be fully implemented.

Sure, put that on the list right after the B(U) the D realistic leak stains as you fly, and them ever finishing the bomb racks.

[RustBelt]

2 hours ago, lunaticfringe said:

 

Definitely not the intended direction of the comment, and I cast no aspersions towards or opinions on that event.  It is simply a matter of recognizing that while his willingness to go to the limit is why so many adore him, that comes at a cost to the guys turning wrenches

For all the real and aspiring real pilots though, the more you get away with bad habits, the higher your tolerance for deviations gets. Aviation is extra good with letting you make and build bad habits for a long time before you roll snake eyes.  
 

And to bring it back OT, bad habits like playing with the flap handle in a dogfight trying to copy some edge case sports gimmick some bored tomcat pilot was playing with in a pretend engagement because the Tomcat never really engaged in any actual guns combat in its entire lifetime in the USN. 
 

Also great video to show how they first loaded in some vertical energy before each big turn where they cash it back out. 

Edited May 18, 2022 by RustBelt