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How dependent is the pilot on the WSO?


sirrah

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Not sure if this helps answer your question but iirc there was an ABC reporter that was the first reporter to ever fly on a air force combat mission in the wso seat of a f-15 strike eagle (With no flying experience at all). So if i had to say because of that i guess the wso is used to only manage the weapons/sensors and help out with other things hence the name Weapon Systems officer 

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23 hours ago, Krez said:

If the WSO was a pilot, he would wear a Pilot's badge, not a Combat Systems Officer's badge.

The WSO may even have a civilian or commercial pilot's license, but he's not a pilot in the Air Force.

Great argumentation No matter what you know and what you learn, what you wear is important;) I have to borrow a pilot uniform from my younger brother - I will be a pilot: D

18 hours ago, sprak74 said:

Not sure if this helps answer your question but iirc there was an ABC reporter that was the first reporter to ever fly on a air force combat mission in the wso seat of a f-15 strike eagle (With no flying experience at all). So if i had to say because of that i guess the wso is used to only manage the weapons/sensors and help out with other things hence the name Weapon Systems officer 

Another argument is getting smarter ...

 

Well, since the reporter was seated in this place, in fact this place is only for random people who just happen to come across. Why training etc? After all, you can always put a reporter there on a combat mission ...


Edited by Nahen
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2 hours ago, Nahen said:

Świetna argumentacja. Nieważne, co potrafisz i czego się nauczyłeś, ważne jest to, w co się ubierzesz;) Musze pożyczyć mundur pilota od mojego młodszego brata - będę pilotem:

 

Using Google translate to have a conversation from English to Polish isn't ideal.

It's not a great argument. It's the only argument. WSO's are not pilots in the U.S. Air Force.

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27 minutes ago, Krez said:

Using Google translate to have a conversation from English to Polish isn't ideal.

It's not a great argument. It's the only argument. WSO's are not pilots in the U.S. Air Force.

Once again - I have not written once that the WSO is a pilot by the standards and allocations of the USAF.
From the very beginning, I say that the WSO is a person who has undergone flight training - he can fly a plane and, if necessary, is able to take the helm and fly the F-15E. Therefore, in its part of the cockpit there are duplicated controls.

If you think that WSO has no idea about flying, that he is not trained in flying training, then your problem. But you can always believe that reporters are hired to fly on the second seat of the F-15E ...

Coming back to the topic of this thread - The pilot is so dependent on WSO that as of today the F-15EX does not actually need WSO. But he has a second seat to transport reporters if necessary 😉

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Because we are referring to a military aircraft, we must refer the people in the aircraft as being in the military.

Pilots are pilots.
WSO's are Combat Systems Officers.

A Combat Systems Officer, even if he has a private or commercial pilot's license, is not a military pilot.

By your standard, thousands of military personal who are not pilots can be called pilots because they went to IFT.


Edited by Krez
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2 hours ago, Krez said:

Because we are referring to a military aircraft, we must refer the people in the aircraft as being in the military.

Pilots are pilots.
WSO's are Combat Systems Officers.

A Combat Systems Officer, even if he has a private or commercial pilot's license, is not a military pilot.

By your standard, thousands of military personal who are not pilots can be called pilots because they went to IFT.

 

And you continue yours ... Yes, you are right, the second seat in the F-15E is not for a pilot, is not for people who can pilot a plane, only the for guy who has a uniform ...

Not only that, the manufacturer of this plane put there an unnecessary set of controls only for earn (always this is two sticks, throttles and pedals sold) - probably not even connected them, because there are sit here people who do not know what it is. And reporters ofcourse.

Congratulations...

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Just because there is a set of flight controls in the back, doesn't make him a pilot. If they take a crew chief for a ride or some VIP or journalist, they won't become pilots either, just because they're riding in the back seat and have flight controls their and might even be allowed to take control mid-flight.

The WSO in the USAF is not a pilot and does not have a pilot license and thus is normally not allowed to fly the aircraft. That applies to WSOs in the F-15E as well as to WSOs in the B-1 or B-52.

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On 5/25/2022 at 1:08 PM, Nahen said:

Great argumentation No matter what you know and what you learn, what you wear is important;) I have to borrow a pilot uniform from my younger brother - I will be a pilot: D

The badge in this instance showcases that the pilot graduated UPT and have the official qualifications, training and skill to pilot an aircraft, to operate it safely and effectively in operational environments and handle emergencies as well. In case of a Strike Eagle, the pilot will have the ability to fly it tactically in combat, fly close formation, refuel, fly low level routes and deal with a plethora of different emergencies. They can do it consistently, safely and in an effective manner, even in challenging conditions.

 

On 5/25/2022 at 1:08 PM, Nahen said:

Well, since the reporter was seated in this place, in fact this place is only for random people who just happen to come across. Why training etc? After all, you can always put a reporter there on a combat mission ...

I'm not sure what you're talking about but it's also irrelevant to the debate.

 

On 5/25/2022 at 4:19 PM, Nahen said:

From the very beginning, I say that the WSO is a person who has undergone flight training - he can fly a plane and, if necessary, is able to take the helm and fly the F-15E. Therefore, in its part of the cockpit there are duplicated controls.

 

WSOs don't have the same flight training syllabus that pilots do. WSOs don't train to land from the backseat, they don't train to actually fly the aircraft in tactical scenarios and any kind of situation. WSOs are trained to be active part of the crew even when it comes to admin and tacadmin flying, they have the required aeronatical knowledge to help the pilot effectively aviate but they aren't trained to do it themselves. They can take part in the navigation, help the pilot with fuel management, complying with ATC/legal regulations during the flight (paying attention the altitude, airspeed, airspace and any other constraints they may have), they can give directions during BFM/AAR and so on. In emergencies, they can take control, if the pilot gets fixated on the target, busts the MSA on a strafe, doesn't get back to TF limits on a low level, gets a severe medical problem, becomes disoriented in any way, they can even take control away from the pilot. But that's an emergency, not part of normal operations and that doesn't make them a pilot.

 

A pilot is someone who has the skill, knowledge and qualifications to operate an aircraft. If the WSO is flying then the pilot relegates flying duties to the WSO but that doesn't mean the WSO will become the pilot. He will be the WSO, who's flying the aircraft. Flying an aircraft doesn't mean that you're a pilot. The WSO can also act as the pilot in emergencies (if the pilot becomes incapacitated or dies) but that's obviously not part of normal operations.

 

On 5/25/2022 at 7:46 PM, Nahen said:

Not only that, the manufacturer of this plane put there an unnecessary set of controls only for earn (always this is two sticks, throttles and pedals sold) - probably not even connected them, because there are sit here people who do not know what it is. And reporters ofcourse.

 

A pilot isn't someone who knows how to fly a plane, it's someone whose job is to fly one. That assumes they have the required skill, experience, training and qualifications to do so. In the case of the USAF, it's someone who's graduated UPT and is a winged pilot. The WSO can fly but that won't make him the pilot.

 

On 5/25/2022 at 7:50 PM, =475FG= Dawger said:

So, no, there is no point.

Of course there is. Debunking misinformation and educating people is a noble goal.

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14 minutes ago, Digitalvole said:

Hehe I was hoping this thread would tell me if I could control most/all the F15E’s systems from the front seat.

The thread had other ideas! isn’t the internet a funny place. 😉

It was pretty much answered here by @Deano87 in the first reply to my OP:

 

 

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3 minutes ago, sirrah said:

It was pretty much answered here by @Deano87 in the first reply to my OP:

 

 

Thanks missed that in two pages of posts arguing about weather or not a WSO is a pilot.

Is it ironic that the point of the thread is whether or not the pilot can also be a WSO but from the front seat?


Edited by Digitalvole
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1 minute ago, Digitalvole said:

Thanks missed that in two pages of posts arguing about weather or not a WSO is a pilot.

Is it ironic that the point of the thread is whether or not the pilot can also be a WSO but from the front seat?

 

Hehe true

Threads in general tend to derail 😉. Especially once the initial question is answered.

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3 hours ago, Fromthedeep said:

 

 

Of course there is. Debunking misinformation and educating people is a noble goal.

There isn't much of that going on here. Neither side here has the slightest clue about the subject being discussed and it definitely is evident.

 

 

 

 

EDsignaturefleet.jpg

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5 hours ago, Fromthedeep said:

WSOs don't have the same flight training syllabus that pilots do. WSOs don't train to land from the backseat,

And the pilots are ??

Oh, and one more thing for landing visibility "from the first cabin"? Have you heard of ILS and limited visibility landings? The second seat has everything you need, you don't need to see anything through the glass. And in order to take advantage of this, navigation is the key.

5 hours ago, Fromthedeep said:

A pilot isn't someone who knows how to fly a plane, it's someone whose job is to fly one. 

Tell me, what is my task of "flying a plane" when I am doing a private pilot's license to occasionally fly for recreational purposes? In your opinion, I'm not a pilot? BRAVO!!

Forgive me, but you write such stupid things that half the world of pilots reads this and laughs. Especially the recreational and sports pilots ones.

 

Again - in the back seat of the F-15E there are people who can fly airplanes who have undergone aviation training in "driving" an airplane, air navigation, radio communication and everything that is needed to fly an airplane.
The fact that they are not fighter pilots, do not have "pilost wings" on the mudura, are not called pilots does not change the fact that they have these skills, they acquired them in the training process which is confirmed by appropriate certificates.

I understand that the driver is only the one who drives professionally, and the one who uses the car to drive children to school and go shopping - having the driving license - is not a driver.
So much for my part, because I can see that some things are not understandable here.


Edited by Nahen
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2 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

There isn't much of that going on here. Neither side here has the slightest clue about the subject being discussed and it definitely is evident.

Well then prove me wrong. 

 

3 minutes ago, Nahen said:

And the pilots are ??

The pilots do actually, there are some IPs who are trained to land from the backseat.

5 minutes ago, Nahen said:

Tell me, what is my task of "flying a plane" when I am doing a private pilot's license to occasionally fly for recreational purposes? In your opinion, I'm not a pilot? BRAVO!!

 

Read and try to comprehend the entire paragraph and pay attention to the context. We're talking about professional pilots in the context of military aviation. If you had read the second sentence, you would have seen why that's a false equivalency. If you are flying as a recreational pilot with a PPL, you are still formally trained and legally certified to be a pilot in an aircraft within certain constraints. If you have your wife/husband flying with you and they have no formal training or certifications, they can still be flying the aircraft but that won't make them pilots. Even if you informally and unofficially teach them all they need to know to safely operate the aircraft. They would be passengers who are flying an aircraft. 

 

12 minutes ago, Nahen said:

Again - in the back seat of the F-15E there are people who can fly airplanes who have undergone aviation training in "driving" an airplane, air navigation, radio communication and everything that is needed to fly an airplane.

No, they don't. WSOs are not trained to fly the aircraft and they aren't trained to be pilots. Pilots are trained to be pilots, CSOs learn different skillsets that allow them to meaningfully contribute to whatever platform they end up in, flying isn't one of this. They can get some sticktime depending on what platform they are flying (and they get to solo in IFS) but that still doesn't make them pilots. Pilots are much more skilled in operating the aircraft, they have formal training that allows them to do it consistently in all kinds of situations and they are legally certified to do so. 

 

14 minutes ago, Nahen said:

The fact that they are not fighter pilots, do not have "pilost wings" on the mudura

What even is "the mudura?" 

15 minutes ago, Nahen said:

these skills, they acquired them in the training process which is confirmed by appropriate certificates.

They don't have the same skills as pilots and their training doesn't revolve around actually flying the aircraft. They can do that in certain situations but that will be very limited compared to the time pilots spend on honing their flying skills. WSOs have to focus on learning how to do their actual job and not flying the aircraft. All of this is confirmed by the WSO that you quoted from.

 

20 minutes ago, Nahen said:

I understand that the driver is only the one who drives professionally, and the one who uses the car to drive children to school and go shopping - having the driving license - is not a driver.

No, a driver is someoneone who has completed the necessary training and obtained a driving license. If you go shopping without a license, the authorities will reward you with a hefty fine.

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1 hour ago, Mars Exulte said:

Reading this thread nearly gave me an aneurysm. It wasn't full blown, just a faint tingling behind the eyes.

Yep... it derailed beyond all recognition...

Almost makes me feel guilty for starting it.. Almost..

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Does he have a valid AF Form 8 qualifying him for that specific flight duty on that air frame as a pilot, if not he ain't the pilot, end of discussion.  Nobody flys qualified without a valid form 8, and you don't get one of those forms and maintain it current without possessing written flight orders, going through constant evaluation, both sim and examinations, and taking periodic check rides.  Nobody is a "qualified" pilot or crewman without that validated form, nobody.  Neither are you a WSO without yours.

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On 5/29/2022 at 1:39 PM, sirrah said:

Yep... it derailed beyond all recognition...

Almost makes me feel guilty for starting it.. Almost..

Well, it was not your fault. I for one find the title accurate and this topic interesting. But now this thread might be renamed to "What is a pilot ?" And you should start a new one like "How dependent is the frontseater on the backseater?". Sad.

edit: this is no offence to those who helped defining what makes a pilot. That's interesting too.


Edited by Tom Kazansky
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On 5/24/2022 at 3:16 AM, Nahen said:

I am not interested in officer ranks, markings etc. used in USAF aviation. WSO is a man with documents confirming the completion of aviation training as a result of which he can fly / drive the planes for which he has been trained. For normal people, this means nothing less than a PILOT.

Oh jesus, what have I walked into??? 

Sorry (not sorry) but no.  A WSO is not an F-15E pilot.  They are NOT trained to fly the airplane even though some can and do on an informal basis.  But it does not make them Strike Eagle pilots.  Could they land it from the backseat - yes probably some could (and have).  But it's completely against regulations and is prohibited unless in an emergency.  In fact there are a lot of WSOs who are not interested in flying the jet and are content with doing their job well - and their J-O-B is NOT flying the jet.  

So for "normal people" a WSO is not a USAF pilot much less specifically a SE pilot. 

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