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The new hold mode.


macedk

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The sas saturation warning seems to be happening even when you're not forced trimmed or using att hold? Is that intentional?  It's not so bad now for me as I've changed it to a non headache inducing cow moo but..

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On 5/19/2022 at 1:34 AM, Belphe said:

Works very well for me as well.

BTW, does INS drift have anything to do with Position Hold? The AP had significantly more issues establishing the "hover" after the INS deteriorated.

Is it possible to reset the INS while airborne/moving or do I need to be landed?

 

No, its based on GPS.

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Well after some time with it now I definitely find it easier since the update to enter a true zero speed hover using ATT than previously prior to the update. Once getting there before engaging ATT takes a good amount of left pedal along with using force trim. And making sure no serious drop in altitude - don't let it get much over 300 ft/min whilst getting the chopper stabilized. Then engage ATT and poof nice hover, just then check altitude is stable.

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On 5/19/2022 at 2:53 PM, mbits said:

So I've found it and modded to be a nice cow moo for now.

Wanna share how you did it?

Where is the file located?

How did you change it?


Edited by rayrayblues

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I put a wave file in my savedgames DCS folder \Sounds\Effects\Aircrafts\AH-64D\Cockpit\Tones\flt-ctrl.wav

I had to create those directories.

It might be that sound is used for more than just saturation though. Not sure. It's definitely stopped the long annoying tone.


Edited by mbits
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On 5/19/2022 at 5:47 AM, shrimpy_dikdik said:

Works well for me too. Important for me to get the trim nailed on first. I never had trouble before the update but this makes it a little more comfortable with just minor torque adjustments. There's a tiny little sway but nothing concerning. 

It works great for take off also. I turn on the att hold the second I'm light on the wheels before I am even off the ground and it lefts up steady as can be.

Finally someone can be next to me and I won't crash into them during take off. lol

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I understand that the SAS has only so much authority, but what I don't understand is exactly what is it trying to "correct"? A couple of times I established myself in a fairly stable hover or descent and when I trim the SAS starts beeping, after about 10 seconds it stops, sometimes this repeats itself eventually stopping. 
I get the feeling the SAS is fighting me but I'm not sure what it doesn't like. Perhaps I trim the pedals a bit too far in one direction and it wants to counteract this and finds it doesn't have authority and only when I retrim closer to where it thinks they should be displaced it stops the saturation alarm?
Yeah, when in ATT hold, I understand it is helping me maintain ATT due to external disruptive factors like wind. You can see the green symbol making fine adjustments. I can help it by bringing the trim closer to the green symbol. If I hold FTR to bring SCAS to my trim position, I lose the ATT hold. So it was doing its job.

But when not in ATT hold, yeah it beeps sometimes even when all are in the grey box authority, I don't know why. (It's more the FMC having its own idea of how you should fly 'smoothly', the SCAS are just the hydraulic actuators to carry out its bidding, IIUC.) SCAS is like a co-pilot trainer trying to 'wrestle' control from you to fly smoother. Things are fine when flying with speed - SCAS and pilot are in agreement. It's during those transitions from flying to hover or when I’m all over the place that it becomes a 'tango' between SCAS and pilot, and I'm not sure what it’s trying to do or who is right. Probably WIP.

"Hydraulic augmentation is provided by the Stability and Control Augmentation System (SCAS), which consists of hydraulic actuators controlled by the Flight Management Computer (FMC). The FMC provides rate damping to smooth flight control inputs and command augmentation. It also provides limited attitude and altitude hold capability for hands-off flying. The command augmentation system provides consistent control feel across the full range of helicopter airspeeds." (Pg 26)
Edited by GrEaSeLiTeNiN
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If you want to avoid the SAS fighting you as you maneuver the aircraft, press and hold the FTR the entire time you are maneuvering, and the SAS will essentially be disabled.  This also means the SAS won't get saturated and beep at you.

Be careful though, as the helo behaves very differently without the SAS "helping" you maintain stability.

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On 5/22/2022 at 1:45 AM, pii said:

It works great for take off also. I turn on the att hold the second I'm light on the wheels before I am even off the ground and it lefts up steady as can be.

For me I find that ATT hold-hover (IGE) from take-off isn't problematic. It's the en route flying (eg. >50knts) to an OGE hover that the helo 'misbehaves' and has much lasting pendular motion often resulting in the helo being all over the place, sometimes rolling 360; this even with the help of ATT hold. Yes it's pilot induced oscillation but the pendular response does seem relentless at times.


Edited by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

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What would be the best way when in a stable hover at 0 knots to yaw 90 degrees from the current heading with ATT engaged? I find if I just use rudders I'm really fighting the SAS but if I press and hold trim it can work sometimes but others gets a bit out of control..??

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I don't quite understand the ATT HOLD >40kts either. I trim for nose to tail which requires me to keep a ~3 degree left bank to maintain heading as "the ball" is shifted left but the moment I enable ATT HOLD the helicopter rolls out and starts drifting right. That's not an attitude hold. Attitude hold would allow me to fly in  circles if I wanted to, instead it negates all roll.

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24 minutes ago, spikenet said:

What would be the best way when in a stable hover at 0 knots to yaw 90 degrees from the current heading with ATT engaged? I find if I just use rudders I'm really fighting the SAS but if I press and hold trim it can work sometimes but others gets a bit out of control..??

I've been experimenting with gently making the change then pressing force trim.  If I do it quick its all bets off..

The main thing for me is that it disengages too easily compared to the previous patch, when I think it was trying to do less for you but was very handy for some stability and brief hands off. From what I understand you should be able to use att hold but it knows to let you adjust then settle again without it giving up.


Edited by mbits
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51 minutes ago, Belphe said:

I don't quite understand the ATT HOLD >40kts either. I trim for nose to tail which requires me to keep a ~3 degree left bank to maintain heading as "the ball" is shifted left but the moment I enable ATT HOLD the helicopter rolls out and starts drifting right. That's not an attitude hold. Attitude hold would allow me to fly in  circles if I wanted to, instead it negates all roll.

I wondered too at first. It's not the same as a fixed-wing ATT hold. At the moment it is just "something" that helps you hover when <5knts (easier in IGE) and holds your velocity (+/-2knts) when you are between 6-40knts as per instructions. Both require you to be very stable and trimmed first. You can engage ATT hold at >40knts with some roll. Say you are trimmed steady at 100knts 10deg bank and you engage ATT hold. If it holds, it will settle on a speed it is comfortable with, maybe say 93knts and maintain it (+/-2knts) and the bank angle. But you'll just go in a circle and can lose altitude depending. You won't go straight in attitude like in a fixed-wing. So I find the abbrev ATT a bit misleading? if you are coming from fixed-wings.


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The only thing that ATT HOLD >40 does for me at the moment is keeping the bank angle at 0. Since it's not a heading hold it should allow for trimmed maintained turns as well as flying in straight line when trimmed correctly, both in nose to tail and centered ball setups (the latter is possible). I don't think my "fixed wing past" should matter here as I simply follow the meaning of words: attitude hold should hold attitude.

Let's hope it's WiP

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4 hours ago, spikenet said:

What would be the best way when in a stable hover at 0 knots to yaw 90 degrees from the current heading with ATT engaged?

I think the official answer would be to press and hold the FTR button, make the heading change, then release the FTR button.  This will disable the SAS while you are repositioning the aircraft so it isn't fighting you, and reset the SAS to be centered on the new heading.

The problem with this, like you said, is that most of us are not used to the way the aircraft behaves when holding the FTR button, so it is easy to lose control of the aircraft.

What I was doing last night was disabling ATT Hold, performing my rotation to the new heading without touching the FTR, getting it settled, then re-enabling ATT Hold for the new heading.

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3 hours ago, Belphe said:

The only thing that ATT HOLD >40 does for me at the moment is keeping the bank angle at 0. Since it's not a heading hold it should allow for trimmed maintained turns as well as flying in straight line when trimmed correctly, both in nose to tail and centered ball setups (the latter is possible). I don't think my "fixed wing past" should matter here as I simply follow the meaning of words: attitude hold should hold attitude.

Let's hope it's WiP

 

Of course it is still WIP. From the patch notes on improvements to ATT Hold Mode they did not work on anything greater than 40 Knots for this last update.

 

Quote
  • Improved Velocity Attitude ude Hold mode (between 6 and 40 kts).
  • Initial work on Position (Hover) Attitude Hold mode (between 0 and 5 kts).

 

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I'm not that good for starters (get that out of the way 🙂 ) but the previous patch att hold was a revelation for me.  It was wonderful at making me look like I knew what I was doing.  I wonder if the new one is more realistic or not but I find it useless frankly. Unless you want to very carefully demonstrate a hands off hover while you eat lunch.

The previous iteration was holding me stable "enough" but letting me move around a bit which allowed me to land on raised platforms etc.  The new one pretends its going to do that then disengages just before I crash and burn.


Edited by mbits
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If you try to move around while you have ATT HOLD engaged you are "fighting" the system.

If you want to just get somewhat stable you just use Force Trim (Normal Trim), to trim your controls out. Sounds like that was what you did before we got ATT HOLD as an option.

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I'm fairly sure hold modes should permit cyclic etc without disengaging as much as it is currently.  When I revert to the previous patch att hold is reliable and really useful when combined with a semi stable trim. Now it disengages a lot.

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My guess is that it will disengage every time you exceed the limit it needs to be below to actually engage. Or if you move out of the position where you engaged the "Position Hold" mode, as the systems "thinks" you no longer need "Position Hold" since you are using your cyclic to "override" and move out of the position.

What you are trying to do can easily be done with the use of the "Normal Trim" and "Position Hold".

Get yourself into the hover position, trim out your controls so you can somewhat get below the limit. Activate the "Position Hold". Let the chopper settle in the spot. Then dissengage the "Position Hold". When you dissengage the "Position Hold", you can apply small cyclic inputs, as the chopper is already trimmed out and very stable.

Have you applied any curves to your cyclic stick? If not, I highly recommend doing so. Specially if you have a standard stick with no extra length. The apache is hyper sensitive if you are running a pure linear characteristic for you cyclic stick. There are some very good videos on youtube for recommended curves for the apache.

 

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Thanks I will keep that in mind when trying more.   Yes I'm always playing with curves and saturation etc. I had it dialled in nicely until now.

The fact is I found the previous att hold really useful and this one is not helping me.  That might just be because of my current flying style which might be wrong but it was quite the dramatic change between versions. I'm forcing myself to not revert at the moment but its hard as flight was easier and att hold was great then. I never really felt the need for perfect hovers so it worked very well for me as it disengaged less often. Now not only does it disengage a lot, I get beeped at when I'm not even using hold modes.  Had I not modded the sound I couldn't bare it.


Edited by mbits
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From what you are typing, you are either using the system in a non-optimal way, you are fighting against it. Or you have some bugs.

- I don't think I have ever been "beeped" at while flying, if it has, it's so rare that I have not noticed it. Wich is a way for the system to tell you that you SCAS is at it's limits of where it can operate, it's saturated.

- I'm not sure if there was any hold modes for hover before this latest patch. As Wags/ED stated that the hold modes was not implemented at launch. I tried using it myself, but didn't feel it did much. As much of the work was trimming out the chopper as you transitioned into hover. Hitting the ATT HOLD after that was done did not give me much. Except a box around the speed indicator 😁 I might be wrong, but I never noticed anything.

I just came to think of some things. Have you mapped all 4 trim (5 if you use trim reset) buttons? Force Trim Release (Normal Trim), ATT Hold, ALT Hold ( Not implented yet) and dissengage trim. The last one is not the same as trim reset. As it dissengage all HOLD Modes, ATT and ALT. Trim Reset resets all active trimsettings made by using Force Trim Release.
When you trim in normal flight, do you remember to center your stick and pedals before applying new inputs? This could explain you "beeps" if you for example forget to recenter pedals, as it will saturate you SCAS on the tailrotor, since you are not applying inputs because pedals has not been recentered after you have used trim. I did it myself a few times in the beginning. Hitting trim, centering my stick, but forgetting my feet. Just to experience nothing happening when trying to apply some torque to the tailrotor 😁

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I definitely got the long beep telling me the SCAS is saturated several times tonight.  Most of the time when pulling aft on the stick, and most of the time when performing evasive maneuvers.  However, you can even be sitting on the runway before taking off, and if you pull back on the stick all the way, you get the SCAS warning.  It appears the system does not have as much authority in the aft direction as it does in the forward direction, which is probably understandable considering you are pushing forward on the cyclic 95% of the time.

You should only get the warning if you are super aggressive on the cyclic, or if you have tried to make severe adjustments while in one of the hold modes, without using the FTR.

I can't get it to beep at me when I work the pedals aggressively on the ground, but clearly the SAS is all the way to the edge of the box and is over-saturated.  Not sure why not.

There was definitely a form of ATT Hold prior to this patch, though it wasn't complete.  It would do an okay job of keeping you in a hover, with a couple knots of drift, but the improved Position Hold is much better now, and lets me sit in one spot for half an hour, just monitoring the collective every so often.  If you are gentle enough on the collective you can climb and descend at a pretty good rate, as long as you ease onto and off of the collective.

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3 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

There was definitely a form of ATT Hold prior to this patch, though it wasn't complete.  It would do an okay job of keeping you in a hover, with a couple knots of drift, but the improved Position Hold is much better now, and lets me sit in one spot for half an hour, just monitoring the collective every so often.  If you are gentle enough on the collective you can climb and descend at a pretty good rate, as long as you ease onto and off of the collective.

Agreed with everything you said except for me the ATT Hold before this patch made a world of difference. I think it just happened to correct in the places I needed it. When I found it I went from all over the place at low level forever clipping the blades to a new found ability to put her down anywhere no trouble. That's what I've lost now. I wasn't bothered that it couldn't do a 0 speed positional hold (although thats cool). I used to be able to slow down a bit, whack att hold on and safe enough to do TSD work etc. Now it feels its all too sensitive and easy to disengage. I'll play with curves and my control and no doubt get it but it was a big change to its ease of use.


Edited by mbits
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