AH-64D - Controls gone whacky since OpenBeta 2.7.14.23966

[Roosterfeet]

Tonight I found things much better. The Apache behaved much more like it did at initial release. The only thing I can think of that I did differently was to make sure my controls and trim were centered before takeoff. I noticed in a quick mission that the rudder position at mission start was way off to the left. Try this before takeoff:

• move the cyclic
• move the rudder
• reset trim (left ctrl-t)
• hold force trim release for 5 seconds

Without any inputs, your controls should be centered like this:

Not this:

[mbits]

@RoosterfeetThanks. I have a feeling that was already a known thing to check for. I'll give it a try but I'm not convinced that's the cause of what people are experiencing here.

I notice your comments say you've had some roll issues for the last two patches, but this is specifically about flight being dramatically out of whack since the latest patch.

Edited May 21, 2022 by mbits

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

6 hours ago, Roosterfeet said:

Try this before takeoff:

Without any inputs, your controls should be centered like this:

Ermm.. this can't be right. The helo will naturally and correctly yaw right (just tried it) at takeoff if pedals are centered. The other diagram works for me.

Did more flying and the issues I have are:
a) It has a tendency to roll side to side like a boat. But this seems like the Apache's nature from day one. 
b) Transition from flight to hover often results in what seems (to me) like excessive fwd/aft pendular motion. Yes I understand that could come from pilot induced oscillation with fwd/aft cyclic action as I try to bring it to a standstill. But it does seem excessive and just undoable at times (I'm all over the place when that happens). I often spend such a long time trying to transition to hover for hellfires that I end up using Active Pause. 
c) Basically (a) and (b) feels like there is a lot of 'lasting momentum' like a pendulum. Some damping would help if that makes sense. 

I'm no pilot and I use a regular Warthog hotas placed on a table. So maybe it is what it is.  

[Baldrick33]

In my clumsy hands it feels like it accentuates pilot induced oscillation more so than it did. So quite possibly more competent pilots may not see such a change.

It is a bit more like the Harrier which rocks side to side like a boat in a hover in my hands but not so bad!

[Kharrn]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb GrEaSeLiTeNiN:

Ermm.. this can't be right. The helo will naturally and correctly yaw right (just tried it) at takeoff if pedals are centered. The other diagram works for me.

Did more flying and the issues I have are:
a) It has a tendency to roll side to side like a boat. But this seems like the Apache's nature from day one. 
b) Transition from flight to hover often results in what seems (to me) like excessive fwd/aft pendular motion. Yes I understand that could come from pilot induced oscillation with fwd/aft cyclic action as I try to bring it to a standstill. But it does seem excessive and just undoable at times (I'm all over the place when that happens). I often spend such a long time trying to transition to hover for hellfires that I end up using Active Pause. 
c) Basically (a) and (b) feels like there is a lot of 'lasting momentum' like a pendulum. Some damping would help if that makes sense. 

I'm no pilot and I use a regular Warthog hotas placed on a table. So maybe it is what it is.  

remark on your first sentence: Roosterfeet showed a "zero" setting before takeoff as far as i understand. All input centered and no trim. Its not meant to take off with this setting bc yes, you have to put in left pedal when advancing the collective up.

 

On the other stuff:

Using a Warthog stick as cyclic on my table (right side) and an X-55 throttle as collective. Rather cheap Thrustmaster TFRP pedals which work totally fine for me.

For the collective, i used the x-55 software to give it a little curve and a deadzone. In DCS i lowered the saturation a little and more curve. // Warthog has only a very little deadzone in DCS (to always get a 0,0 point to engage autopilot in some aircrafts). // Pedals with little deadzone and a curve in DCS; used the TFRP software to synchronize the pedals and put in a deadzone.

What i always do first is check all controls with a full movement BEFORE starting the engine (APU running). So collective full up/down; cyclic full degrees of movement and rudder full left/right and also brakes.

Before takeoff i do how described in the quick start manual on page 250 already aligned in the direction i want to take-off:

Zitat

Hovering Flight
With the Before Takeoff Check complete and the flight controls neutral, press and hold the force trim interrupted until the aircraft is light on the wheels (approximately 20% below IGE hover power on the PERF page) then release, allowing heading hold to engage. Maintain the acceleration cue in the center of the line-of-sight reticle with the cyclic, use pressure/counter-pressure on the cyclic to
maintain position and pressure/counter-pressure on the pedals to assist the aircraft in maintaining heading. Once the aircraft is established at 5-foot hover, interrupt the force trim as necessary for comfort and engage the hold modes as desired.

Rolling with high pitch input at speed above 100knots was reported as a bug as far as i know. Below that speed i personally dont have a lot of problems with roll that i can not counter before its happening.

Transition, especially at speeds of 80-100knots, to a hover work better every day i do try  and it is really great fun to brake hard, put the collective down and turn in on target

That said, i rarely used force trim interrupt (trim up) so far during flight, resulting in a lot of "SAS saturation" after the patch, so i think i have to change the way of flying and using "trim up". Oh and btw, i dont trim my peddals at this time, so have set them to "without spring and ffb" in the settings.

I hope this can be usefull and of help!

K

[Toni Carrera]

@Floyd1212 I will do what I can and perhaps make one use nVidia recording or something. I have heard Track recordings are unreliable

Toni

[Floyd1212]

There have definitely been some changes to the flight model and the way the SAS works with this latest update.  Where I felt like I was becoming a pretty good pilot, and would rarely crash the helo, I have crashed into the ground a few times since the latest patch, and have done more than one uncommanded barrel roll. 

I seem to get into the most trouble when trying to perform evasive maneuvers when a missile has been fired at me, or when I am trying to pull a 180 degree hard turn and decelerate at the same time.  I think what I used to be able to get away with as I man-handled the controls in these situations, is now getting me killed.

You might think of it like being a race car driver that has adapted to the way your car behaves, and you know how to put the car where you want it in the corner and control braking without locking up, and then a mechanic realizes the power steering and ABS wires have been unplugged all this time and decides to plug them in for you.  Needless to say, it's not going to be pretty until you have adapted to the new feel of the car.

[Roosterfeet]

1 hour ago, Kharrn said:

remark on your first sentence: Roosterfeet showed a "zero" setting before takeoff as far as i understand. All input centered and no trim. Its not meant to take off with this setting bc yes, you have to put in left pedal when advancing the collective up.

 

Precisely. I noticed that the default trim setting has some left rudder and a little left and back cyclic. On the ground, I centered up with a control wipeout and made doubly sure buy hitting force trim reset then holding force trim for 5 seconds, things felt subjectively better to me. Now it could be my imagination or whatever caused the improvement in handling could be unrelated and I'm chasing wild geese. But take a look at this track; something's amiss. Without touching the rudder or cyclic, if I press and release force trim, the cyclic trim gets set farther back and left each time. This doesn't happen if the cyclic trim is centered first. Now how can this affect flight if moving the cyclic centers the trim? No idea, it doesn't really make a lot of sense. I just wanted to throw this out there for others to try in case it helps.

AH-64 Trim Jank.trk

[monkie]

I consider myself a fairly decent helicopter sim pilot and relatively competent with all helicopters in the DCS world and in my opinion the last update certainly made me feel like I was much less able to control the helicopter confidently. Controllers can make a world of difference but once the individual gets some competency with their particular setup a change in the flight model will certainly be felt. I know that I had to readjust my curves and saturation again and still felt like the helicopter wasn't nearly as stable as before. 

I think a basic explanation of what the SAS is actually doing and what parts are a work in progress would go quite far in helping the community understand what is to be expected, until then we are all shooting in the dark. 

As far as the ATT mode, I found it sometimes held the hover and or pitch attitude solidly and sometimes the helicopter would start to drift and continued into uncontrolled flight without pilot input. Again without knowing exactly how this system should be properly used it's tough to make any contribution that can help with development.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

1 hour ago, Roosterfeet said:

Precisely. I noticed that the default trim setting has some left rudder and a little left and back cyclic. On the ground, I centered up with a control wipeout and made doubly sure buy hitting force trim reset then holding force trim for 5 seconds...

Ah yes, I misread that part. The default takeoff controls indicator (left pedal, slight bottom-left cyclic) seems to work me though (50% fuel, 5degC, full weapons, weight probably affects it).

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

1 hour ago, monkie said:

I think a basic explanation of what the SAS is actually doing and what parts are a work in progress would go quite far in helping the community understand what is to be expected, until then we are all shooting in the dark. 

As far as the ATT mode, I found it sometimes held the hover and or pitch attitude solidly and sometimes the helicopter would start to drift and continued into uncontrolled flight without pilot input. Again without knowing exactly how this system should be properly used it's tough to make any contribution that can help with development.

The Apache is my first helo. But I think I am beginning to understand ATT hold and SCAS better as I stare at the controls indicator. I hadn't paid attention to the SCAS before. My layman mental notes (correct me if wrong):
a)  ATT hold (hover/velocity) really needs the pilot's help to get into a steady state first (as explained in the vid tutorials). But engaging ATT hold after steady state is not superfluous as I imagined, since the SCAS does make micro corrections to maintain ATT hold, if you observe the green symbols doing their job.  
b)  Cyclic, rudder and SCAS symbols need to stay within SCAS workable limits or authority as they call it (the gray box). The (sim) pilot can help it by fine tuning trim so the cyclic and rudder symbols are as close as possible to the green SCAS symbols (after attaining ATT hold). Otherwise, if the SCAS symbol goes to the edge of the gray box, the beeping starts.

Yes, I think the FM has become less forgiving but I am also getting a little more used to it. I do hope still that there will be less pendular motion with future refinements.    

Edited May 21, 2022 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[mbits]

I don't know if its intentional/realistic or not but it isn't clear what's changed or to what extent based on the the short notes open beta testers have available.

I just had another go and it's like I'm in my first hour in the thing after having it since release day.  It would be pointless me trying missions right now. Back to flight school it is. 

The att hold really feels unusable unless all you wanted from it was to show in the right conditions you can go hands free in a nice perfect hover which almost looks like active pause.  I find now its a liability as it can disengage on you much easier than previously. Maybe thats all its for and I was using it wrong in its more lenient config before.

The previous patch had me taking advantage of att hold hovering good enough to pop up and attack from range with a few quick hands free moments and then landing on ships easily which I couldn't do at all before. 

This is two separate things I guess. att hold not staying on as much as it did and also just general flying stability issues (maybe scas related).

The pendulum rocking some have mentioned sounds like a good way to describe the flight confidence issue.  I used to practice whizzing around above a runway like a race track and do tight comfortable turns. I do that now and it feels like I'm asking for it to spiral into the ground.  I think I'm sadly going to have to just stop and wait if anything improves with the next update.

Edited May 21, 2022 by mbits

[mbits]

Quick update: I had no idea you could revert to a previous version. That's great thanks! Means I can now a. confirm that attitude hold was much better for me in 2.7.12 and b. just enjoy some missions again when I dont want to test the latest patch.

It's exactly what I thought.  Attitude hold used to just help stabilise you but not get you down to perfect 0 speed hovers.  It stays engaged which is safer, even if it doesnt get you into a total hover if does enough to make it useful and not dangerous.

The latest patch instability in general flying is probably more concerning but I haven't tested it enough but agree with most of whats been said here.

Edited May 21, 2022 by mbits

[pii]

On 5/19/2022 at 2:04 PM, Eldur said:

they're in a constant VRS ever since Bill Gates isn't in the top chair anymore,

Well, they are making more $$ than ever so I think they would disagree with you.  

18 hours ago, mbits said:

General flying is really edgy. It's just my experience but it sounds similar to the OP.  I was comfortable and progressing into confident flying in missions now I'm back trying to learn how to control the heli.

oddly this was my take on the first update. I had been dialing in the controls and prenticing prenticing prenticing and then it was all different after that update and had to reset my controls. But nothing after this latest patch, everything is still normal. weird!

[Toni Carrera]

To be honest, I would be embarrassed to show a video of my flying. I feel that all concerned would just say it is your flying causing the problem, not the sim 

However, I tried to play a mission in OpenBeta, and could bare get off the ground, and all the times I did, I could barely keep the helo under 90kts, even when I tried to keep her nose high, to scrub speed, she was up and down all over the place. It felt like Day One all the way back when it was released and I tried to fly the thing for the first time

I then, in Stable, played the same one mission all the way through, and for the first one ever in the Apache, I completed a mission, felt damn good too. It was https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3322077/ which was a fun mission

Anyway, I saved the Track File for the Stable, but only because it was the first success every in the Apache. I will try a simple Hot Start fly around the Airport in OpenBeta and if I am not too bad, I will save the track. I just do not want to put one on here where the first thing people will do is just blame my flying for the issue, when I know from experience a progression since day of release, that the issue is not my flying

I hope that makes sense

Toni 

Also, I know my issue is not Trim related as everything is centred as per the Controls Axis Indicators, and I do not fly with Trim engaged at any time during a 20m to 60m flight

Toni

[Niehorst]

Guys, imagine a RL apache pilot would has to steer with a warthog on a table without any extension!

The Flight Model of those modules want to be as realistic, as possible. When you're not willing to get your controls in the correct position and you don't try to recreate the controls mechanics (extension, tension etc...), why to hell would you expect to be able to fly this thing? (and not be flown by it?)

The messing around with curves etc. is always a work around and will always have it's downsides.

I admit, that those FM changes are always a new challenge, but with the right equipment, not that hard to adapt to.

I'm using a "gooseneck" extension. Right now about 40cm, will shorten it a little soon. (VPC base on the ground) and NO! curves. With this lenght I could even lower the saturation to get a steeper response and only need verly little cyclic inputs. With an equipment like that, it soon feels like your're wearing the apache and it does what ever you want.

 

This SCAS Saturation peep is in fact really annoying... 

[mbits]

@Toni CarreraIve never used stable. I was fine just one open beta version ago. As I assume you were based on your original post.

@NiehorstI don't think anyone here is saying it should be easy or that our controllers are ideal I'm not expecting an open beta not to change either.

This is simply about us discussing what we've found and trying to figure out what's made the latest patch so different in behaviour from the one before (2.7.14) for some. It's significant enough for me that I can't really use the new one. Maybe its an intentional and accurate change I don't know. Feels just much less stable and more difficult than it was. I might go back and try the new version again sometime but I might just wait for the one after and see how that is, as ofcourse its all a WIP.

Edited May 22, 2022 by mbits

[Baldrick33]

1 hour ago, mbits said:

This is simply about us discussing what we've found and trying to figure out what's made the latest patch so different in behaviour from the one before 2.7.14 for some.

Exactly that. The point being made is the flight model feels different post patch.

Of course it may change, of course it may become more difficult (or easier) as constant evolution is a massive part of the appeal of DCS. There will always be room for improvement in programming knowledge, software tools, data, hardware capabilities and simply man hours needed to devote to projects.

Feeding back our perception of changes when there is nothing to support such a change in release notes is important as it may be for a number of reasons:

1/ Exactly as planned - some changes under the hood that weren't considered significant enough to document

2/ Impact of changes that are documented - intentional

3/ Impact of changes that are documented - unintentional which need investigating

4/ An unrelated change in the build that wasn't meant to be there

Probably some others.

If there is some consensus that it has changed with exactly the same conditions - controller settings, mission settings (weight, loadout etc.) then it gives ED good feedback to investigate and report back their findings in my view. It is the benefit of an open beta.

 

 

[Toni Carrera]

@Roosterfeet Sort of not connected, but how did you get the moving elements of the Controls Axis indicator to be the green colour?

Thanks

Toni

[Floyd1212]

@Toni Carrera The green symbols in the Controls Indicator have been there for a while now, for everybody.  The green represents the inputs that the SAS is making to the flight controls in an effort to keep the helo stable. 

Do you not have the green indicators?  I suppose if you went back to fly the original stable version you might not have them as they weren't added until a later patch was released.

[Toni Carrera]

@Floyd1212I guess it might be because I use the mod which uses the white clear version that is down in the bottom left rather than top left. Got it from here

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3321356/

Anyway, thanks Floyd

Toni

 

[mbits]

A few people have mentioned rocking or pendulum. I've just had a go and found that at high speed (haven't tried slower) pitching down quite quickly to lose alt causes the green scas to do some crazy left and right.  I don't know what comes first. If it's cause or reaction but it lines up with the nasty rolls.

[giullep]

If can help…..I changed rudder from a thrustmaster to an logitech rudder..another world…now i can takeoff, and fly without any problem…life changer

[mbits]

3 hours ago, giullep said:

If can help…..I changed rudder from a thrustmaster to an logitech rudder..another world…now i can takeoff, and fly without any problem…life changer

I've just received the Virpil Ace Torq Pedals so will see how they help  Was using the paddles on a TWCS before.

[Sacarino111]

On 5/19/2022 at 4:48 PM, Toni Carrera said:

OK, well I guess it is just me then

NOpe, same here. Specially the Anti-Torque pedals; all over the place...

Saludos.

Saca111