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Feedback Thread - Tomcat Patch 18th May 2022


IronMike

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On 5/25/2022 at 12:48 PM, IronMike said:

ED told us it was fixed in the (then) next revision, but if it is not in their changelog, it may not have made it into the patch still. Internally at least it is disabled now from their side (for the F14), so in the F14 you can have wake turbulence on for other modules, but the F14 will use its own in the future.

We are still trying to figure out what is actually going wrong, but it is definitely a priority item.

 

A lot of what’s going wrong is all the FFB is being run on 20 year old hardware that’s tired. Or stuff that has to talk to DirectInput through an interpreter because it’s enterprise level equipment playing down to old DirectX FFB.
 

The fact that it works at all is still a small miracle given the circumstances.  

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Could be me but i have been trying for a while to pull out of a descent to go level, but i find i am just yoyoing the nose,  i am watching the VVI gauge see it move passed -2 to -1 start to ease off the pull to go level and it either continues 0.5, level, +0.5, +1, and maybe onto +2 or it starts to descend again if i ease off too much.   This happens if im pulling out of a descent or pushing from a climb.  Im trimming best i can of course, but still we yoyo.   Now if i look at the HUD tape VVI this is just Ying Yang, even as i do get close to level the slightest pitch change and its off the scale. Im aware the HUD lags the Gauge but its hard work lately getting her level, even engage AP level is a lottery.

It just seems there is no authority to get the nose up but once you get it going its hard to stop it going further than you wanted, then when you do get it fairly level the slightest pitch change has the HUD VVI doing the ohki coki.

My curves are quite conservative, Y at 13 with a warthog.

General flying around was really laid back and tanking was effortless, but recently its not pleasant to even fly, nor would it be pleasant to watch id guess.

 

I am somewhat of a novice and it could very well be me doing the Ying Yang, but I had thought my flying form was mastered now, but just lately its not fun...

and getting on AOA quickly enough for the boat? well that's another story...

 

any ideas, helps, tips, appreciated.

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Be less conservative with the curves. The warthog has a teeny throw compared to the stick in the Tomcat. And what doesn’t LOOK like much compared to the horizon is enough for a beast like the F-14 to make 1-2000 FPM. 

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On 5/31/2022 at 5:26 PM, GremlinIV said:

Could be me but i have been trying for a while to pull out of a descent to go level, but i find i am just yoyoing the nose,  i am watching the VVI gauge see it move passed -2 to -1 start to ease off the pull to go level and it either continues 0.5, level, +0.5, +1, and maybe onto +2 or it starts to descend again if i ease off too much.   This happens if im pulling out of a descent or pushing from a climb.  Im trimming best i can of course, but still we yoyo.   Now if i look at the HUD tape VVI this is just Ying Yang, even as i do get close to level the slightest pitch change and its off the scale. Im aware the HUD lags the Gauge but its hard work lately getting her level, even engage AP level is a lottery.

It just seems there is no authority to get the nose up but once you get it going its hard to stop it going further than you wanted, then when you do get it fairly level the slightest pitch change has the HUD VVI doing the ohki coki.

My curves are quite conservative, Y at 13 with a warthog.

General flying around was really laid back and tanking was effortless, but recently its not pleasant to even fly, nor would it be pleasant to watch id guess.

 

I am somewhat of a novice and it could very well be me doing the Ying Yang, but I had thought my flying form was mastered now, but just lately its not fun...

and getting on AOA quickly enough for the boat? well that's another story...

 

any ideas, helps, tips, appreciated.

@GremlinIV hope this helps you a bit. I did not have much time to plan it, so it is a very spontaneously thrown together video in one take, but I hope it gives you an idea or two of how to approach flying level.
 

EDIT: also to second what Rustbelt said: with a good stick, especially in the Tomcat due to the high fidelity FM, it is best to keep the curves at 0. Curves help to mitigate inaccuracies in the stick itself, so if you have stiction issues, or a low-budget stick etc. The same counts for deadzones. If your WH is performing without any stiction issues, and any other of the high end sticks as well, my suggestion is always: keep the curves at 0, pitch deadzone at 0, and maybe add a deadzone of between 1-3 for the roll, simply because your hand resting on the stick (if not mounted), will pull usually the roll to the right a bit.

So my settings (vkb f14 stick) are: pitch curve + deadzone = 0 and 0 ; roll curve + DZ = 0 and 2. rudder curve + DZ = 0 and 1. (I am using the slaw pedals.)

In the beginning this will feel a bit twitchy, but once you get used to it, you will have a much better and much more direct authority over your stick inputs and can work on your precision much better.

EDIT2: re-reading Rustbelt's comment, he said "be less conservative with your curves", and if he meant by that "add more curves", as explained above I would politely, but very strongly disagree. 🙂

EDIT3: There is one thing I forgot to mention in the video, which is also very important: have a relaxed attitude. This may sound odd, but can have a huge impact. For one, have a lose grip on the stick. Clinging the stick is very bad, as your muscles tense up and it is counterproductive to developing muscle memory, which is very important. And another important thing is to breathe even and relaxed. A heavy breath does send "signals" down your muscles and nerves, causes you to clinge to the stick more and tightens up everything in your body. Hence, if you observe yourself breathing a lot, heavily and clinging on to the stick, take a mental step back, calm yourself, re-focus your mind and re-try with a much more relaxed attitude. Many forget about this and end up fighting their own lack of composure. 😉 

 


Edited by IronMike
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10 hours ago, IronMike said:

EDIT3: There is one thing I forgot to mention in the video, which is also very important: have a relaxed attitude. This may sound odd, but can have a huge impact. For one, have a lose grip on the stick. Clinging the stick is very bad, as your muscles tense up and it is counterproductive to developing muscle memory, which is very important.

 

 

I can't express enough the importance of this.  I fly the Tomcat with an open hand.  Entering a BFM turn I start by closing my hand (this already starts loading up the AoA) then I pull my hand back.  Once in the general turn I want I adjust to a slightly open hand and maintain AoA by changing how open my hand is.

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When it comes to a warthog, especially when it doesn’t have an extension, I have to disagree with Iron Mike. 15 years ago when it came out it was a very good stick, but it’s now a very stiff, very short throw with a less than stellar resolution. Stock it makes over correction and Pilot Induced Oscillation on a non-fly by wire plane like the Tomcat way too easy. You may as well be flying with a PS4 controller stick.
 

A non-combat flight sim maker had a video about the how and the why of curves and why they apply. I’d post it but rules.

Personally I run a Sidewinder FFB2 with an extension and a custom grip, so for me I don’t use a curve on the tomcat but that’s only because the stick is moving the same distance as the “actual” stick being modeled. When I fly the F-16 with my warthog side stick, I put in a good amount of curve or it’s practically unflyable.

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25 minutes ago, RustBelt said:

When it comes to a warthog, especially when it doesn’t have an extension, I have to disagree with Iron Mike. 15 years ago when it came out it was a very good stick, but it’s now a very stiff, very short throw with a less than stellar resolution. Stock it makes over correction and Pilot Induced Oscillation on a non-fly by wire plane like the Tomcat way too easy. You may as well be flying with a PS4 controller stick.
 

A non-combat flight sim maker had a video about the how and the why of curves and why they apply. I’d post it but rules.

Personally I run a Sidewinder FFB2 with an extension and a custom grip, so for me I don’t use a curve on the tomcat but that’s only because the stick is moving the same distance as the “actual” stick being modeled. When I fly the F-16 with my warthog side stick, I put in a good amount of curve or it’s practically unflyable.

Fair enough. It's why my WH is collecting dust in a corner for years now, but mine additionally came with plenty of stiction issues, too.

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@IronMike
As it seem this went unnoticed, i'll link it here as well:
 


In short, should the full aft stick result in critical AoA overshoot? That is, should we be able to "oversteer" the F-14? 


Edited by captain_dalan

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Are the remaining features discussed in May but missed the last patch due to be released in today’s OB patch HB? 

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50 minutes ago, westr said:

Are the remaining features discussed in May but missed the last patch due to be released in today’s OB patch HB? 

Not sure which you all had in mind, but yes, there is a patch dropping today (if all goes as planned) that will introduce a list of fixes of course.

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6 minutes ago, IronMike said:

Not sure which you all had in mind...

I remember only pilot bodies were missing last time.

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6 minutes ago, draconus said:

I remember only pilot bodies were missing last time.

These will unfortunately still take longer, as Cobra is still dealing with the very sad loss of his close family member. We're very sorry about this, as we were thrilled to finally release them, but I would kindly like to ask you guys for your kind understanding and support for Cobra. Such things are horrible and I would appreciate your patience here to give Cobra the time to fully get back into the saddle, so to speak. Thanks a ton for that already in advance. It means a lot to me, to us, and most importantly to Cobra himself of course.


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@IronMike  Hey thx for the help with my query above, wasnt expecting a video but it proved "it is me" lol.  

Now im not sure about zero curves as my WH is desk mounted in f16 position - i have reduced the amount of force required by pre-compressing the min spring from 50mm down to ~35mm and it is relatively new so no sticktion as such.  But that day i was flying and whoa it was ying yang allday long a lot more than usual.  Seeing how smooth you had it clearly meant it was at my end.  So i will get back in the air and do some more practice.  Im fine with AArefuelling the curves allow really good control, it was like you showed descending to 4000 from say 20000 or vice versa, id be 3500 4300 3600 4400 3900 4100 with the slightest of stick really frustrating.  I was watching the VVI and the gauge and they are really sensitive, i will try watching the altimeter more as you said.  I guess im a HUD guy so looking down at gauges presents 3 issues with my brain - What is my speed, which gauge is that, what does the gauge say - this takes time to compute for each parameter speed, rate of climb/decent, altitude.  My 3 brain cells struggle with this because 1 is for me breathing 1 is for left hand 1 is for right hand, so if i add another thing on top of this causes an overload....

Anyway many thx will practice.

I note you are a Content Creator im going to look through all your vids and see if there is one on AOA.  I know what it is of course but getting on it from a 350knt break into the downwind before the back of the boat very difficult often im long long in the downwind, i can eventually land use DLC and all that but getting on AOA is troublesome.  So if your looking for a Video topic a Tips and Tricks on getting on AOA what to look for common errors etc etc it would be appreciated.  I have not seen any vids on tube really get into this.

I will post on your tube channel as this may have slipped down the forum page now.

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1 hour ago, GremlinIV said:

I have not seen any vids on tube really get into this.

Look for Case I recovery vids here:

 

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1 hour ago, GremlinIV said:

@IronMike  Hey thx for the help with my query above, wasnt expecting a video but it proved "it is me" lol.  

Now im not sure about zero curves as my WH is desk mounted in f16 position - i have reduced the amount of force required by pre-compressing the min spring from 50mm down to ~35mm and it is relatively new so no sticktion as such.  But that day i was flying and whoa it was ying yang allday long a lot more than usual.  Seeing how smooth you had it clearly meant it was at my end.  So i will get back in the air and do some more practice.  Im fine with AArefuelling the curves allow really good control, it was like you showed descending to 4000 from say 20000 or vice versa, id be 3500 4300 3600 4400 3900 4100 with the slightest of stick really frustrating.  I was watching the VVI and the gauge and they are really sensitive, i will try watching the altimeter more as you said.  I guess im a HUD guy so looking down at gauges presents 3 issues with my brain - What is my speed, which gauge is that, what does the gauge say - this takes time to compute for each parameter speed, rate of climb/decent, altitude.  My 3 brain cells struggle with this because 1 is for me breathing 1 is for left hand 1 is for right hand, so if i add another thing on top of this causes an overload....

Anyway many thx will practice.

I note you are a Content Creator im going to look through all your vids and see if there is one on AOA.  I know what it is of course but getting on it from a 350knt break into the downwind before the back of the boat very difficult often im long long in the downwind, i can eventually land use DLC and all that but getting on AOA is troublesome.  So if your looking for a Video topic a Tips and Tricks on getting on AOA what to look for common errors etc etc it would be appreciated.  I have not seen any vids on tube really get into this.

I will post on your tube channel as this may have slipped down the forum page now.

Glad it helped! I am not really a content creator though, I make this rather for you guys, out of that I barely ever make a video, just to not disappoint when looking for more from me. You will find how to land on a landbased runway though, which briefly touches on AOA, principal things to look out when landing (which in the end is not much different than trying to be just as precise and ahead of yourself as explained in the level flying vid.)

As for curves: your sweetspot will be somewhere between what I and Rustbelt said. But, maybe WH today not so much anymore, but with rather high end stick, I would still recommend to start with 0 curve and then work yourself up. You can just fast gauge some pre-tests by jumping in increments of 5, so 0, 5, 10, etc. Anything above 25 for pitch I would consider extreme. The point however is to find where you feel you have the most control with the smallest of inputs you can do. Your reference? The altitude you are trying to hold serves well.

In a Case1 to get onspeed fast isn't need. What is needed that you get on speed on the downwind, so that you can turn already onspeed. outside of that no stress, and even if you initiate your final turn slightly above or below onspeed, no worries, simply keep working on it till you hit the groove. And if in the groove still not onspeed, unless so far off that waving off is better, keep working on it. Don't overthink it. Usually you will lack a bit of trim up and throttle, and once you do, you get too fast, so you need to think ahead.

When you come out of the break, make sure your aircraft is setup properly, at 800 feet, gears flaps speedbrake and dlc, then first concentrate to descend to 600 feet and then to get onspeed. In the beginning fly long on the break. 2-3nm out. 5 even or 7 or friggin 10 if you need. Point being: give your downwind as much distance, as you need to get on speed while flying level. Don't listen (for now) to what others say about how far behind the boat you need to break. You break far behind the boat in the beginning. With time you will need less and less time to get on speed at 600 feet flying level, and thus shorten your break to somewhere between 0.5 and 1.5nm behind the boat, depending if alone, lead, wingman or further even, if for separation. 

I hope this helps a bit. And, most importantly. Don't worry about what wire you trap, in fact leave the darn hook up, and keep going round and round. Once you feel comfy with that, you can start working on perfecting your turns, hitting 450 at the 90°, shortening your groove, perfecting your glideslope, flying the ball and hitting the 3-wires and so and so on...

Happy training!


Edited by IronMike
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43 minutes ago, draconus said:

Look for Case I recovery vids here:

 

Yah cheers buddy looked around, there are a few on Case 1 and landings generally - getting on AOA is not really gone into other than "be on AOA".  I will go practice...

 

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12 hours ago, GremlinIV said:

Yah cheers buddy looked around, there are a few on Case 1 and landings generally - getting on AOA is not really gone into other than "be on AOA".  I will go practice...

There's not much to it. Most importantly, when you're set up for landing, you fly level first trying to catch the on-speed - which means getting that indicated AoA at 15 units (http://www.heatblur.se/F-14Manual/cockpit.html#angle-of-attack-indicator), and an amber donut (http://www.heatblur.se/F-14Manual/cockpit.html#approach-indexer) - then descend into the glideslope (3,5° for the Tomcat trapping on the carrier, 3° for the shore landing). So you just keep that 15 units AoA up to touchdown working your throttles all the time, while the stick keeps a stable nose up attitude and makes corrections esp. when there are airflow trasitions like gear down, flaps down, DLC on. There's also the E-bracket on the HUD in the landing mode (should be centered on the waterline at the HUD center) - it's a bit laggy but should be fine for learning and see where you're at - just don't get used to it :thumbup:

image.png

 


Edited by draconus

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The most important thing is to trim level flight while you get on speed AoA at down wind. Make sure you deploy DLC in neutral and have brakes out when trimmed level.

Bank turn into final and hold back the retract DLC as you turn. 

Line up and let the DLC fall into neutral again.

Minimal power adjustment, and use the DLC to correct for glide slope by referencing to the meatball. 

Meatball, Line up, DLC, Meatball, line up, DLC.

Bind DLC on an axis definitely helps.

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