Anti-torque pedals microswitch

[Dogmanbird]

Thank you both for answering. I guess I'll find out soon enough

Any chance you would know how the microswitches are actuated in the real heli? (where on pedal etc?)  I've built some fairly simple DIY pedals with brakes and thought I'd finished (for now lol) but might add some switches for this if makes things easier?

[AeriaGloria]

4 hours ago, Dogmanbird said:

Thank you both for answering. I guess I'll find out soon enough

Any chance you would know how the microswitches are actuated in the real heli? (where on pedal etc?)  I've built some fairly simple DIY pedals with brakes and thought I'd finished (for now lol) but might add some switches for this if makes things easier?

Someone sent me this video, they are under the front plate. Not that much space really 

They are in the top portion though. The real manual says, that if you wish to make pedal corrections while I’m heading hold mode, to press the bottom of the pedals with your heels. You can hear the very audible click they make. Would be nice to have this sound, even the trimmer sound copy pasted. But I’m afraid it would confuse people to have it play for when the pedals switch between modes, and when using the dedicated binding, especially as a pedal specific trim button 

[jojojung]

@AeriaGloria I dont have any effect with the "Enable/Disable by presence/absence of pedal movement" option for the microswitches. Do you know it the deadzone for the paddels does play a role in the way that yaw stabilization is put off only if the paddle movement is beyond the deadzone or is it just the raw input?

[Dogmanbird]

17 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

Someone sent me this video..............

wow, Perfect! Thank you very much

[AeriaGloria]

25 minutes ago, jojojung said:

@AeriaGloria I dont have any effect with the "Enable/Disable by presence/absence of pedal movement" option for the microswitches. Do you know it the deadzone for the paddels does play a role in the way that yaw stabilization is put off only if the paddle movement is beyond the deadzone or is it just the raw input?

  I have no idea. All I’ve heard is that’s it’s extremely sensitive unless you have very high end pedals. Only person I spoke to that chose that option, and got it to properly go from dampening mode (when pedals were moved) to heading hold mode (when pedals were still), had $400 dampened MFG crosswinds. 
 

  So if you’re using paddles like it sounds like you are on say T16000m, then it makes sense that both resolution of the axis and possible jittering from a not-so-new and/or lower end pot (sorry) would mean that DCS is always detecting some sort of movement. 

So if that’s the case, your getting the Yaw AP dampening that’s slowing down your yaw rate changes, but it’s not holding a specific heading 

[Hoirtel]

37 minutes ago, AeriaGloria said:

  I have no idea. All I’ve heard is that’s it’s extremely sensitive unless you have very high end pedals. Only person I spoke to that chose that option, and got it to properly go from dampening mode (when pedals were moved) to heading hold mode (when pedals were still), had $400 dampened MFG crosswinds. 
 

  So if you’re using paddles like it sounds like you are on say T16000m, then it makes sense that both resolution of the axis and possible jittering from a not-so-new and/or lower end pot (sorry) would mean that DCS is always detecting some sort of movement. 

So if that’s the case, your getting the Yaw AP dampening that’s slowing down your yaw rate changes, but it’s not holding a specific heading 

Hmm. I have dampened crosswinds and I'm sure it didn't work for me. 

[Dogmanbird]

In the real heli, would the micro switches deactivate a function (AP or trim?) and once deactivated it remains that way with or without feet fully on the pedals (with or without applying pressure to the top of the plate), until it's reactivated with a different button located elsewhere? 

.... or would the function reactivate once feet were removed from pedals?

Edited May 21, 2022 by Dogmanbird

[AeriaGloria]

1 hour ago, Hoirtel said:

Hmm. I have dampened crosswinds and I'm sure it didn't work for me. 

In what way did it not work? Did it stay in a particular mode? 

 

1 hour ago, Dogmanbird said:

In the real heli, would the micro switches deactivate a function (AP or trim?) and once deactivated it remains that way with or without feet fully on the pedals (with or without applying pressure to the top of the plate), until it's reactivated with a different button located elsewhere? 

.... or would the function reactivate once feet were removed from pedals?

 

As you say, re activate Heading hold on release of foot pressure. The Dampening mode of Yaw AP channel is ONLY active while pedal micro switches are ACTIVELY pressed. Once released Yaw AP channel is in Heading Hold mode. 

This is reflected in our module now, where when the Micro Switch bind (keyboard button letter “Y”) is actively pressed it is in damoening mode, and when that button/bind/switch released it goes back to dampening mode, with the only exception being if you have the “Disable by return to neutral” or “Disable by movement” selected, where it will ALSO changes modes based of pedal postion/movement. 

[Dogmanbird]

thanks again - can you just clarify the "Y" key binding for me? Are you saying dampening is on when Y is pressed as well as released?

 

[AeriaGloria]

55 minutes ago, Dogmanbird said:

thanks again - can you just clarify the "Y" key binding for me? Are you saying dampening is on when Y is pressed as well as released?

 

  The name of the Binding is “Autopiloy Yaw Channel Rudder Align, button - ON/OFF,” it is in Rudder Pedals and Flight Control categories and default keyboard key binding is Y for it. 
 

   This binding is literally the micro switches. Pressing and releasing it gives you complete manual control and they work identically as the micro switches in the real thing. With Yaw Channel On, and the binding Pressed(MicroSwitch pressed/feet on pedals) you have dampening mode, when the binding is released (micro switches released/feet off pedals) you have Heading Hold mode. 
 

For everyone with doubts about how to tell which mode they are, I have now included three examples in my autopilot guide. The first two speak or normal functional, but I will copy the last example here as it is the quickest and easiest way to check what mode your Yaw AP is in 

@Razorback this is also to answer your question 

“Quickest way to check the mode you are in in DCS, is to turn either direction and change modes through your binding or pedals according to your selected MicroSwitch Logic setting. Monitor the movement/deflection/displacement of the Yaw AP channel by looking at the left most window of the AP Channel deflection windows.  They are on the AP panel by your left knee, but it is easier to check AP Channel movement by having the control menu up by pressing Right Control + Enter. Deflection of each channel is shown on the top right, with yaw Chanel still being the left most window.

 

Start the turn either direction, If you enter Heading Hold mode, either by releasing the bind or movement/position of the pedals (according to your MicroSwitch Logic option selected), you will see the yaw channel deflect completely to the opposite direction of the turn and stay that way.

 

If you turn either direction and enter Yaw AP Dampening Mode, either by pressing/holding the bind or by pedal movement/position (according to the MicroSwitch Logic setting you have specifically chosen), You will see the deflection window initially jump in the opposite direction of the turn when the dampening mode is first activated while turning. After a fraction of a second the System will realize that the yaw rate is constant, and will return the Yaw AP deflection to neutral/middle position or near neutral as long as your turn/yaw rate is constant. In Dampening mode, there is basically no way for Yaw AP channel be constantly deflected at maximum left/right position for more then a short moment. It is impossible to continuously change Yaw rate enough in one direction to always have it deflected to the maximum left or right position.” 
 

I just spent 3 hours on my Autopilot Guide, trying to write simply every single possible thing that could be of help to someone who wants to learn about the system. I would appreciate the reading of “SECTION B PART I AND PART II” for all the information about the micro switches, pedal trimming, how the real thing works, and how they are simulated, how each option is different, and which option may be best for you. https://forum.dcs.world/topic/294627-personal-mi-24p-autopilot-and-weapons-guides/#comment-4973157

 

Feel free to ask any questions you may have or anything that is unclear in my guide, I am going on a well earned vacation and will respond when I can. But a vacation none the less

Edited May 21, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[admiki]

4 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

I have no idea. All I’ve heard is that’s it’s extremely sensitive unless you have very high end pedals. Only person I spoke to that chose that option, and got it to properly go from dampening mode (when pedals were moved) to heading hold mode (when pedals were still), had $400 dampened MFG crosswinds. 

Thank you so much for making me look like a douchebag.

 

4 hours ago, Hoirtel said:

Hmm. I have dampened crosswinds and I'm sure it didn't work for me. 

Can you explain how it didn't work? I might have solution.

[AeriaGloria]

28 minutes ago, admiki said:

Thank you so much for making me look like a douchebag.

 

Can you explain how it didn't work? I might have solution.

I have the same pedals so I’ll be a douchebag with you

[Nevyn]

That video you posted of the pedals did more explain this to me than anything else, so thanks Aeria.

[Hoirtel]

3 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

In what way did it not work? Did it stay in a particular mode?

Think I said to you before, with progressive pedal input, the control indicator progressively moved in the opposite direction. I was eventually in full deflection one way and control indicator showed full opposite. Heli turned like an oil tanker. 

The correct special option was checked before starting. I have only tried it that once. I may go back and try again after I have had a bit of time with manual. 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Hoirtel

[AeriaGloria]

2 hours ago, Hoirtel said:

Think I said to you before, with progressive pedal input, the control indicator progressively moved in the opposite direction. I was eventually in full deflection one way and control indicator showed full opposite. Heli turned like an oil tanker. 

The correct special option was checked before starting. I have only tried it that once. I may go back and try again after I have had a bit of time with manual. 

 

Hmmm. By Control indicator from Roght Control + Enter, you mean top left showing cyclic/pedals or too right showing autopilot deflection? And by progressive input, so you mean slowly increasing the pedal force. Or did you move it and keep it in place? It would make sense if you moved it all the way one way to max, DCS would stop detecting movement and put it in heading hold, but obviously that would be harder with less then full input. Not to throw Miki under the bus but maybe he’ll be able to help you better sorry. That enable/disable by pedal movement is the only option I have no experience with. 

 

2 hours ago, Nevyn said:

That video you posted of the pedals did more explain this to me than anything else, so thanks Aeria.

If it’s any help, part of the Yaw Autopilot check in the manual is this. Use the adjustment knob to create deflection, when putting feet on pedals, the deflection becomes nuetral/0. You would see the same thing in DCS, especially In heading hold mode. If you’re yaw rate is not rapidly changing, such as level flight, on the ground, or steady turn, and Yaw AP is giving constant input likely from trying to hold heading in heading hold, going to Dampening Mode will nearly center the Yaw Channel indicator. 
 

In real life, it appears this is not a big deal and very natural. It stabilizes you in dampening mode when feet are on, and when pilot takes feet off to relax it tries its best to maintain course

[admiki]

3 hours ago, Hoirtel said:

Think I said to you before, with progressive pedal input, the control indicator progressively moved in the opposite direction. I was eventually in full deflection one way and control indicator showed full opposite. Heli turned like an oil tanker. 

The correct special option was checked before starting. I have only tried it that once. I may go back and try again after I have had a bit of time with manual. 

 

Damper will fight you no matter what mode you have selected. More you input, more it will fight you. On the other hand, if you make it sloooooow, it might consider it as heading hold trigger and fight you again. And no matter what mode you have selected, you can always disable heading hold by pedal trim button (NOTE: you can have no trim selected, it will still work; NOTE NOTE: damper will again fight you).

Edited May 21, 2022 by admiki

[Hoirtel]

22 minutes ago, admiki said:

Damper will fight you no matter what mode you have selected. More you input, more it will fight you. On the other hand, if you make it sloooooow, it might consider it as heading hold trigger and fight you again. And no matter what mode you have selected, you can always disable heading hold by pedal trim button (NOTE: you can have no trim selected, it will still work; NOTE NOTE: damper will again fight you).

 

I tested slow and fast movement and always felt it fighting me. Surely "disable when pedals are in motion" should show as minor dampening like roll and pitch does when am actually moving the pedals. I am referring to the channel indicators shown on the top right (white lines). Any turn it seemed to just try and hold my previous heading. As I have non centering pedals I have disabled pedal trim, or so I hope as the new setup means you have to choose a pedal trim option, then select it off when you choose which button to trim from. Bit odd. I didn't have the microswitch button bound when I tried it however. Didn't think I needed it. More testing needed probably! 

[admiki]

4 hours ago, Hoirtel said:

I tested slow and fast movement and always felt it fighting me. Surely "disable when pedals are in motion" should show as minor dampening like roll and pitch does when am actually moving the pedals. I am referring to the channel indicators shown on the top right (white lines). Any turn it seemed to just try and hold my previous heading. As I have non centering pedals I have disabled pedal trim, or so I hope as the new setup means you have to choose a pedal trim option, then select it off when you choose which button to trim from. Bit odd. I didn't have the microswitch button bound when I tried it however. Didn't think I needed it. More testing needed probably! 

OK, I see your problem. One thing that got me too is that you can't just move pedals to trim for turn and then fix them. Doing that will just cause new, slightly changed heading hold. You need to "pump" them all the time. I found it easier to just hold pedal trim button until I am happy with my new heading.

[AeriaGloria]

5 hours ago, Hoirtel said:

I tested slow and fast movement and always felt it fighting me. Surely "disable when pedals are in motion" should show as minor dampening like roll and pitch does when am actually moving the pedals. I am referring to the channel indicators shown on the top right (white lines). Any turn it seemed to just try and hold my previous heading. As I have non centering pedals I have disabled pedal trim, or so I hope as the new setup means you have to choose a pedal trim option, then select it off when you choose which button to trim from. Bit odd. I didn't have the microswitch button bound when I tried it however. Didn't think I needed it. More testing needed probably! 

 

33 minutes ago, admiki said:

OK, I see your problem. One thing that got me too is that you can't just move pedals to trim for turn and then fix them. Doing that will just cause new, slightly changed heading hold. You need to "pump" them all the time. I found it easier to just hold pedal trim button until I am happy with my new heading.

Miki is right. Probably! 
 

You don’t need to select pedal trim option, you can have it as whatever you want if it is off. 
 

I believe there were people on the Russian forums talking about the yaw channel Implementation after release. Some Mi-8 pilot said that more realistic then the return to neutral for heading hold set up would to have heading hold active any time pedals were still, no matter how much they were deflected right and left. Probably on of the reasons we have that mode. 
 

Miki, since you use both pedal movement option and Micro Switch binding, what has more authority over changing mode? Or is, whatever’s changes modes the last, decides current mode? For example, if I select same pedal movement option as you. But have a switch assigned to micro switches, that holds it in position, let’s say dampening mode. I wonder if keeping the pedal still would then force it back into heading hold despite switch? I should just try it out 

 

And everyone I was a bit wrong about the Micro Switch (Y) binding earlier. After some experiments last night, I realized it does not work exactly like micro switches in real thing, but as a on/off. Whatever mode you are currently in for Yaw AP, pressing the bind will switch the mode for duration of the bind. When released you will go back to mode you were in before pressing button. Didn’t realize this until being in dampening mode, and pressing it made me go into heading hold. A bit surprised, but maybe that is more useful then what I thought before 

Edited May 22, 2022 by AeriaGloria

[admiki]

8 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

 

Miki is right. Probably! 
 

You don’t need to select pedal trim option, you can have it as whatever you want if it is off. 
 

I believe there were people on the Russian forums talking about the yaw channel Implementation after release. Some Mi-8 pilot said that more realistic then the return to neutral for heading hold set up would to have heading hold active any time pedals were still, no matter how much they were deflected right and left. Probably on of the reasons we have that mode. 
 

Miki, since you use both pedal movement option and Micro Switch binding, what has more authority over changing mode? Or is, whatever’s changes modes the last, decides current mode? For example, if I select same pedal movement option as you. But have a switch assigned to micro switches, that holds it in position, let’s say dampening mode. I wonder if keeping the pedal still would then force it back into heading hold despite switch? I should just try it out 

 

And everyone I was a bit wrong about the Micro Switch (Y) binding earlier. After some experiments last night, I realized it does not work exactly like micro switches in real thing, but as a on/off. Whatever mode you are currently in for Yaw AP, pressing the bind will switch the mode for duration of the bind. When released you will go back to mode you were in before pressing button. Didn’t realize this until being in dampening mode, and pressing it made me go into heading hold. A bit surprised, but maybe that is more useful then what I thought before 

 

OK, now you got me into thinking. I haven't notice switch causing mode changing, so I'll have to test further. 

I believe that holding the switch down will disengage heading hold for as long as it pressed, regardless of what I do with my pedals, but like I said, I will have to test further.

[admiki]

Quick test.

Pedals microswitch logic:

Microswitch logic relies on movement rate, not movement amplitude. You can go all the way from full left to full right and back, if you do it slow, it will never drop out of heading hold mode.

Pedal "trim" button (" " are here to point that it can be set to not actually trim pedals, depending on your setup):

Button will disengage heading hold and keep it that way as long as it pressed, pedal movement pays no factor. If anything, it will lessen the amount of dampening AP does.

Turning and pumping pedals to make sure I'm in dampening mode, press button and it just keeps going. Releasing button while pumping pedals keeps it in dampening mode. So, I would say it is an on/off switch, working in paralel with pedals logic.

So, I will keep it this way,because I have two ways of selecting desired modes and directions.

 

[AeriaGloria]

23 minutes ago, admiki said:

Quick test.

Pedals microswitch logic:

Microswitch logic relies on movement rate, not movement amplitude. You can go all the way from full left to full right and back, if you do it slow, it will never drop out of heading hold mode.

Pedal "trim" button (" " are here to point that it can be set to not actually trim pedals, depending on your setup):

Button will disengage heading hold and keep it that way as long as it pressed, pedal movement pays no factor. If anything, it will lessen the amount of dampening AP does.

Turning and pumping pedals to make sure I'm in dampening mode, press button and it just keeps going. Releasing button while pumping pedals keeps it in dampening mode. So, I would say it is an on/off switch, working in paralel with pedals logic.

So, I will keep it this way,because I have two ways of selecting desired modes and directions.

 

Damn this is interesting thank you for the test! I thought of trying the disable by pedal movement like your set up, but I’m happy only having ONE thing that I COMPLETELY control change the modes

So basically, 

1. If micro switch logic is set to disable by pedal movement, it relies on pedals moving at a fast enough rate to disengage heading hold. I.e, slowly moving pedals won’t affect heading hold being on 

2. Micro switches/pedal trim button (keyboard Y), when pressed changes mode of Yaw AP as long as it is pressed. As long as it is pressed, pedals cannot change mode. If button is released, control is returned to pedals on decision of Yaw AP channel mode. 
 

Is it possible that’s what happening? But man. This whole pedal movement option really is for the experimenters, seems to me if you were happy with it before keep in disable by setting pedals to nuetral. And if like me just want manual control with a switch, just set automatic off and assign bind to switch. 

 

[admiki]

You are correct on all points.

Again, I keep both options open in case my hands are busy with something else, but most of the time I use switch to control modes. Considering I didn't use yaw AP at all because of auto trimming, this is an improvement on my side

 

[Hoirtel]

I've just been testing manual microswitch and this performed as expected for me. However as I previously only switched the yaw AP channel on for cruise I still prefer to fly with it off altogether most of the time I'm not a huge fan of holding the button down all the time. However when I do use it I'm enjoying the extra control, maybe I just need more practice. Don't feel the need to retest pedals in motion mode as this performed the same way as manual without pressing the button. I'm not that slow on the pedals... Any faster, or pumping, isnt how I've learnt to fly. Even in combat or on the range. Just for interest how often is this channel used realistically? All the time? I always use pitch and roll channels although I can fly without. Hardly ever use alt unless cruising and even then I generally don't need it. Might be doing it wrong though. Thanks to @admikiand @AeriaGloriafor the posts. Been an interesting thread. 

Edited May 22, 2022 by Hoirtel

[Krez]

I want to thank AeriaGloria for helping me to understand the changes by putting them in context.

My setup
WinWing Orion F/A-18 stick and throttle
Thrustmaster TFRP rudder.

Special Options are set as follows.

Stick Trimmer Mode: Instant Trim

Pedals Trimmer Mode: Instant Trim

Pedals Microswitch Logic: Automatic Off

Pedals: Do not Trim

Yaw channel is on.

I bound the microswitch "Y" to a HOTAS button.

Flying the Mi-24 is so much easier now that I understand what everything is doing and how they interact with each other with regards to the AP channels.

Again, thank you.